Galatians 4 two opposing covenants.

[Studyman]

It's difficult at times to see how you attach some things to what's being discussed. This is one reason why I ask just to just stay in a chapter and context before cross referencing so much.

I have found that it is essential to follow the Christ's instruction and consider "Every Word" Inspired by God in my studies. As opposed to taking one sentence, separating it from the rest of the bible, breaking this sentence down and then creating foundational doctrine based on the interpretation of this one verse, absent the teaching of the rest of the Bible.

For instance, I know from study that the Fathers of the Pharisees despised God's Judgments, rebelled against God's Commandments, killed the prophets and were stubborn, stiff necked men in which was no Faith/obedience. I also know these same men were "Partial in the Law", and although they rejected His Commandments, and despised His Judgments, they continued in a version of the Levitical Priesthood sacrifices for justification/righteousness. How many times is this pointed out in the Law and Prophets that they rejected His Laws, but continued in the Levitical Sacrifices for justification? What I am advocating for here, is that men believe what is written, even if what is written might be contrary to a particular religious theory they have adopted. Actually, "Especially" if what is written contradicts their theory. Is this not how men are "corrected" by scriptures?

1 Sam. 15:22,23, Is. 1:11, Is. 43: 22-25, Jer. 6:20-23, Ez. 20:28, Hos. 4:19, 8:13.

All these, and more, expose for us what "LAW" the Jews/Priests were promoting.

Now fast forward to Jesus Time. We still have the Pharisees, children of their fathers, who were still rebelling and rejecting God's Laws, still killing the Prophets, still preaching the imagination of their own mind, as Jesus described them with His own Words, "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?"

Mark 7: 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

But according to the Holy scriptures, they were still promoting the Levitical Sacrifices given by Moses, for justification.

Jesus confirms this.

John 2: 14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: 15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

And again;

Matt. 23: 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, (Priesthood Law) and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Just as Stephen said; "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Were these not the Same Jews who accused Paul of "doing evil that good may come", whose damnation was just? Are these not the same Jews who were "bewitching" the Galatians?

But modern religions of this world God placed me in, would have me ignore Moses and the Prophets and Jesus, and believe that all the sudden, contrary to what the Prophets, and Jesus Himself and even Paul said about them, these Jews were now promoting to new converts, that they become "Doers" of God's Laws, and not hearers only. Implying that the Pharisees were, contrary to all Prophesy, contrary to all Biblical History, suddenly following and promoting "ALL" of God's Law given to Moses, and not just the Priesthood works for justification, that they and their fathers had done throughout biblical History.

So I don't believe I'm attaching anything, rather, I am believing what was established by the God of the Bible, Jesus and Paul, regarding the "Jews religion", and not ignoring these Biblical Truths just because others may not believe them.

I'd like to deal with a Scripture at a time to have you explain in context why you think works of law pertains so narrowly to sacrifices. IMO you're not figuring it out in context and running off too quickly to tie to what you think it means.

I know one thing for sure.

It means one thing for those who ignore or reject Moses and the Prophets, Jesus and Paul's own words defining those Jews who were "Bewitching" the Galatians. It means another to those who believe what is written in the Law and Prophets, and Jesus' and Paul's word defining those Jews who were "bewitching" the Galatians.

Close context first and you're not accomplishing that.

I'm not accomplishing the confirmation of the religious theory you are promoting my friend, through no fault or purpose of mine. I'm simply trusting the Holy Scriptures for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Jesus told a man in Matt. 19:17 "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." To which the man replied "Which"?

Jesus answered " Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

And are you really teaching the Pharisees were promoting these "works of the law" for justification? And Where is the command to take a goat to the Levite Priest?

And yet, this is what "many", who come in Jesus Name, imply in their religious theory that the "Works of the law" the Jews were promoting was the entire "Mosiac law".

That the Entire "Mosaic Law" was "ADDED" because of transgressions. That the entire "Mosiac Law" was added "Until the SEED Should Come, and then was abolished or no longer needed.

That the Pharisees were trying to get men to Obey the Entire "Mosaic Law".

But when a man actually reads the Holy Scriptures for themselves, they find that even though these religious philosophies are popular in the religions of the world God placed us in, they are deceptions if the Bible is the standard by which we discern and prove all things..

