The indwelling presence

[Carl Emerson]

Who here has said we receive part of the Spirit?

Friend I am very happy to engage with folks who will unpassionately process scripture but in the OP I made it clear that theological positions are not what I am looking for.

That requires following reason - which is biblical.

 

[sawdust]

Friend I am very happy to engage with folks who will unpassionately process scripture but in the OP I made it clear that theological positions are not what I am looking for.

That requires following reason - which is biblical.

You didn't answer my question.

And your OP stated:

I am keen for some members to respond to this thread who are strong in biblical theology - I am not looking for denominational voices.

I don't adhere to any particular denomination. What I have said in this thread is based on biblical teaching I have received. If you think anything I have said is purely denominational then please point it out so I can know what you mean by such statements.

 

[Carl Emerson]

You didn't answer my question.

And your OP stated:

I don't adhere to any particular denomination. What I have said in this thread is based on biblical teaching I have received. If you think anything I have said is purely denominational then please point it out so I can know what you mean by such statements.

Maybe I am not making myself clear enough.

What I am looking for is responses to the OP.

I am not looking for alternative teaching, but I welcome biblical objection to what I have put forward.

Does the OP violate biblical exegesis - if so how ???

 

[sawdust]

Maybe I am not making myself clear enough.

What I am looking for is responses to the OP.

I am not looking for alternative teaching, but I welcome biblical objection to what I have put forward.

Does the OP violate biblical exegesis - if so how ???

Apart from what the new birth is, I haven't disagreed with what you have said. So I fail to see what you think this "alternative teaching" is. The only other place I would possibly disagree with your OP is you seem to imply the manifestation of the Spirit (ie. the seven spirits) should be instant but maybe I'm misunderstanding you there. This has been the crux of my latest posting with you. While the baptism itself is instant, the manifestation of the Spirit (the 6 attributes listed in Isaiah) is a process because it is not our possession but Christ's possession. We need to make it our own possession by grace through faith and that transfer (from Christ to us) takes time.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.


I don't consider your OP is exegesis. Exegesis explains the meaning of something. You simply made statements as to what you think to be true. Not implying there is anything wrong with that either, that is how we discuss.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Apart from what the new birth is, I haven't disagreed with what you have said. So I fail to see what you think this "alternative teaching" is. The only other place I would possibly disagree with your OP is you seem to imply the manifestation of the Spirit (ie. the seven spirits) should be instant but maybe I'm misunderstanding you there. This has been the crux of my latest posting with you. While the baptism itself is instant, the manifestation of the Spirit (the 6 attributes listed in Isaiah) is a process because it is not our possession but Christ's possession. We need to make it our own possession by grace through faith and that transfer (from Christ to us) takes time.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.


I don't consider your OP is exegesis. Exegesis explains the meaning of something. You simply made statements as to what you think to be true. Not implying there is anything wrong with that either, that is how we discuss.

Excellent - I appreciate your response.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes - I think that the matter comes down to definitions.

However the issue I want to focus on in this thread is the spiritual abilities that God gives believers at rebirth as recorded in Isaiah 11.

Where are you seeing "spiritual abilities that God gives believers at rebirth" in Isaiah 11? The chapter is about the Messiah, and what God will do through Him. The Messiah will judge (Isaiah 11:3-5, 13-16), there will be the renewal of all creation (Isaiah 11:6-9), and God will bring in the "remnant" from among the nations (Isaiah 11:10-12).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Carl Emerson]

Where are you seeing "spiritual abilities that God gives believers at rebirth" in Isaiah 11? The chapter is about the Messiah, and what God will do through Him. The Messiah will judge (Isaiah 11:3-5, 13-16), there will be the renewal of all creation (Isaiah 11:6-9), and God will bring in the "remnant" from among the nations (Isaiah 11:10-12).

-CryptoLutheran

Many of us stick to the truth that the trinity can not be divided.

Nor can the Father or the Spirit be divided.

So the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit period.

Isahah 11 gives detail regarding His aspects.

Jeremiah refers to His aspects.

That He has seven aspects (Spirits) is referred to 4 times in Revelation.

To suggest we receive only part of the Holy Spirit is the issue.

I do not believe this to be true.

Of course we can resist Him, but He is resident in His fullness.

Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Many of us stick to the truth that the trinity can not be divided.

Of course the Trinity cannot be divided.

Nor can the Father or the Spirit be divided.

Of course.

So the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit period.

Yes, I agree.

Isahah 11 gives detail regarding His aspects.

