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The indwelling presence

Jesus is YHWH

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Nothing in the N.T. talks about a second blessing or another rebirth after being born again. A believer does not get a portion/part of the Holy Spirit indwelling them. One either has the Spirit and are a child of God or they do not have the spirit are are a child of the devil. The Baptism of the Spirit takes place at the new birth, being born again, born of the Spirit etc......

What the Bible does make clear and plainly teaches is that believers are commanded the following 4 things :

1- Be filled with the Spirit
2- Walk in the Spirit
3- Do not quench the Spirit
4- Do not grieve the Holy Spirit

hope this helps !!!
 
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Carl Emerson

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Nothing in the N.T. talks about a second blessing or another rebirth after being born again. A believer does not get a portion/part of the Holy Spirit indwelling them. One either has the Spirit and are a child of God or they do not have the spirit are are a child of the devil. The Baptism of the Spirit takes place at the new birth, being born again, born of the Spirit etc......

What the Bible does make clear and plainly teaches is that believers are commanded the following 4 things :

1- Be filled with the Spirit
2- Walk in the Spirit
3- Do not quench the Spirit
4- Do not grieve the Holy Spirit

hope this helps !!!

Hi there,

Thanks for your response.

A couple of questions...

When do you think the disciples were born again ???

Did Jesus have the Holy Spirit when He was born???
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Hi there,

Thanks for your response.

A couple of questions...

When do you think the disciples were born again ???

Did Jesus have the Holy Spirit when He was born???
Disciples at Pentecost.

Since Jesus is God then He has always had the Father , Holy Spirit in Him. It’s called the interdwelling of the Father , Son and Holy Spirit in theology known as Perichoresis. So there never has been a time it was not since God is Immutable.

hope this helps !!!
 
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ViaCrucis

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Disciples at Pentecost.

Since Jesus is God then He has always had the Father , Holy Spirit in Him. It’s called the interdwelling of the Father , Son and Holy Spirit in theology known as Perichoresis. So there never has been a time it was not since God is Immutable.

hope this helps !!!

No argument from me here, just offering thoughts and my own musings.

Pentecost makes possible sense. I also thought it possible during during Jesus' ministry.

As a Lutheran I understand regeneration to be about our receiving faith, that is regeneration refers to our receiving the new man, which has faith from God. So in that sense, the moment the disciples believed in Him, they are regenerated. When, exactly, that happened is possibly impossible to say. But seeing that the sending of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost was such a pivotal moment whereby the promise of the Gospel that all who belong to Christ receive the Holy Spirit who indwells those who believe is solidified; that also makes sense.

In a sense I think this is like asking when the apostles were baptized, that's kind of unknowable. There are several arguments out there, for example an appeal is made to when Jesus washes their feet, and Peter says he wants to be washed completely and Jesus says that Peter is washed completely; in this sense this was their baptism (or so it's been argued). Others have speculated that they may have been personally baptized by the Lord after His resurrection prior to His ascension, after having instituted Baptism in the Great Commission. If I had to say which those arguments I like better, I think the first one at least has some biblical support, whereas the other is simply guesswork. But I also wouldn't argue any position that strongly.

Which is all to say, I wonder if it's even all that important. We know that they were born again, they had faith in the Lord, they received the Holy Spirit. They were in the most unique position any Christian has ever been in, as those who walked with the Lord during His earthly ministry and who bore direct witness to His resurrection, and were tasked with all those things which Christ tasked them with to deliver to the first generation of converts all the way down to us today; that we too might hear and believe the Gospel and abide with the Lord.

Ultimately, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the word they delivered is what we read in Holy Scripture. Even if things maybe "worked" slightly different for them because of that unique position of being the recipients and depositors of Christ's word for all generations, what they have given us is what we receive.

As far as your second point concerning the Perichoresis, I am simply in 100% agreement and have no further to add to it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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No argument from me here, just offering thoughts and my own musings.

Pentecost makes possible sense. I also thought it possible during during Jesus' ministry.

As a Lutheran I understand regeneration to be about our receiving faith, that is regeneration refers to our receiving the new man, which has faith from God. So in that sense, the moment the disciples believed in Him, they are regenerated. When, exactly, that happened is possibly impossible to say. But seeing that the sending of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost was such a pivotal moment whereby the promise of the Gospel that all who belong to Christ receive the Holy Spirit who indwells those who believe is solidified; that also makes sense.