That the truth about the Pharisees, at least according to the Scriptures, who were "Bewitching" the Galatians, is that They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

That though they "SAID" they were promoting the "Law of Moses", they did not, but were partial in the Law, promoting the "works" of the Priesthood, but omitting the weightier matters of the Law, God's Law of Mercy, Law of Judgment and God's Law of Faith.

According to Jesus, these they should have done, and not left to the others undone. If they had, they would have been like Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, and all "Men of Faith" and would have known and worshiped the Christ, as Zacharias and Simeon and Anna did. And they would not have killed the Holy One of Israel. But like God prophesied about them, they stumbled at that Stumbling Stone, the Rock of Israel, their Redeemer, as it is written in the Gospel of Christ.

Is. 43: 22 But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of me, O Israel. 23 Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honoured me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense. 24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities. 25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. 26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.

You asked me why I believe what I believe about what changed, and about what the "Works of the Law" the Pharisees were promoting for Justification. I have answered as best I can.

Thank you so much for the opportunity to share what Study and faith has shown me.

 

[Clare73]

Some of us maybe. Then there are those who understand what an active voice command is and who further understand how He supplies His capabilities to us, so we have the desire and capabilities to do what He commands us to do - remaining in Him of course - as He commands.

Not a dime's worth of difference.

 

[GDL]

I'm not accomplishing the confirmation of the religious theory you are promoting my friend,

It's too bad that you fall back to this theory that everyone but you is stuck in some alternative religious theory.

I have found that it is essential to follow the Christ's instruction and consider "Every Word" Inspired by God in my studies. As opposed to taking one sentence, separating it from the rest of the bible, breaking this sentence down and then creating foundational doctrine based on the interpretation of this one verse, absent the teaching of the rest of the Bible.

Yes, it is ultimately "Every Word" and it's a process of beginning within the context of the document the word and phrase are in, understanding it in context, then branching out from there to see how it fits into the rest of the "Every Word."

Unfortunately, you seem clearly to be starting from the big picture, which you don't fully explain, and then importing your views from what you see as the big picture into the context of the individual document. That, my friend, is called eisegesis, which is not taking from the Word, but putting into the Word.

This is why you were wrong about Galatians 3 and why you are wrong about the scope of what "works of law" refers to. Your focus is simply too narrow. Also, you are not the only person who is an advocate for God's Eternal Law AKA God's Law AKA God's Moral Law. Nor are you the only one who is an advocate for living according to the Law God gave Moses for the Children of Israel, if that's your viewpoint.

What you are correct about is that Heb7 refers to the annulment of the Levitical Priesthood mandate and not to the annulment of God's Law.

You can call me and everyone else religious, that's obviously your choice, but you're not treating Scripture with all the honor you say you are if you're importing your thoughts into it, as you very apparently are doing in 2 of the 3 instances I've looked at. And, yes, this is my opinion, which I'm welcome to just as you are yours. The one thing you are proving, is that you really do not want to look closely at what parts of Scripture are actually saying and how the big picture really comes together. You also seem reluctant to fully explain the details of what your big picture practice is that makes it the only non-religious practice in this world of pseudo-religions.

So, since I think we both agree (I think, maybe, possibly) that God desires and always has desired faithful obedience, just what do you faithfully obey now that the New Priesthood of our Lord Jesus Christ is in place and has been for quite some time? Do you read God's Law He gave to the Children of Israel and obey every word except for sacrificing goats?

 

[GDL]

Not a dime's worth of difference.

I read what you wrote about opinions and noses. You clearly have a nose also.

I'm pretty certain if we were to open the topic, which I'm not interested in doing, the noses and dimes would be flowing from all the theological camp perspectives, which would be a good picture to show what @Studyman speaks of re: varying religious views.

Any thoughts on what "works of law" means? Might be as challenging as what "of" means.

 

[Clare73]

I read what you wrote about opinions and noses. You clearly have a nose also.

I'm pretty certain if we were to open the topic, which I'm not interested in doing, the noses and dimes would be flowing from all the theological camp perspectives, which would be a good picture to show what @Studyman speaks of re: varying religious views.

Any thoughts on what "works of law" means? Might be as challenging as what "of" means.

Same as instructions of manual.