Isaiah 11:2 you mean? Sure, I can accept that these things can be described as aspects of the Holy Spirit.

Jeremiah refers to His aspects.

That He has seven aspects (Spirits) is referred to 4 times in Revelation.

There are a number of ways people have sought to interpret and understand the meaning of "seven spirits", though this is the first time I've encountered this interpretation.

I'll be honest, it's one of those things that I regard as unresolved. There are times when Scripture says something and it doesn't seem all too clear as to the meaning, and I don't necessarily marry myself to a particular view. This is an example of one of those. I don't know what the Apocalypse is exactly getting at with this wording, it is unique and peculiar to the Apocalypse, I'm not even aware of use of this language among early Christian commentators and theologians.

It's something I'd want to do more study about before I weigh in on it.

To suggest we receive only part of the Holy Spirit is the issue.

That would be a deeply problematic suggestion. I believe the full and entire Person of the Holy Spirit makes His residence with us, and He brings with Himself faith. So that the one who has faith has the Holy Spirit, the one who has the Holy Spirit has faith. Through Word and Sacrament God works to create and to sustain and strengthen faith: It is the Holy Spirit who does this.

I do not believe this to be true.

Of course we can resist Him, but He is resident in His fullness.

Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Right.

But I'm still left confused by the use of Isaiah 11 as a reference to "abilities believers receive".

I can understand now that you are probably talking about verse 2, but even if we agree for the sake of argument that these are "aspects of the Holy Spirit" calling these "abilities" seems odd to me.

There are certainly many charisms--gifts--which the Holy Spirit provides for us. Scripture mentions many, and I doubt that it should be regarded an exhaustive list. But I'd never think of it in terms of the Holy Spirit giving us "abilities". That comes across as a bit like saying we get superpowers. I wouldn't consider the many and diverse gifts of the Spirit as abilities, but as gifts; and the Spirit provides them as needed and when needed.

All believers, having received the Holy Spirit connected as He is with the waters of Holy Baptism (John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Titus 3:5), have the Holy Spirit living in them, and His work in, over, and through our lives is diverse and myriad. He provides gifts, and He is at work conforming us to the image of Christ, He works faith in us, He strengthens us and keeps us in Christ, He bears witness to the word, illuminating us and renewing us and healing us with the word of God.

I think Dr. Luther explains this all quite wonderfully where he writes in the Third Article of the Second Part of the Large Catechism (which I, as a Lutheran, do confess),

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us. Therefore sanctifying is nothing else than bringing us to Christ to receive this good, to which we could not attain of ourselves.

Learn, then, to understand this article most clearly. If you are asked: What do you mean by the words: I believe in the Holy Ghost? you can answer: I believe that the Holy Ghost makes me holy, as His name implies. But whereby does He accomplish this, or what are His method and means to this end? Answer: By the Christian Church, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. For, in the first place, He has a peculiar congregation in the world, which is the mother that begets and bears every Christian through the Word of God, which He reveals and preaches, [and through which] He illumines and enkindles hearts, that they understand, accept it, cling to it, and persevere in it."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Carl Emerson]

Of course the Trinity cannot be divided.



Of course.



Yes, I agree.



Isaiah 11:2 you mean? Sure, I can accept that these things can be described as aspects of the Holy Spirit.



There are a number of ways people have sought to interpret and understand the meaning of "seven spirits", though this is the first time I've encountered this interpretation.

I'll be honest, it's one of those things that I regard as unresolved. There are times when Scripture says something and it doesn't seem all too clear as to the meaning, and I don't necessarily marry myself to a particular view. This is an example of one of those. I don't know what the Apocalypse is exactly getting at with this wording, it is unique and peculiar to the Apocalypse, I'm not even aware of use of this language among early Christian commentators and theologians.

It's something I'd want to do more study about before I weigh in on it.



That would be a deeply problematic suggestion. I believe the full and entire Person of the Holy Spirit makes His residence with us, and He brings with Himself faith. So that the one who has faith has the Holy Spirit, the one who has the Holy Spirit has faith. Through Word and Sacrament God works to create and to sustain and strengthen faith: It is the Holy Spirit who does this.



Right.

But I'm still left confused by the use of Isaiah 11 as a reference to "abilities believers receive".

I can understand now that you are probably talking about verse 2, but even if we agree for the sake of argument that these are "aspects of the Holy Spirit" calling these "abilities" seems odd to me.