In a sense I think this is like asking when the apostles were baptized, that's kind of unknowable. There are several arguments out there, for example an appeal is made to when Jesus washes their feet, and Peter says he wants to be washed completely and Jesus says that Peter is washed completely; in this sense this was their baptism (or so it's been argued). Others have speculated that they may have been personally baptized by the Lord after His resurrection prior to His ascension, after having instituted Baptism in the Great Commission. If I had to say which those arguments I like better, I think the first one at least has some biblical support, whereas the other is simply guesswork. But I also wouldn't argue any position that strongly.

Which is all to say, I wonder if it's even all that important. We know that they were born again, they had faith in the Lord, they received the Holy Spirit. They were in the most unique position any Christian has ever been in, as those who walked with the Lord during His earthly ministry and who bore direct witness to His resurrection, and were tasked with all those things which Christ tasked them with to deliver to the first generation of converts all the way down to us today; that we too might hear and believe the Gospel and abide with the Lord.

Ultimately, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the word they delivered is what we read in Holy Scripture. Even if things maybe "worked" slightly different for them because of that unique position of being the recipients and depositors of Christ's word for all generations, what they have given us is what we receive.

As far as your second point concerning the Perichoresis, I am simply in 100% agreement and have no further to add to it.

-CryptoLutheran
The main reason I say at Pentecost is because that is when the transformation of the Apostles took place and the promise of Jesus to tarry and wait as per John 14-16 with the promise of the Holy Spirit who in the future would be in them. In Acts 1 just prior to Jesus Ascension He told them the following and notice its still future.

Acts 1
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

Remember Peter denied the Lord, feared his own life and scattered just like the other disciples. They remained in hiding until Pentecost. Peter was transformed that very day and without fear preached the Sermon in Acts 2 boldly before those same Jewish crowds he had feared. And when we read the following in the gospels we know the disciples did not even understand the gospel until Pentecost.

The disciples did not understand the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus which is the gospel.

Matthew 16:8-11
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread?


Mark 7:18
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

Mark 8:31-33
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.

33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Luke 9:43-45
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.

Jesus predicts His death a 3rd time

Luke 18:31-34

Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”
34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.


Luke 24:25-26

He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?

John 13
Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand…. I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.”
 
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A couple of questions...

When do you think the disciples were born again ???
A good discussion, Carl...

As for the point when the disciples were born again, we have confirming evidence of that all the way back in John 1:41. This was when those two disciples (Andrew as one of them, and likely John as the other) recognized and believed John's testimony regarding Jesus as being the Messiah. "We have found the Messias'", they said, "which is, being interpreted, the Christ." This indicated they had been seeking for the Messiah.

Philip also gave evidence of having been already regenerated by saying he had found Jesus of Nazareth to be the prophesied Messiah (John 1:45).

Christ also confirmed in John 1:47 that Nathaniel coming to meet them was already a regenerated child of God by His saying, "Behold an Israelite, indeed, in whom is no guile!" Nathaniel's instantaneous response to Jesus's first statement to him was an indication that regeneration had already taken place in this man. "Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel", he said to Christ, showing evidence of Nathaniel being a believer who had already been born again.

John 2:11 also gives additional confirmation of regeneration in the disciples after Jesus performed His first miracle in Cana. Linked together with this manifestation of Christ's glory, John says, "And His disciples believed on Him". Belief in Christ can only originate from a heart that has already been regenerated. As Christ once said, one can see the results of the wind blowing, but you can't tell from whence it comes or whither it is going. At what point that born again regeneration had taken place for the disciples, we aren't told in scripture, but, like the wind's effects, we can see these results of their being born again by the living response of believing faith they displayed.

Was the disciples' knowledge of Christ and the gospel perfected at that point? Certainly not; but neither we nor the disciples were regenerated by our level of knowledge regarding spiritual things. Regeneration is followed by the work of continuing sanctification and "growing in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ".
 
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Hi there,

I am keen for some members to respond to this thread who are strong in biblical theology - I am not looking for denominational voices.

Here is a teaching for your consideration.

My position on the Holy Spirit Baptism is that it can occur in some individuals as a second event after being born again.

That leads to the question of what is received at re-birth???

What comes with His indwelling presence?

To understand this I reference Isaiah 11

11 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

This reference is to seven spirits.

These Seven Spirits of God are also referenced four times in Revelation.