 

[GDL]

Same as instructions of manual.

Like details of summary.

 

[Clare73]

Like details of summary.

The point of "summed up into one rule" (Ro 13:9) is that it accomplishes the details without having to review the details.

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman

I updated some work re: "works of law" again. If you care to focus on one area of Scripture to discuss what I think it means, let me know.

Even more now, I do think your focus on sacrifices is too narrow re: this phrase, just as I viewed your focus on Gal3 to be.

Once again, this does not mean that I'm commenting on where you've ended up in your big picture re: Law. IMO we really haven't even gotten too deep into that. FWIW, I think I'm one of the last ones who would ever downplay the need to be obedient to God - which I see as parallel to having faith in God.

In my life, I have found that I might "believe" something I "know" to be true and this "truth" therefore becomes a foundation and decisions are made based on this belief. Only to find later on that my foundation was false, and every decision I made based on this knowledge was false as well. I could give personal examples, but what am I really on this forum, but words typed on paper. So I would rather use one example in the Bible to make this point.

John 7: 40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet. 41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee? 42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? 43 So there was a division among the people because of him.

I find this part of the teaching of the Christ fascinating. Here are supposedly the wisest "men of God" on the planet, backed by the most influential and studied philosophers who ever existed, who studied the LXX in a purer form than we have today, using scriptures to "PROVE" that Jesus wasn't the Messiah, right after Jesus used the Same Scriptures to prove that HE was.

So the Pharisees rejected the Christ, based on where they believed, where they "KNEW" He was from. And every judgment they made following this, was "Founded" on this belief.

44 And some of them would have taken him; but no man laid hands on him. 45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him? 46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man. 47 Then answered them the Pharisees, (The Mainstream Preachers of that Day, the Rulers of the Temple of God who "SAT in Moses seat" said) Are ye also deceived?

48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? 49 But this people "who knoweth not the law" are cursed.

50 Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,) 51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth? 52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet. 53 And every man went unto his own house.

This is fascinating to me. How difficult would it be to ask Jesus. or even His Mother where Jesus was from? She was still there, probably at the very Feast. They could have easily found out where Jesus was born, by just asking Him.

But they didn't want "Truth". Nor did they want to risk losing or having exposed their reason for not believing His Words.

I have found that I too, more in times past than now, but still have that part in me that would rather preserve a belief that I have, comfortable in them, than to Come to the Light, and risk a darkness within me being exposed, that I would then have to deal with. But because I long for Truth, I come to the Light anyway, which has exposed, rather uncomfortably sometimes, deception or darkness that existed in my heart. God's truth sets us free from these deceptions, in my view. One such deception I used to harbor, was promoted by the mainstream preachers of our time, that is, that the Pharisees/Jews were trying to please God, or earn HIS favor, by obeying His Laws.

So I asked the Christ of the Bible, longing for His Truth, "Did the Pharisees teach the people of Jesus and Paul's Time, that to be justified, or made righteous, a man must obey God's Laws that HE gave to Moses, as "many" who come in Your name preach?"

Here is what Jesus told me of the Pharisees.

Mark 7: 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

John 7: 19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

So I ask Him again, but Jesus, the mainstream preachers of my time tell me that the "Works of the Law" Paul said the Jews were promoting for Justification, was the whole of the Law your Father gave to Moses?

And Jesus said;

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

So I asked Him, "But Jesus, if the "works of the Law" wasn't the whole of the Law your Father gave to Moses, then what "works of the Law" were they?

And HE answered.

Luke 11: 42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Matt. 23: 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and "have omitted" the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

John 2: 14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: 15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; 16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

When I combine these Words of Jesus with the Holy Scriptures who describe the Jews as men who rebelled against God's Commandments, Despised His Judgments, and polluted His Sabbaths, but Still sacrificed animals per the Levitical Priesthood for justification, it is clear to me, as I have no agenda or religious philosophy to promote or preserve, that the "Works of the Law" the Jews were promoting for justification, was not Love God, and Love your neighbor, and all that hang on them, Rather, the "Works of the Law" they promoted for justification, was the Sacrificial Works of the Levitical Priesthood.