There are certainly many charisms--gifts--which the Holy Spirit provides for us. Scripture mentions many, and I doubt that it should be regarded an exhaustive list. But I'd never think of it in terms of the Holy Spirit giving us "abilities". That comes across as a bit like saying we get superpowers. I wouldn't consider the many and diverse gifts of the Spirit as abilities, but as gifts; and the Spirit provides them as needed and when needed.

All believers, having received the Holy Spirit connected as He is with the waters of Holy Baptism (John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Titus 3:5), have the Holy Spirit living in them, and His work in, over, and through our lives is diverse and myriad. He provides gifts, and He is at work conforming us to the image of Christ, He works faith in us, He strengthens us and keeps us in Christ, He bears witness to the word, illuminating us and renewing us and healing us with the word of God.

I think Dr. Luther explains this all quite wonderfully where he writes in the Third Article of the Second Part of the Large Catechism (which I, as a Lutheran, do confess),

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us. Therefore sanctifying is nothing else than bringing us to Christ to receive this good, to which we could not attain of ourselves.

Learn, then, to understand this article most clearly. If you are asked: What do you mean by the words: I believe in the Holy Ghost? you can answer: I believe that the Holy Ghost makes me holy, as His name implies. But whereby does He accomplish this, or what are His method and means to this end? Answer: By the Christian Church, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. For, in the first place, He has a peculiar congregation in the world, which is the mother that begets and bears every Christian through the Word of God, which He reveals and preaches, [and through which] He illumines and enkindles hearts, that they understand, accept it, cling to it, and persevere in it."

-CryptoLutheran

Hey greatly appreciate your reasoned response.

I would have thought the function of being indwelled by a certain Spirit is for the purpose of expressing the character of that Spirit through you.

Now I am particularly focusing on this matter because I believe that folks need to know what is available to them as saved individuals regardless of which of the 9 gifts may be available.

This is also a response to the cessationists who hold to a giftless church - and that theology tends to make the church a memorial to a vibrant faith that once was.

This is also a response to ardent Pentecostals who tend to consider those who dont manifest certain gifts as less spiritual if saved at all.

We seem to have lost sight of the full appreciation of what it means to have Christ within.

Does that not in the Greek mean 'the anointing' within ?

Does that not make Isaiah 11:2 even more pertinent ?

I am trying to restore understanding of the vast impact of being indwelled by Christ who moved in most of the 'gifts' before the church was born.

It seems Paul saw how Jesus was working through early believers who were gifted by the indwelling Jesus when he presented the nine gifts framework.

So the matter of ones impact with the Gospel should hinge on Jesus doing His work with and in us, rather than whether we function in one gift or another.

 

[BrotherJJ]

Hi there,

I am keen for some members to respond to this thread who are strong in biblical theology - I am not looking for denominational voices.

Here is a teaching for your consideration.

My position on the Holy Spirit Baptism is that it can occur in some individuals as a second event after being born again.

That leads to the question of what is received at re-birth???

What comes with His indwelling presence?

To understand this I reference Isaiah 11

11 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

This reference is to seven spirits.

These Seven Spirits of God are also referenced four times in Revelation.

1. Revelation 1:4
   John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before His throne,
   
   
2. Revelation 3:
   “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, and yet you are dead.
   
   
3. Revelation 4:5
   Out from the throne *came flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God;
   
   
4. Revelation 5:6
   And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

So these seven spirits are given with the indwelling presence of Christ.
This was the anointing Jesus received and the anointing that the disciples received when He breathed on them.

Few seem to realise that All believers are to enjoy these manifestations and this is for everyone as these are not the 'Gifts of the Spirit' received later at Pentecost.

I raise this issue because some feel that without the Gifts of the Spirit in operation one is not ready to go out into the world with the gospel.

There is some truth in this because Jesus required the disciples to wait in Jerusalem until they had received the baptism in the spirit.

This is also a strong argument for continuance as surely we in this age are still called to go out empowered with the gospel.

However I believe we have underestimated the impact of receiving the Holy Spirit at rebirth.

These seven Spirits of God should surely be manifest through us regardless of gifts that are given to some.

Attributes

These are seven Spiritual attributes that proceed from the Branch.

Isaiah 11:

1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots

2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD

Translators capitalized Branch (the context of the verses) showing His deity: (1) spirit of the LORD, (2) spirit of wisdom, (3) spirit of understanding, (4) the spirit of counsel, (5) spirit of might, (6) the spirit of knowledge, (7) the spirit of the fear of the LORD.