  1. Revelation 1:4
    John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before His throne,

  2. Revelation 3:
    “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, and yet you are dead.

  3. Revelation 4:5
    Out from the throne *came flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God;

  4. Revelation 5:6
    And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
So these seven spirits are given with the indwelling presence of Christ.
This was the anointing Jesus received and the anointing that the disciples received when He breathed on them.

Few seem to realise that All believers are to enjoy these manifestations and this is for everyone as these are not the 'Gifts of the Spirit' received later at Pentecost.

I raise this issue because some feel that without the Gifts of the Spirit in operation one is not ready to go out into the world with the gospel.

There is some truth in this because Jesus required the disciples to wait in Jerusalem until they had received the baptism in the spirit.

This is also a strong argument for continuance as surely we in this age are still called to go out empowered with the gospel.

However I believe we have underestimated the impact of receiving the Holy Spirit at rebirth.

These seven Spirits of God should surely be manifest through us regardless of gifts that are given to some.
with regards to the "gifts of the Spirit" this is referenced in 1 Cor 12-14 passage regarding the teaching of the gifts. The word used is not "gift" in its literal sense but "charisma" which is rooted in the word "charis" which means grace. I would look to 1 Cor 12-14 to understand proper uses of these gifts in operation but also implicitly by the word used would call this "charisma" a product upon charis or another way to put it "grace given gifts" or the indwelling

Charisma is used in another passage often translated as "gift" which is Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." "gift" here or some translations will say "free gift" is the word "charisma". So Charisma is something given to us and it is interconnected with the word for grace and it is clear it's an upon salvation thing.

The gift of the Holy Spirit is referenced in Acts and in this case "gift" is the literal word for gift which is "dorea". This word is not related to charis/charisma. We have names like Dorothea or Theodore today and these both mean the same thing. the "theo" part means God and the "dor" part is gift. the names both mean "gift of God/God's gift" and it is this "gift" context that Acts takes. Acts does not refer to the charisma of the spirit and 1 Cor does not refer to the dorea of the Spirit. These are two very important and misrepresented concepts because innately they are speaking of different concepts.

Corinthians is a letter to the church and 1 Cor 12-14 speaks to a goal to edify the church. Acts is not a letter and it's not about teaching points, it's about an order of events unfolding. When we see the baptism of the Spirit in Acts it violates the rules given out in 1 Corinthians. 1 Cor is about the gifts given discriminately and in Acts manifestations seem to be poured out more indiscriminately and all respond in a similar way. If it's tongues all speak in tongues, if it's boldness all speak in boldness, etc. Moreover, Acts speaks of manifestations (like boldness) not presented in the list of gifts in 1 Corinthians. I would postulate that the goal of 1 Cor 12-14 is regarding edification inside the body of Christ and Acts has more of an evangelistic goal in mind and this is why they look different.

With that said, if we participate in a body of Christ gathering (aka church) we should not be looking for spiritual encounters that look like Acts unless with an evangelistic motivation in need of supernatural power (Like in Acts 4), instead, we should be looking for a spiritual encounter that is taught in 1 Cor 12-14. If we are looking for a spiritual encounter more analogous to Acts then it probably is going to happen in places where the church is absent hence the need for these power encounters to build the church. There are many unreached areas of the world and I would suggest pocket communities even in the US (or other "Christian" nations) that are resistant to the gospel where the church has not been able to enter. It is in these areas where I would expect an Acts encounter.
 
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Disciples at Pentecost.

Since Jesus is God then He has always had the Father , Holy Spirit in Him. It’s called the interdwelling of the Father , Son and Holy Spirit in theology known as Perichoresis. So there never has been a time it was not since God is Immutable.

hope this helps !!!

So you think the disciples were born again at Pentecost...

Maybe your definition of being born in the Spirit is different than mine, because the disciples received the Spirit when He breathed on them long before Pentecost.

We agree that Jesus had the Holy Spirit at birth but that is not the full picture.

When He was baptised in water, the Power of the Spirit come on and remained on Him unlike any other believer.

This was how John the Baptist was to recognise the true Messiah.
 
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Carl Emerson

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A good discussion, Carl...

As for the point when the disciples were born again, we have confirming evidence of that all the way back in John 1:41. This was when those two disciples (Andrew as one of them, and likely John as the other) recognized and believed John's testimony regarding Jesus as being the Messiah. "We have found the Messias'", they said, "which is, being interpreted, the Christ." This indicated they had been seeking for the Messiah.