Shall I deny all this evidence, and much more, including the Words of the very Christ, based on the Philosophy of men Jesus specifically warned me about? If my understanding is wrong, then explain how it's wrong and how I am misunderstanding Scripture. But if you can't, then perhaps my understanding isn't wrong. And if it isn't wrong, then what about all the doctrines which are promoted by this world's religions today, that are founded on the belief that the Pharisees were trying to convince men to obey God, and God rejected them for it?

 

[Studyman]

This is part of the issue with your narrow focus on works of law being sacrifices. With a quick search in one translation, here are the only 3 verses that show up with "work*" and "sacrific*" as the search terms:

NKJ Ps. 107:22 Let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, And declare His works with rejoicing.

Hos 13:2 Now they sin more and more, And have made for themselves molded images, Idols of their silver, according to their skill; All of it is the work of craftsmen. They say of them, "Let the men who sacrifice kiss the calves!"

NKJ Acts 7:41 "And they made a calf in those days, offered sacrifices to the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

Not one of these speak of the Levitical Priesthood sacrifices as "works".

Once we start making up our own terminology, almost any interpretation can make sense.

Again, care to work on the phrase "works of law" in each instance it's actually used?

It's not my terminology, it is Paul's.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

What "works" did the Pharisees promote? At least according to the Jesus of the Bible.

 

[pasifika]

I read what you wrote about opinions and noses. You clearly have a nose also.

I'm pretty certain if we were to open the topic, which I'm not interested in doing, the noses and dimes would be flowing from all the theological camp perspectives, which would be a good picture to show what @Studyman speaks of re: varying religious views.

Any thoughts on what "works of law" means? Might be as challenging as what "of" means.

Hi good question. .."what works of law" means? This will be a good thread for discussion.

 

[Clare73]

In my life, I have found that I might "believe" something I "know" to be true and this "truth" therefore becomes a foundation and decisions are made based on this belief. Only to find later on that my foundation was false, and every decision I made based on this knowledge was false as well. I could give personal examples, but what am I really on this forum, but words typed on paper. So I would rather use one example in the Bible to make this point.
John 7: 40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet. 41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee? 42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? 43 So there was a division among the people because of him.
I find this part of the teaching of the Christ fascinating. Here are supposedly the wisest "men of God" on the planet, backed by the most influential and studied philosophers who ever existed, who studied the LXX in a purer form than we have today, using scriptures to "PROVE" that Jesus wasn't the Messiah, right after Jesus used the Same Scriptures to prove that HE was.
So the Pharisees rejected the Christ, based on where they believed, where they "KNEW" He was from. And every judgment they made following this, was "Founded" on this belief.
44 And some of them would have taken him; but no man laid hands on him. 45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him? 46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man. 47 Then answered them the Pharisees, (The Mainstream Preachers of that Day, the Rulers of the Temple of God who "SAT in Moses seat" said) Are ye also deceived?
48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? 49 But this people "who knoweth not the law" are cursed.
50 Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,) 51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth? 52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet. 53 And every man went unto his own house.
This is fascinating to me. How difficult would it be to ask Jesus. or even His Mother where Jesus was from? She was still there, probably at the very Feast. They could have easily found out where Jesus was born, by just asking Him.
But they didn't want "Truth". Nor did they want to risk losing or having exposed their reason for not believing His Words.
I have found that I too, more in times past than now, but still have that part in me that would rather preserve a belief that I have, comfortable in them, than to Come to the Light, and risk a darkness within me being exposed, that I would then have to deal with. But because I long for Truth, I come to the Light anyway, which has exposed, rather uncomfortably sometimes, deception or darkness that existed in my heart. God's truth sets us free from these deceptions, in my view. One such deception I used to harbor, was promoted by the mainstream preachers of our time, that is, that the Pharisees/Jews were trying to please God, or earn HIS favor, by obeying His Laws.
So I asked the Christ of the Bible, longing for His Truth, "Did the Pharisees teach the people of Jesus and Paul's Time, that to be justified, or made righteous, a man must obey God's Laws that HE gave to Moses, as "many" who come in Your name preach?"
Here is what Jesus told me of the Pharisees.
Mark 7: 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
John 7: 19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
So I ask Him again, but Jesus, the mainstream preachers of my time tell me that the "Works of the Law" Paul said the Jews were promoting for Justification, was the whole of the Law your Father gave to Moses?
And Jesus said;
Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.
So I asked Him, "But Jesus, if the "works of the Law" wasn't the whole of the Law your Father gave to Moses, then what "works of the Law" were they?
And HE answered.
Luke 11: 42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Matt. 23: 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and "have omitted" the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

John 2: 14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: 15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; 16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

Well done. . .

