Christian Viewpoint On The Gun Debate

[JosephZ]

If civilians should have the amount of ammo in their guns limited, then why not the police? After all, isn't the reasoning that "high capacity guns are designed to kill as many people as possible in the shortest amount of time possible"? Why do police need such a thing???

Because law enforcement officers need to have the ability to neutralize a threat as quickly as possible.

 

[Aldebaran]

I don't have the time to do the research that would be involved to find out which ones people would still be able to purchase. In the meantime you can go to sites like Guns.com and see what would be available. Here's a link that limits semi-automatic rifles to 10 or fewer rounds on that site. Semi-Automatic Rifles :: Guns.com You will still have to go through and weed out the ones with pistol grips and other accessories that fall under the ban.

Here's a semi-automatic rifle that Rugar has come out with that is specifically designed to be compliant in states with assault weapon bans.

Ruger® PC Carbine™ Autoloading Rifle Model 19101

ruger.com

I'm sure other manufatures will follow suite and begin producing comliant models similar to some of the more popular "assault style" semi-automatic rifles that are currently available as more states pass laws against purchasing them

About that Ruger: It's a pistol-caliber carbine, which means it's not a rifle. Also, the only thing about it that makes it "state compliant" is that it comes with a 10 round magazine instead of standard-capacity magazine that would typically hold 15-17 rounds. It's removable, so a higher-cap one could be used in its place.

 

[Aldebaran]

Because law enforcement officers need to have the ability to neutralize a threat as quickly as possible.

And a civilian who is fighting to stay alive doesn't?

 

[JosephZ]

About that Ruger: It's a pistol-caliber carbine, which means it's not a rifle.

It's a rifle.

Also, the only thing about it that makes it "state compliant" is that it comes with a 10 round magazine instead of standard-capacity magazine that would typically hold 15-17 rounds. It's removable, so a higher-cap one could be used in its place.

It also doesn't have a pistol grip, threaded barrel, or a shroud to protect the shooters hand from heat.

 

[Aldebaran]

It also doesn't have a pistol grip, threaded barrel, or a shroud to protect the shooters hand from heat.

None of which will do a thing to save lives.
Pistol grip means nearly nothing.
A threaded barrel simply allows for the addition of a suppressor, which I've never seen used in a mass shooting.
A shroud hardly does anything to protect from heat. That's what the stock is for.

 

[JosephZ]

A threaded barrel simply allows for the addition of a suppressor, which I've never seen used in a mass shooting.

Virginia Beach shooter killed 12 using silencer and high-capacity magazine. Now, lawmakers might look at both.

A handgun with a silencer and high-capacity magazine has no "purpose other than increasing the gun’s lethality" for a mass attack, a gun-reform advocate said.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Aldebaran]

Virginia Beach shooter killed 12 using silencer and high-capacity magazine. Now, lawmakers might look at both.

A handgun with a silencer and high-capacity magazine has no "purpose other than increasing the gun’s lethality" for a mass attack, a gun-reform advocate said.

www.nbcnews.com

Well, that's one. Hardly a reason to change gun design for an entire nation, or even a single state.

 

[RDKirk]

I don't have the time to do the research that would be involved to find out which ones people would still be able to purchase. In the meantime you can go to sites like Guns.com and see what would be available. Here's a link that limits semi-automatic rifles to 10 or fewer rounds on that site. Semi-Automatic Rifles :: Guns.com You will still have to go through and weed out the ones with pistol grips and other accessories that fall under the ban.

Here's a semi-automatic rifle that Rugar has come out with that is specifically designed to be compliant in states with assault weapon bans.

Ruger® PC Carbine™ Autoloading Rifle Model 19101

ruger.com

I'm sure other manufatures will follow suite and begin producing comliant models similar to some of the more popular "assault style" semi-automatic rifles that are currently available as more states pass laws against purchasing them

There are several manufacturers with 9mm carbines in their inventories. Carbines can come in either rifle or pistol cartridge types. I've been looking at that particular Ruger myself. And I've mentioned the Ruger Mini-14, which is a carbine using the .223 rifle cartridge.

 

[RDKirk]

About that Ruger: It's a pistol-caliber carbine, which means it's not a rifle. Also, the only thing about it that makes it "state compliant" is that it comes with a 10 round magazine instead of standard-capacity magazine that would typically hold 15-17 rounds. It's removable, so a higher-cap one could be used in its place.

About that Ruger: It's a pistol-caliber carbine, which means it's not a rifle. Also, the only thing about it that makes it "state compliant" is that it comes with a 10 round magazine instead of standard-capacity magazine that would typically hold 15-17 rounds. It's removable, so a higher-cap one could be used in its place.

A carbine is a shorter-barreled rifle.

 

[Aldebaran]

A carbine is a shorter-barreled rifle.

Right, but is it still considered a rifle when it doesn't use rifle ammo?

 

[RDKirk]

Right, but is it still considered a rifle when it doesn't use rifle ammo?

Yes, a carbine is still a rifle even if it shoots a pistol round.