Philip also gave evidence of having been already regenerated by saying he had found Jesus of Nazareth to be the prophesied Messiah (John 1:45).

Christ also confirmed in John 1:47 that Nathaniel coming to meet them was already a regenerated child of God by His saying, "Behold an Israelite, indeed, in whom is no guile!" Nathaniel's instantaneous response to Jesus's first statement to him was an indication that regeneration had already taken place in this man. "Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel", he said to Christ, showing evidence of Nathaniel being a believer who had already been born again.

John 2:11 also gives additional confirmation of regeneration in the disciples after Jesus performed His first miracle in Cana. Linked together with this manifestation of Christ's glory, John says, "And His disciples believed on Him". Belief in Christ can only originate from a heart that has already been regenerated. As Christ once said, one can see the results of the wind blowing, but you can't tell from whence it comes or whither it is going. At what point that born again regeneration had taken place for the disciples, we aren't told in scripture, but, like the wind's effects, we can see these results of their being born again by the living response of believing faith they displayed.

Was the disciples' knowledge of Christ and the gospel perfected at that point? Certainly not; but neither we nor the disciples were regenerated by our level of knowledge regarding spiritual things. Regeneration is followed by the work of continuing sanctification and "growing in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ".

Mmmm... How do you define being born in the Spirit, also known as being Born Again ?
 
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Carl Emerson

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with regards to the "gifts of the Spirit" this is referenced in 1 Cor 12-14 passage regarding the teaching of the gifts. The word used is not "gift" in its literal sense but "charisma" which is rooted in the word "charis" which means grace. I would look to 1 Cor 12-14 to understand proper uses of these gifts in operation but also implicitly by the word used would call this "charisma" a product upon charis or another way to put it "grace given gifts" or the indwelling

Charisma is used in another passage often translated as "gift" which is Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." "gift" here or some translations will say "free gift" is the word "charisma". So Charisma is something given to us and it is interconnected with the word for grace and it is clear it's an upon salvation thing.

The gift of the Holy Spirit is referenced in Acts and in this case "gift" is the literal word for gift which is "dorea". This word is not related to charis/charisma. We have names like Dorothea or Theodore today and these both mean the same thing. the "theo" part means God and the "dor" part is gift. the names both mean "gift of God/God's gift" and it is this "gift" context that Acts takes. Acts does not refer to the charisma of the spirit and 1 Cor does not refer to the dorea of the Spirit. These are two very important and misrepresented concepts because innately they are speaking of different concepts.

Corinthians is a letter to the church and 1 Cor 12-14 speaks to a goal to edify the church. Acts is not a letter and it's not about teaching points, it's about an order of events unfolding. When we see the baptism of the Spirit in Acts it violates the rules given out in 1 Corinthians. 1 Cor is about the gifts given discriminately and in Acts manifestations seem to be poured out more indiscriminately and all respond in a similar way. If it's tongues all speak in tongues, if it's boldness all speak in boldness, etc. Moreover, Acts speaks of manifestations (like boldness) not presented in the list of gifts in 1 Corinthians. I would postulate that the goal of 1 Cor 12-14 is regarding edification inside the body of Christ and Acts has more of an evangelistic goal in mind and this is why they look different.

With that said, if we participate in a body of Christ gathering (aka church) we should not be looking for spiritual encounters that look like Acts unless with an evangelistic motivation in need of supernatural power (Like in Acts 4), instead, we should be looking for a spiritual encounter that is taught in 1 Cor 12-14. If we are looking for a spiritual encounter more analogous to Acts then it probably is going to happen in places where the church is absent hence the need for these power encounters to build the church. There are many unreached areas of the world and I would suggest pocket communities even in the US (or other "Christian" nations) that are resistant to the gospel where the church has not been able to enter. It is in these areas where I would expect an Acts encounter.

My thesis is that abilities come with the indwelling presence of Jesus before the later permanent empowerment with the Spirit - Just as Jesus was indwelled by the Spirit before receiving empowerment at baptism
 
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My thesis is that abilities come with the indwelling presence of Jesus before the later permanent empowerment with the Spirit - Just as Jesus was indwelled by the Spirit before receiving empowerment at baptism
What I know is that both the spiritual gifts of 1 Cor 12 and salvation as per Romans 6:23 are translated as the "free gift of God" use the same word "charisma" which is related to the word for grace (charis).

the greek suffix -ma or -μᾰ is described as: (wiktionary)
"Added to verbal stems to form neuter nouns denoting the result or effect of an action, a particular instance of an action, or the object of an action"

so charisma is the result of the action of charis (grace). in terms of Rom 6:23 this charisma is eternal life which is explicitly stated and is upon a salvation event. but according to 1 Cor 12 charisma is also spiritual gifts. Like eternal life these gifts are an inherited product of charis which is a salvation event. However, I don't think the bestowment of grace is a one-time thing but rather continuous so at which point gifts may be given would be as the Holy Spirit wills.