Seems Jesus' answers require context and interpretation.
First of all, the time is near the Passover, where Jews who had come great distances had to be able to buy sacrificial animals near the temple.
However, the issue is that the merchants were selling them in the outer courts of the Temple itself, the one place where Gentiles could worship God and gather for prayer. The money changers should not have been working in the Temple itself.

When I combine these Words of Jesus with the Holy Scriptures who describe the Jews as men who rebelled against God's Commandments, Despised His Judgments, and polluted His Sabbaths, but Still sacrificed animals per the Levitical Priesthood for justification, it is clear to me, as I have no agenda or religious philosophy to promote or preserve, that the "Works of the Law" the Jews were promoting for justification, was not Love God, and Love your neighbor, and all that hang on them, Rather, the "Works of the Law" they promoted for justification, was the Sacrificial Works of the Levitical Priesthood.

Not just the sacrifices, but the laws in Leviticus, commonly called "ceremonial laws"--sacrifices, defilements, cleansings, food, etc.--laws which separated the Jews from the unclean Gentiles, creating hostility between them, and which were abolished on the cross (Eph 2:15).

Shall I deny all this evidence, and much more, including the Words of the very Christ, based on the Philosophy of men Jesus specifically warned me about? If my understanding is wrong, then explain how it's wrong and how I am misunderstanding Scripture. But if you can't, then perhaps my understanding isn't wrong. And if it isn't wrong, then what about all the doctrines which are promoted by this world's religions today, that are founded on the belief that the Pharisees were trying to convince men to obey God, and God rejected them for it?

God rejecting the Pharisees for trying to convince the Jews to obey God is a new concept to me. . .and one with which both Scripture and I are not in agreement.

As I read the NT, the Pharisees' problem was that they rejected Christ.

 

[Studyman]

Well done. . .

Seems Jesus' answers require context and interpretation.
First of all, the time is near the Passover, where Jews who had come great distances had to be able to buy sacrificial animals near the temple.

Yes, context is important. This discussion concerning Galatians and what the "Works of the Law" the Pharisees were "bewitching" the Galatians with. "Many", who call Jesus Lord, preach the these "Works of the Law" are the whole of what they call "Mosiac Law". But that contradicts the entire Bible, and certainly the Christ's Words. So then, since we know they were "Partial in the Law", as they despised God's Judgments, rebelled against God's Commandments, and Polluted His sabbaths, and Jesus said they omitted God's Laws of Mercy, His Judgments, and His Law of Faith, and that Moses gave them God's Law, but they didn't keep it, then what "Works of the Law" were they promoting to the Gentiles?

I agree with you here, and it is the point I am trying to make. The "works of the Law" they were promoting, was their version of the Levitical Priesthood, including sacrificial "works" for Justification.

However, the issue is that the merchants were selling them in the outer courts of the Temple itself, the one place where Gentiles could worship God and gather for prayer. The money changers should not have been working in the Temple itself.

Yes, God's Word should not be used to create a religious business. I agree with this 100%.

Not just the sacrifices, but the laws in Leviticus, commonly called "ceremonial laws"--sacrifices, defilements, cleansings, food, etc.--laws which separated the Jews from the unclean Gentiles, creating hostility between them, and which were abolished on the cross (Eph 2:15).

Yes, as the Jesus of the Bible points out.

Mark 7: 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

And yes, they created a Partition between them and the Church of God both Jew and Gentile, that God did not command. Jesus exposed them and "Their Law", making a show of them publicly, and triumphed over them in it. Abolishing their religion, which was against the Church of God, both Jew and Gentile, that the members of the Jews religion persecuted.

This is all good to point out, but this discussion is regarding what "Works of the Law" the Pharisees were promoting for justification.

God rejecting the Pharisees for trying to convince the Jews to obey God is a new concept to me. . .and one with which both Scripture and I are not in agreement.

Really! That's Interesting.