The Lord/God has many more attributes: He's faithful, gracious, just, merciful, omnipresent, self-sufficient-having no needs, unchanging/immutable, all powerful/omnipotent, all-knowing etc.

I would theorize that believers do (thru Him) have access to all spiritual attributes mentioned, I don't think every (indwelt) believer possess them all (Rom 12:6, 1 Cor 12:4,7 & 14:1 to name a few)

Just my opinion on the OP question.

I would be interested in reviewing any other verses that may support a believers second indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Peace, JJ

 

[Carl Emerson]

I would be interested in reviewing any other verses that may support a believers second indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Peace, JJ

I don't think there are any, but 'permanently resting on' - Yes...

 

[BrotherJJ]

I don't think there are any, but 'permanently resting on' - Yes...

Ok thanks, we agree about permanently resting on.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hey greatly appreciate your reasoned response.

I would have thought the function of being indwelled by a certain Spirit is for the purpose of expressing the character of that Spirit through you.

The power and work of the Holy Spirit in and upon us is myriad. But it is all for the express purpose of sanctifying, making us holy. To that end, yes, since He is the Holy Spirit He is making us holy by dwelling in us.

Now I am particularly focusing on this matter because I believe that folks need to know what is available to them as saved individuals regardless of which of the 9 gifts may be available.

I'd simply want to point out, here, that the many gifts or charisms of the Spirit are more than nine. Some gifts are mentioned in Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians, but still others are mentioned in Romans (Romans 12:6-8), so we should probably consider the gifts of the Spirit uncountable.

This is also a response to the cessationists who hold to a giftless church - and that theology tends to make the church a memorial to a vibrant faith that once was.

While I'm not a cessationist, my experience with cessationists/cessationism isn't that they believe in a giftless church. Rather cessationism sees certain gifts as having ceased, not that all of them have ceased. I doubt that there is a church out there that believes all gifts have ceased. And so to call it a "theology that makes the church a memorial to a vibrant faith that once was" seems rather unfair.

This is also a response to ardent Pentecostals who tend to consider those who dont manifest certain gifts as less spiritual if saved at all.

We seem to have lost sight of the full appreciation of what it means to have Christ within.

Does that not in the Greek mean 'the anointing' within ?

In Greek Christos means "Anointed", not "anointing". To have Christ in us is to have the Person of Jesus Christ in us; and in us He is through the Holy Spirit. As He told His disciples that He would not leave them as orphans, but would come to them when He and the Father send the Holy Spirit. As the Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father; so the Father and Son are in the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit in the Father and Son--by the eternal Perichoresis of the Holy Trinity.

So that "Christ in us, the hope of glory" is the promise of God, the work He began in us He will continue until that Final Day; for though we remain in this body of death we are battered and beaten, in the struggle between the old man and the new, with sin laying in wait in our own members; and thus we are reminded of the Lord's words that if we seek to be His disciple we must take up our cross and follow Him. For this life in this world is a cross; there is no glory in this life and world. But glory awaits us, when at long last this mortal flesh is raised up immortal.

For what God has done for Christ He will do for us, and indeed, all creation (Romans 8:11, Romans 8:23-24). And to that glorious end, He has given us the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of that future glory (Ephesians 1:13-14), for we have become heirs of promise by our union to Christ, to be called children of God, and the Spirit Himself in us therefore lets us cry out, "Abba! Father!" (Galatians 4:1-7).

Does that not make Isaiah 11:2 even more pertinent ?

I'm still not really seeing it.

I am trying to restore understanding of the vast impact of being indwelled by Christ who moved in most of the 'gifts' before the church was born.

I don't think that needs being restored, because I think it's never been lost from the Church's understanding. There is a robust theology of these things in Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant churches. Sanctification, Theosis, Mystical Union, etc. While there are differences in theology of course, there is actually quite a lot of overlap as well between various denominations and traditions here on the subject.

It seems Paul saw how Jesus was working through early believers who were gifted by the indwelling Jesus when he presented the nine gifts framework

So the matter of ones impact with the Gospel should hinge on Jesus doing His work with and in us, rather than whether we function in one gift or another.

I'm not sure what you mean by "ones impact with the Gospel". I tend to think of it in opposite terms, the Gospel's impact on us, which is nothing less than Christ dying for us, justifying us, and with that comes every promise of God.