In terms of the "gift of the Holy Spirit" or dorea which is mentioned in Acts (aka baptism of the HS). In Acts this event is shown as a subsequent event to salvation that can come upon salvation, after salvation or after water baptism (a notable case is Cornelius). There is of course argument as to if that was reserved only for the early church or not but taking the bible in a vacuum the baptism of the holy spirit may be a subsequent experience to that of water baptism and salvation.

When Jesus breathed on the disciples in John 20:22 saying "Receive the Holy Spirit" this seems to be in conflict with the baptism of the Holy Spirit event in Acts. How can the HS have two arrivals events? Since prior to this point the Holy Spirit was not released to believers this can be seen as an infilling experience, rather than the baptism of the HS experience of Acts that is first demonstrated among the disciples before the baptism of the HS. In John 20 Jesus expands on this breathing upon and says "If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven" So the product is not spiritual manifestations of prophecies, tongues, etc... but instead a spiritual authority. The infilling and the charisma today would be the same event rather than separate events as there are no additional sources of this infilling happening as a subsequent experience to water baptism/salvation/HS baptism etc...

the manifestations according to Acts upon the baptism of the HS I still maintain have an evangelistic goal of a power encounter with God for the purpose of spreading the gospel whereas the infilling and charisma of the HS are more about roles within the body of Christ.
 
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So you think the disciples were born again at Pentecost...

Maybe your definition of being born in the Spirit is different than mine, because the disciples received the Spirit when He breathed on them long before Pentecost.

We agree that Jesus had the Holy Spirit at birth but that is not the full picture.

When He was baptised in water, the Power of the Spirit come on and remained on Him unlike any other believer.

This was how John the Baptist was to recognise the true Messiah.
see post 25 where I give my reasons why I say they were not born again until Pentecost.
 
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Mmmm... How do you define being born in the Spirit, also known as being Born Again ?
Christ compared being born in the Spirit to the wind, as you remember: "So is every one that is born of the Spirit". This shows an OUTSIDE influence being brought to bear on a soul that is dead and cannot perform a single spiritually-living action of its own volition before then. Just as in natural childbirth, the child emerges from the womb and the first visible proof to others that life is present in that child is the first-drawn breath it takes. Believing as the first exercise of faith is like that infant's first-drawn breath, proving that the Spirit is present within that person and has already regenerated them to life.

The "born again" phrase emerged because the prevailing mindset in Israel presumed that their mere blood relationship of being physically born as a natural descendent of Abraham entitled them to a place in God's kingdom. Of course, being a natural-born Israelite was not the requirement, as Christ explained to Nicodemus. They had to be "born AGAIN", of living water this time - namely, of the Spirit to become a true child of faith along with faithful Abraham (John 3:5).

There was a transition point in time when the Spirit did not merely visit persons to empower them for certain tasks or prophetic utterances. Christ told His disciples that a time was coming when the Spirit would not just dwell WITH them, but would permanently dwell WITHIN them once He had left. John 14:16-17 says, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth WITH you, and SHALL BE IN You." The timing of this transition Christ told them in John 16:7, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you: but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

This transition from the Spirit dwelling WITH the disciples over to dwelling WITHIN them does not mean they were not a child of God before that point. We know this because of the examples of those like Zacharias and Elizabeth who were called "Righteous before God" and "blameless" in Luke 1:6. And this was before they were both "filled with the Holy Ghost" and uttered prophetic testimony in Luke 1:41 and Luke 1:67.

Being "born of the Spirit" can take place at any time, even in the womb, as proved by John the Baptist (Luke 1:15). And this will sound controversial, but there is the example of Christ by the power of the Spirit offering post-mortem salvation to those being made to "live according to God in the spirit", even while in Hades, according to the case in 1 Peter 3:18-20 compared to 1 Peter 4:6.
 