It's a wonderful thing if you are not one who teaches that the "Yoke of Bondage" Paul speaks to is the "Mosiac Law"? Or the religious theory that the "Yoke" spoken of in Acts 15, that the Pharisees were trying to lay on the necks of the Disciples, was the "Mosiac Law"? Or promote the theory that the "Works of the Law" promoted by the Pharisees for Justification in Romans 3 and Galatians 3, is the entire "Mosiac Law"?

If I had a dollar for every time a modern-day preacher told me that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by keeping the Law of Moses, I might be as rich as Joel Osteen or Kenneth Copeland or Benny Hinn.

As I read the NT, the Pharisees' problem was that they rejected Christ.

According to the Jesus of the Bible, it seems the Pharisees problem was they didn't believe Moses.

John 5: 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[GDL]

The point of "summed up into one rule" (Ro 13:9) is that it accomplishes the details without having to review the details.

Nonsense. All we get with this theory is a bunch of people telling us love means whatever they think or feel it means or whatever the Spirit or spirits supposedly told them. Then it takes away the ability to show the one in error what their error is. It takes away the reality that Heb5-6 tells us that maturity is being learned/skilled in the Word re: Righteousness and being able to judge both good and bad, vs. infantilism, which Heb rebukes, which is being unlearned/unskilled in the same Word re: Righteousness and thus unable to judge both good and bad. It takes away the ability to judge according to righteousness based upon the details of the list. It thus takes away the ability to have the ability to identify any sin and thereby assist a fellow Christian caught in sin to be restored - thus it takes away the ability to fulfill the Law of Christ. It takes away the ability to love God by keeping His commandments and keeping His commandments not being the burden you're implying they are. IOW, your theory is the epitome of infantilism.

There is not a single statement or inference in Rom13 or anywhere in Paul or elsewhere that even remotely suggests what you are saying. Paul even uses God's Law concerning treating an ox to instruct Christians to compensate their working elders, let alone still using it to identify what is sinful and even have a sinful professing believer thrown out of a congregation.

There's a reason Jesus prayed that our Father would sanctify His disciples by His Word - His Truth. Per your theory, we can simply put away the Word - the Truth - and walk around feeling the Spirit who would turn us into walking Love. Spirituality in our Text is being learned in righteousness and thinking and living accordingly in faith in Christ in Spirit.

That's the beginning of where this goes theologically. Your theory is also nonsense according to basic word definition and logic as it says the details summarized are not important to the summary statement. So, sure, let's throw out all the details and just read your conclusion, so you can take us wherever you want to take us. Sounds like you grew up in the 1960's - all we need is love (meaning uninhibited sex and whatever else people wanted it to mean). The problem for the sinful autonomous world is that God who is Love defines and explains the details of Love for His Creation which is part of His process for perfecting His Creation.

It amazes me how energetic professing Christians are at throwing out instruction in righteousness and thereby instruction re: Love.

 

[GDL]

It's not my terminology, it is Paul's.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

What "works" did the Pharisees promote? At least according to the Jesus of the Bible.

Read and contemplate the first half of Gal3. Consider you erred re: the scope of what transgressions refers to in Gal3:19. Consider Titus 3:5.

 

[GDL]

Hi good question. .."what works of law" means? This will be a good thread for discussion.

Build it and they will come.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, context is important. This discussion concerning Galatians and what the "Works of the Law" the Pharisees were "bewitching" the Galatians with. "Many", who call Jesus Lord, preach the these "Works of the Law" are the whole of what they call "Mosiac Law". But that contradicts the entire Bible, and certainly the Christ's Words. So then, since we know they were "Partial in the Law", as they despised God's Judgments, rebelled against God's Commandments, and Polluted His sabbaths, and Jesus said they omitted God's Laws of Mercy, His Judgments, and His Law of Faith, and that Moses gave them God's Law, but they didn't keep it, then what "Works of the Law" were they promoting to the Gentiles?

I agree with you here, and it is the point I am trying to make. The "works of the Law" they were promoting, was their version of the Levitical Priesthood, including sacrificial "works" for Justification.


Yes, God's Word should not be used to create a religious business. I agree with this 100%.


Yes, as the Jesus of the Bible points out.

