Christian Viewpoint On The Gun Debate

[Photon Guy]

As long as we have the death penalty, innocent people will continue to be put to death for crimes that they did not commit. This happens when people are wrongly convicted. The question is how many innocent lives are you willing to sacrifice in the process, because there will be some.

You do have a point there and it is a good argument for abolishing the death penalty all together, but if we had a foolproof way of knowing whether somebody is guilty or not it would be a different story. No we do not have a foolproof way of knowing for sure and we never will so Im speaking hypothetically.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Depends on what kind of gun reform and regulation we're talking about, if a Christian should be in support of it or not.

What kind of gun reform and regulation would be permissible for a Christian to support?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

You do have a point there and it is a good argument for abolishing the death penalty all together, but if we had a foolproof way of knowing whether somebody is guilty or not it would be a different story. No we do not have a foolproof way of knowing for sure and we never will so Im speaking hypothetically.

That sounds like re-stating the argument. If there isn't a foolproof way of determining with absolute certainty a person's guilt, that means an innocent person can always be put to death when the death penalty is an option; shouldn't that render the death penalty unacceptable?

And given the state of the American prison system overall, which is quite terrible, abolishing the death penalty along with major prison reform seems like not just the right thing to do, but a moral imperative and social necessity.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JosephZ]

How is a pistol grip not a mere cosmetic feature? What does it do to the gun to alter its function?

A rifle with a pistol grip gives the shooter more stability and allows them to fire the rifle more quickly and accurately than a rifle without one. On an AR15 type weapon it also allows for more control and speed when changing magazines.

 

[Aldebaran]

A rifle with a pistol grip gives the shooter more stability and allows them to fire the rifle more quickly and accurately than a rifle without one. On an AR15 type weapon it also allows for more control and speed when changing magazines.

Not from my experience.
I've even heard it from so-called experts in the mainstream news that a pistol grip allows a shooter to shoot more easily from the hip. What a joke! If you try firing a rifle that has a pistol grip at hip level, you have to turn your wrist at such an angle that it is not at all comfortable to do. What a pistol grip does do is make it somewhat more comfortable to shoot from eye level, which is the position a rifle is meant to be fired from- regardless of what they're shooting at.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Not from my experience.
I've even heard it from so-called experts in the mainstream news that a pistol grip allows a shooter to shoot more easily from the hip. What a joke! If you try firing a rifle that has a pistol grip at hip level, you have to turn your wrist at such an angle that it is not at all comfortable to do. What a pistol grip does do is make it somewhat more comfortable to shoot from eye level, which is the position a rifle is meant to be fired from- regardless of what they're shooting at.

Absolutely spot on - additionally most rifles, like the shotgun above have hand grips. A pistol grip is just a variation made for comfort.

 

[Photon Guy]

What kind of gun reform and regulation would be permissible for a Christian to support?

-CryptoLutheran

For one thing Christians should not be against all guns period because of hunting and because the Bible justifies hunting and hunting is done with guns.

 

[Photon Guy]

That sounds like re-stating the argument. If there isn't a foolproof way of determining with absolute certainty a person's guilt, that means an innocent person can always be put to death when the death penalty is an option; shouldn't that render the death penalty unacceptable?

And given the state of the American prison system overall, which is quite terrible, abolishing the death penalty along with major prison reform seems like not just the right thing to do, but a moral imperative and social necessity.

-CryptoLutheran

Perhaps the death penalty should be abolished altogether for that very reason, because we don't want to execute innocent people which will inevitably happen if we do have the death penalty, but that is a topic for another thread and for another discussion.

 

[Photon Guy]

A rifle with a pistol grip gives the shooter more stability and allows them to fire the rifle more quickly and accurately than a rifle without one. On an AR15 type weapon it also allows for more control and speed when changing magazines.

Well that can certainly help with hunting, accuracy is key when hunting and if you're hunting medium or large game you often need a quick follow up shot.

 

[Photon Guy]

None - this was settled when the Constitution and its Amendments were written.

Not that I disagree with you but Im talking from a Christian perspective not an American perspective.

 

[JosephZ]

I've even heard it from so-called experts in the mainstream news that a pistol grip allows a shooter to shoot more easily from the hip. What a joke!

Yes, that's laughable.

A pistol grip is just a variation made for comfort.

Not on an AR15 and similar assault style weapons. The pistol grip on an AR15 allows you to release the magazine with your trigger finger without ever removing your hand from a grip. This allows someone with a little practice to exchange an empty magazine with a full one in around a second. Try doing that with a Mini-14 with a standard fixed stock or other semi-automatic rifle.

Well that can certainly help with hunting, accuracy is key when hunting and if you're hunting medium or large game you often need a quick follow up shot.

It also helps in killing humans more efficiently as well.

 

[Aldebaran]

It also helps in killing humans more efficiently as well.

Then it's ultimately up to the person using it to decide whether they are going to use it for hunting or for killing humans. That means default of killing humans lies with the person holding the gun rather than the gun itself.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Yes, that's laughable.