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The main reason I say at Pentecost is because that is when the transformation of the Apostles took place and the promise of Jesus to tarry and wait as per John 14-16 with the promise of the Holy Spirit who in the future would be in them. In Acts 1 just prior to Jesus Ascension He told them the following and notice its still future.

Acts 1
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

Remember Peter denied the Lord, feared his own life and scattered just like the other disciples. They remained in hiding until Pentecost. Peter was transformed that very day and without fear preached the Sermon in Acts 2 boldly before those same Jewish crowds he had feared. And when we read the following in the gospels we know the disciples did not even understand the gospel until Pentecost.

The disciples did not understand the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus which is the gospel.

Matthew 16:8-11
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread?


Mark 7:18
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

Mark 8:31-33
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.

33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Luke 9:43-45
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.

Jesus predicts His death a 3rd time

Luke 18:31-34

Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”
34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.


Luke 24:25-26

He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?

John 13
Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand…. I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.”

Yes - I think that the matter comes down to definitions.

However the issue I want to focus on in this thread is the spiritual abilities that God gives believers at rebirth as recorded in Isaiah 11.
 
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sawdust

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Yes - I think that the matter comes down to definitions.

However the issue I want to focus on in this thread is the spiritual abilities that God gives believers at rebirth as recorded in Isaiah 11.
He doesn't give us those abilities at rebirth, He gave them to Christ. By being in Christ those abilities are ours positionally but experientially they are not ours until we make Christ our own. In other words, if we fail to grow and reach maturity in Christ, we are not wise, virtuous, knowing etc. They are not some automatic ability we manifest simply by virtue of being born again. Whereas our spiritual gift is something that manifests instantly and automatically.

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
 
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Carl Emerson

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He doesn't give us those abilities at rebirth, He gave them to Christ. By being in Christ those abilities are ours positionally but experientially they are not ours until we make Christ our own. In other words, if we fail to grow and reach maturity in Christ, we are not wise, virtuous, knowing etc. They are not some automatic ability we manifest simply by virtue of being born again. Whereas our spiritual gift is something that manifests instantly and automatically.

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

Are you claiming Jesus had a different Holy Spirit than we have ???

I have not claimed they are fully realised before maturity.

The gifts of the Spirit are not instantly exercised perfectly.
 
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sawdust

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Are you claiming Jesus had a different Holy Spirit than we have ???

I have not claimed they are fully realised before maturity.

The gifts of the Spirit are not instantly exercised perfectly.
Huh? How do you get that from what I said?

I never said you made any claims. I'm making a statement. You're perfectly free to disagree as before. :)

The gifts as in "to each one is given a gift" (1 Corinthians 7:7) is not what the Isaiah passage is talking about. Isaiah is referencing the sort of life Christ will manifest with the Spirit upon Him. A life of wisdom & understanding (perception and application of doctrine), counsel and might (fulfilling the Fathers plan and acting with integrity), knowledge and fear of the Lord (spiritual insight and profound respect toward God). It was the Holy Spirit that generated this life within Christ. In turn, because we have Christ's life , we can manifest the same life by the Holy Spirit because the Spirit takes the things of Christ. (John 16:14)

This life is ours positionally in Christ but we must learn it through perseverance in the intake and application of the truth before it can be manifested.

However the "gift" (1Cor.7:7) one might be given is not learned, it is simply manifested as needed as long as we are walking by means of the Spirit.
 
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Carl Emerson

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The disciples were assured of salvation long before Pentecost (Matt 19:28)

Jeremiah 32:40 predicted the indwelling presence of the Fear of the Lord would be sent to seal individuals to righteousness in a New Covenant to come, therefore sealing their salvation.

This was part of the anointing Jesus received.

Paul prayed for believers who were saved to receive the Holy Spirit.

Countless believers come to faith in a similar way and subsequently receive the Holy Spirit Baptism after rebirth.

We cant receive part of the Holy Spirit - God is One.
 
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sawdust

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The disciples were assured of salvation long before Pentecost (Matt 19:28)

Jeremiah 32:40 predicted the indwelling presence of the Fear of the Lord would be sent to seal individuals to righteousness in a New Covenant to come, therefore sealing their salvation.

This was part of the anointing Jesus received.

Paul prayed for believers who were saved to receive the Holy Spirit.

Countless believers come to faith in a similar way and subsequently receive the Holy Spirit Baptism after rebirth.

We cant receive part of the Holy Spirit - God is One.
What's your point?
 
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