I view the Christian life (Coram Deo, before God) as a passive life lived in faith, what we receive from God; The active life of the Christian (Coram Mundo, before the world) is the life of good works. And in neither is the Christian life a life of glory, but always a life of cross and suffering. To the praise of God's glory, and with eyes gazed Christ-ward, the Author and Finisher of our faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I'd simply want to point out, here, that the many gifts or charisms of the Spirit are more than nine. Some gifts are mentioned in Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians, but still others are mentioned in Romans (Romans 12:6-8), so we should probably consider the gifts of the Spirit uncountable.

I always had difficulty reconciling the listing passages of the gifts of the Spirit. "Uncountable" is a concept I never thought of before. It fits.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I don't adhere to any particular denomination.

I just might be able to pin you to closely (but not exactly) to a denomination by asking you questions about the Sacraments.

Do you believe in the Real Presence in the Lord's Supper?
Do you believe in baptismal regeneration?
Infant baptism?

These questions tend split Christendom into two categories.

Other diagnostic questions---

What about Dispensationalism? Premillenialism?
OSAS?

Generally speaking, Christians fall into one of four categories: 1) Pre-Reformation (RCC/Orthodox) 2)Reformational (Anglican, Reformed, Lutheran, Methodist) 3) Post Reformational (Baptist, American Evangelical, SDA, Pentecostal/Charismatic) 4) Liberal/Progressive

 

[Carl Emerson]

While I'm not a cessationist, my experience with cessationists/cessationism isn't that they believe in a giftless church. Rather cessationism sees certain gifts as having ceased, not that all of them have ceased. I doubt that there is a church out there that believes all gifts have ceased. And so to call it a "theology that makes the church a memorial to a vibrant faith that once was" seems rather unfair.

I have had quite some contact with Plymouth Brethren who tend to see claimed personal evidence of the gifts as Satanic. Some Baptist churches held a similar view back in the 50's.

My Isaiah 11 reference spells out the fundamental characteristics of the Holy Spirit that indwelled Jesus from conception.

Receiving this at rebirth equips us enormously as His indwelling presence works through us.

To explain - the context of this thread is in the light of my testimonial thread in which I have testified to His work with me while not claiming the operation of any particular apostolic gift.

I am trying to encourage others to step out into the realm of praying for the sick for example, without the need to consider if one has the gifting to do it.

Yes some of the church traditions embrace such activity without question.

"ones impact with the Gospel" was a poor choice of words sorry - I like to think of beginnings of faith as a collision with Him.

And again sincere thanks for your reasoned reply.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I have had quite some contact with Plymouth Brethren who tend to see claimed personal evidence of the gifts as Satanic. Some Baptist churches held a similar view back in the 50's.

I suspect if you asked most cessationists if the Holy Spirit gives gifts to His Church that most would answer yes, it's just that they believe some of the gifts have ceased to be given.

That may, based on perspective, a distinction without a difference. But I suspect many cessationists would object to the idea of believing in a giftless church.

My Isaiah 11 reference spells out the fundamental characteristics of the Holy Spirit that indwelled Jesus from conception.

I suppose this is where we might have some different perspectives. I don't view Jesus as having been indwelled by the Holy Spirit, at least not in the same way that believers are. The Lord walked with the power of the Holy Spirit, that is true, but He is God and as God has always had the Holy Spirit. As God the Son united to human nature the Holy Spirit was in Him, with Him. But the Lord wasn't filled with the Holy Spirit in the sense that we are, the Spirit is foreign to us because we are 1) mere creatures and 2) sinners. The Spirit was never foreign to Him, for He and the Spirit are one in Being. And so we can't make a direct comparison between the Holy Spirit's power and work through the Lord Jesus and the Spirit's power and work on and through us.

So when I read Isaiah 11:2 I'm not seeing things applicable to us when we receive the Holy Spirit by God's grace; but rather the power of the Spirit in the unique, one of a kind Messianic work of our Lord. Thus Isaiah 11:2 applies to Jesus, not to us.

Receiving this at rebirth equips us enormously as His indwelling presence works through us.

To explain - the context of this thread is in the light of my testimonial thread in which I have testified to His work with me while not claiming the operation of any particular apostolic gift.

I am trying to encourage others to step out into the realm of praying for the sick for example, without the need to consider if one has the gifting to do it.

Yes some of the church traditions embrace such activity without question.

True, Holy Unction is normative in most traditional churches and is considered either a Sacrament or a sacramental.

I'm not saying there aren't churches that don't pray for the sick, it's certainly possible those exist. But I'd be very surprised, perhaps that speaks only of my own experience. But I suspect if you did a poll and asked if people pray for the sick both personally and at church, I have a feeling it'd be close to unanimous.