Not on an AR15 and similar assault style weapons. The pistol grip on an AR15 allows you to release the magazine with your trigger finger without ever removing your hand from a grip. This allows someone with a little practice to exchange an empty magazine with a full one in around a second. Try doing that with a Mini-14 with a standard fixed stock or other semi-automatic rifle.

It also helps in killing humans more efficiently as well.

Tell me about the difference again.

Colt AR magazine release

Ruger mini 14 Magazine release

the reader will note BOTH are less than an in from the trigger guard.

 

[JosephZ]

Tell me about the difference again.

That 's a mini-14 with a pistol grip and an aftermarket magazine release. In my comment I said try doing that with a Mini-14 with a standard fixed stock. Your example shows how a pistol grip benefits the shooter and allows them to reload faster than they could with a semi-automatic rifle without a pistol grip. In this case, the mini-14.

 

[Eschatologist]

To be honest, those "cosmetic" features do increase the combat capability of the gun above the level of other semi-automatic rifles.

Sure, the receiver of an AR-15 style rifle isn't much different in combat capability from the receiver of a Ruger Mini-14, but by the time you've added a large-capacity magazine and other implements, it's a significantly better weapon for the purpose of assaulting human beings.

Those "cosmetic" features exist on combat weapons because they do make a difference in combat. Otherwise the Army could just use a fully automatic Mini-14.

The US military uses the M4 carbine, which is a variant of the AR-15, but it significantly differs from most AR-15s that civilians can buy. Soldiers don't typically use magazines any larger than the standard size. The M4 can be set for semi-auto fire or 3-round burst.

M4s may often be equipped with similar accessories to the ones you'll see on civilian owned AR-15s, but they outperform most of these weapons. A civilian with a vertical grip and a drum magazine on an AR-15 is not going to be better than a typical soldier with a M4, but that's less to do with the weapon and more to do with training. All the fears people have about accessories and large mags miss the mark, when the real issue is that a lot of people aren't armed and aren't trained how to use a weapon. Whether a mass shooter has a drum mag or some accessory on their rifle, it's not going to make that much of a difference in terms of lethality if their targets aren't also armed. Most mass shootings don't even involve rifles and instead involve handguns. It's easier to try and pass a ban on rifles, however, since the Supreme Court hasn't yet ruled in favor of limiting rifle bans (but has limited handgun bans).

In terms of self-defense, magazine limits for handguns or rifles ultimately benefit criminals, if they know that a law-abiding citizen only has a certain number of bullets to fire before reloading.

 

[Eschatologist]

That sounds like textbook slippery slope fallacy.



Do you agree that it is preferable to lessen evil even if we cannot completely eliminate it? Or should we not bother with mitigating against evil at all if we can't eliminate it altogether?

-CryptoLutheran

I guess this all depends on what regulation you're proposing. Magazine limits don't make people safer. Banning rifles (even "assault rifles") doesn't make people safer. Registration of weapons just makes it easier for the government to seize weapons if it wants to disarm people for one reason or another. Red flag laws are usually so broad that they can be weaponized against people for political or personal reasons.

So, the greatest evil we face is usually the government itself or criminals (who won't follow the various laws you make).

The root of evil isn't guns. It's centralization of power (the government) and a lack of morals (violent criminals). Neither of those can be fixed with laws. At best, we can work towards developing a better mental health system to lower the amount of homeless and to intervene when someone is a danger to themselves and others. That would probably lower mass shootings while also lowering crime in general.

 

[Eschatologist]

That sounds like re-stating the argument. If there isn't a foolproof way of determining with absolute certainty a person's guilt, that means an innocent person can always be put to death when the death penalty is an option; shouldn't that render the death penalty unacceptable?

And given the state of the American prison system overall, which is quite terrible, abolishing the death penalty along with major prison reform seems like not just the right thing to do, but a moral imperative and social necessity.

-CryptoLutheran

The prison system is definitely terrible in certain states. It's insanely expensive to incarcerate someone in much of California, for example. If prisons were a lot more meager in their amenities there, it would be a hell of a lot cheaper.

Prisons are one of the few systems that I support full socialization of, since private prisons usually make ridiculous profits and can create an incentive for longer sentences (when officials have financial connections to the companies involved).

 

[Eschatologist]

A rifle with a pistol grip gives the shooter more stability and allows them to fire the rifle more quickly and accurately than a rifle without one. On an AR15 type weapon it also allows for more control and speed when changing magazines.

That is true, but it doesn't mean that law-abiding citizens should be prohibited from having them.

 

[Eschatologist]

It also helps in killing humans more efficiently as well.

A lot of things make killing people more efficient. A gun is more efficient than a knife, for example.

Nonetheless, the efficiency a tool provides in lethality isn't a valid reason to ban it when the tool is related to a Constitutional right.

 

[ViaCrucis]

For one thing Christians should not be against all guns period because of hunting and because the Bible justifies hunting and hunting is done with guns.

But that seems like a straw-man. I really don't know many, Christian or otherwise, making an argument of banning all firearms period. Even in countries which have largely outlawed weapons or have very tight restrictions, legally owning a firearm for hunting is still a thing. So I don't understand how that is even an argument worth making.

-CryptoLutheran