However, as a practical matter, pistol rounds peak at carbine barrel lengths. Pistol rounds don't carry enough propellant to be practical in longer barrel lengths, so you don't see them.

 

[Photon Guy]

I don't know the exact number of semi-automatic rifle models that exist, but if most happen to fall into that category, then I'm fine with it.

Most hunting rifles are semi-automatic, particularly if you're hunting medium or large game you might often need a quick follow up shot.

 

[Aldebaran]

Most hunting rifles are semi-automatic, particularly if you're hunting medium or large game you might often need a quick follow up shot.

Being semi-auto helps cut down on perceived recoil too.

 

[Photon Guy]

[re-reads the thread title]
As long as you are willing to accept public shootings and the deaths of children (or anyone) as collateral damage for your politics, we really have no common ground for discussion.

We can reduce or eliminate public shootings and the deaths of children and other innocent people without having more gun control.

 

[Aldebaran]

We can reduce or eliminate public shootings and the deaths of children and other innocent people without having more gun control.

Serbia managed to do it all the way until just recently when they had their very first school shooting, and Serbia has the largest gun-owning public in Europe.

 

[JosephZ]

Serbia managed to do it all the way until just recently when they had their very first school shooting, and Serbia has the largest gun-owning public in Europe.

That's because they have decent gun control laws in place.

People over the age 18 may own firearms only with a permit issued after a thorough background check with police. A medical exam is also mandatory and must be repeated every five years.

There must be no history of crime, mental disorder, alcohol or illegal substance use, firearms must be stored locked in a designated gun cabinet, and may be confiscated if the owner is found to be irresponsible.

Gun owners are also required to pass a training course and a questionnaire about gun legislation.

Having a permit to own a firearm does not itself allow the bearer to carry the weapon anywhere outside the home. Concealed carry permits are very difficult to obtain.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2023-05-03/factbox-serbia-school-shooting-what-are-the-countrys-gun-laws

This Reddit post goes into more detail:

You need to fulfill the following conditions:

Over 18yrs.

Serbian or a permanent resident.

Health check.

No prior conviction of serious criminal acts like injuries, assaults, murder, robbery and similar.

No conviction for disturbance of peace that requires jail time in the last four years, (so fights, threats, fighting a cop and similar).

You need to pass a security check, cops talk to your neighbors, coworkers, boss, family to see if you are a stable member of society.

You have a training certificate.

Have a just cause for holding a weapon (three ways: personal safety - you need to have proof that your life may be in danger, hunting - you need to be a member of a hunting society, sports - you need to be an active member of a shooting club).

You have a way to safe keep the weapon at home, meaning a gun cabinet or safe box that only you and no one else from the household can open (and cops do come to your home to check this).

If you stop fulfilling any of these they can (and will) take away your weapon.

If you want to carry it in public, you need to have a serious threat against you made. You ask the police for permission, then they evaluate if the threat is serious enough. And it must be concealed out of sight to not disturb people around you.

https://www.reddit.com/r/serbia/comments/wuibyt

 

[Photon Guy]

• Require registration and a license for each gun that a person owns;

That would make gun ownership into a privilege not a right which would be a blatant violation of the 2A.

• Have a minimum age limit of 21 to purchase a handgun and require a hunting license for purchases of rifles or shotguns by adults under 21 who are not in the military or law enforcement; and

If you can serve in the Army at 18 you should be able to buy guns at 18, including handguns.

• Require training and a proficiency test for the type of gun being purchased.

Just like with registration and licensing that would make gun ownership into a privilege not a right.

None of the above would take away a person's right to keep and bear arms and they will still have the ability to purchase guns for hunting, target shooting, and protection.

Yes it would as it would no longer be a right but rather a privilege.

 

[Photon Guy]

I've already pointed out that all those "cosmetic" details make the difference for a combat weapon.

But why couldn't you have those cosmetic details on an M-14 in addition to that M-14 being a full automatic to be used in the Army? You've talked about how the cosmetic details make a difference in weapon functionality but that has nothing to do with whether or not a weapon is a semi automatic or a full automatic and why a fully automatic M-14, with or without the cosmetic details, wouldn't be appropriate for the Army.

 

[Photon Guy]

Exactly. That's why I said I haven't seen any proposals for banning rifles for simply having a pistol grip.

But to ban a rifle because it has a pistol grip and an adjustable stock is also a silly thing to do.

What's your reasoning behind making that a requirement?

Because allowing the police and military to use magazines that hold over an X number of round and to not allow citizens to use those same kinds of magazines is a double standard.

 

[Photon Guy]

If they did, nobody would use anything else for hunting...because Ar-15 style weapons are relatively inexpensive.

That depends on what you're hunting. If you're hunting deer a .30-06 would be more appropriate because of its greater power. If you're hunting large bears it would be foolish to use an AR-15, you would want a .375 H&H Magnum at least. Indeed lots of people use .458 Winchester Magnums and up when hunting game of that sort. If you're hunting ducks a shotgun works best because of the spread.

One big difference that makes the AR-15 less suitable for most hunting is that it's a carbine.

Again that depends what you're hunting. A carbine would be perfectly fine for hunting varmint.