"ones impact with the Gospel" was a poor choice of words sorry - I like to think of beginnings of faith as a collision with Him.

I like that way of putting it. I have started to use the phrase "encounter with grace".

And again sincere thanks for your reasoned reply.

Of course, and thank you for this opportunity to have this conversation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I suspect if you asked most cessationists if the Holy Spirit gives gifts to His Church that most would answer yes, it's just that they believe some of the gifts have ceased to be given.

That may, based on perspective, a distinction without a difference. But I suspect many cessationists would object to the idea of believing in a giftless church.



I suppose this is where we might have some different perspectives. I don't view Jesus as having been indwelled by the Holy Spirit, at least not in the same way that believers are. The Lord walked with the power of the Holy Spirit, that is true, but He is God and as God has always had the Holy Spirit. As God the Son united to human nature the Holy Spirit was in Him, with Him. But the Lord wasn't filled with the Holy Spirit in the sense that we are, the Spirit is foreign to us because we are 1) mere creatures and 2) sinners. The Spirit was never foreign to Him, for He and the Spirit are one in Being. And so we can't make a direct comparison between the Holy Spirit's power and work through the Lord Jesus and the Spirit's power and work on and through us.

So when I read Isaiah 11:2 I'm not seeing things applicable to us when we receive the Holy Spirit by God's grace; but rather the power of the Spirit in the unique, one of a kind Messianic work of our Lord. Thus Isaiah 11:2 applies to Jesus, not to us.



True, Holy Unction is normative in most traditional churches and is considered either a Sacrament or a sacramental.

I'm not saying there aren't churches that don't pray for the sick, it's certainly possible those exist. But I'd be very surprised, perhaps that speaks only of my own experience. But I suspect if you did a poll and asked if people pray for the sick both personally and at church, I have a feeling it'd be close to unanimous.



I like that way of putting it. I have started to use the phrase "encounter with grace".



Of course, and thank you for this opportunity to have this conversation.

-CryptoLutheran

I’m a cessationist in the fact the Apostles had a unique ministry and were the foundation of the church. Those specific miracles were undeniable proof that they were Gods ordained messages just the same as it was for Jesus. Those miracles accompanied and authenticated their message. Just the same as it was for a select few in the OT like Moses , Elijah and Elisha . Those miraculous gifts were no longer necessary after the Apostles. But like you mentioned I believe all the other gifts and offices are in use today with the exception of Apostles and Prophets. No more new revelation from God as we have all that’s necessary in His word.

 

[Guojing]

I’m a cessationist in the fact the Apostles had a unique ministry and were the foundation of the church. Those specific miracles were undeniable proof that they were Gods ordained messages just the same as it was for Jesus. Those miracles accompanied and authenticated their message. Just the same as it was for a select few in the OT like Moses , Elijah and Elisha . Those miraculous gifts were no longer necessary after the Apostles. But like you mentioned I believe all the other gifts and offices are in use today with the exception of Apostles and Prophets. No more new revelation from God as we have all that’s necessary in His word.

If one bother to read Acts 8 and understand literally what went down between Simon the sorcerer, Simon Peter the Apostle, and Phillip the deacon, one can easily understand the difference between what the 12 had and what anyone claim to have today.

In the Acts 8 account, Simon was astonished by the signs and miracles performed by Phillip. But he didn't offer money to him to pass him that same power, obviously Phillip could not pass on that same power to anyone else.

Then he encountered Peter and John, who could pass that same power to those who believe. It was then that he offered to pay them for that power.

You can look at it another way. At the present time, have you ever encountered anyone who can do the same signs and miracles, to the same extent as Simon saw Phillip/Peter/John was doing?

That fact that no one is offering these people anything to "pass on that power", shows the difference between what the original 12 had, and what anyone now claim to have.

 

[Carl Emerson]

In the Acts 8 account, Simon was astonished by the signs and miracles performed by Phillip. But he didn't offer money to him to pass him that same power, obviously Phillip could not pass on that same power to anyone else.

Philip was preaching the Gospel and healing - that was his focus.

Folks including Simon were saved - but none were baptised in the Holy Spirit.

When Peter and John came to Sumaria later, they noted the believers were not empowered and gifted so they laid hands on them to receive this additional blessing.

There is no reason to believe Philip could not have passed on this empowering himself. To single out Peter and John as somehow more empowered than Philip does not have scriptural support. All 12 were empowered with the Baptism in the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.