Mark 7: 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

And yes, they created a Partition between them and the Church of God both Jew and Gentile, that God did not command. Jesus exposed them and "Their Law", making a show of them publicly, and triumphed over them in it. Abolishing their religion, which was against the Church of God, both Jew and Gentile, that the members of the Jews religion persecuted.

This is all good to point out, but this discussion is regarding what "Works of the Law" the Pharisees were promoting for justification.

Really! That's Interesting.

It's a wonderful thing if you are not one who teaches that the "Yoke of Bondage" Paul speaks to is the "Mosiac Law"? Or the religious theory that the "Yoke" spoken of in Acts 15, that the Pharisees were trying to lay on the necks of the Disciples, was the "Mosiac Law"? Or promote the theory that the "Works of the Law" promoted by the Pharisees for Justification in Romans 3 and Galatians 3, is the entire "Mosiac Law"?

If I had a dollar for every time a modern-day preacher told me that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by keeping the Law of Moses, I might be as rich as Joel Osteen or Kenneth Copeland or Benny Hinn.

Well done. . .I did not understand you to be referring to such, and with which I agree.

According to the Jesus of the Bible, it seems the Pharisees problem was they didn't believe Moses.

John 5: 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

As in Ge 3:15, Dt 19:15 18-19, the Pentateuch, prophets and psalms.

 

[Clare73]

Nonsense. All we get with this theory is a bunch of people telling us love means whatever they think or feel it means or whatever the Spirit or spirits supposedly told them. Then it takes away the ability to show the one in error what their error is.

If their conscience is not governed by the Holy Spirit so that they know what "loving neighbor as self" means, does it matter whether we are able to convince them of their error or not?

Yours following presumes the operation of the Holy Spirit in the born again.

It takes away the reality that Heb5-6 tells us that maturity is being learned/skilled in the Word re: Righteousness and being able to judge both good and bad, vs. infantilism, which Heb rebukes, which is being unlearned/unskilled in the same Word re: Righteousness and thus unable to judge both god and bad. It takes away the ability to judge according to righteousness based upon the details of the list. It thus takes away the ability to have the ability to identify any sin and thereby assist a fellow Christian caught in sin to be restored - thus it takes away the ability to fulfill the Law of Christ. It takes away the ability to love God by keeping His commandments and keeping His commandments not being the burden you're implying they are. IOW, your theory is the epitome of infantilism.

There is not a single statement or inference in Rom13 or anywhere in Paul or elsewhere that even remotely suggests what you are saying. Paul even uses God's Law concerning treating an ox to instruct Christians to compensate their working elders, let alone still using it to identify what is sinful and even have a sinful professing believer thrown out of a congregation.
There's a reason Jesus prayed that our Father would sanctify His disciples by His Word - His Truth. Per your theory, we can simply put away the Word - the Truth - and walk around feeling the Spirit who would turn us into walking Love. Spirituality in our Text is being learned in righteousness and thinking and living accordingly in faith in Christ in Spirit.
That's the beginning of where this goes theologically. Your theory is also nonsense according to basic word definition and logic as it says the details summarized are not important to the summary statement. So, sure, let's throw out all the details and just read your conclusion, so you can take us wherever you want to take us. Sounds like you grew up in the 1960's - all we need is love (meaning uninhibited sex and whatever else people wanted it to mean). The problem for the sinful autonomous world is that God who is Love defines and explains the details of Love for His Creation which is part of His process for perfecting His Creation.

It amazes me how energetic professing Christians are at throwing out instruction in righteousness and thereby instruction re: Love.

Do not the born again have the Decalogue written on their hearts for that instruction?
If it's not written there, does it matter whether they are instructed in righteousness, or not?

 

[GDL]

If their conscience is not governed by the Holy Spirit so that they know what "loving neighbor as self" means, does it matter whether we are able to convince them of their error or not?

Is there a difference between infancy and maturity? Are consciences weak in the younger years? Is there deceit pulling believers into sinning?

Yours following presumes the operation of the Holy Spirit in the born again.

???

Do not the born again have the Decalogue written on their hearts for that instruction?
If it's not written there, does it matter whether they are instructed in righteousness, or not?

See above.

 

[Studyman]

Read and contemplate the first half of Gal3.

If I ignore Moses and the Prophets, then I will not be persuaded of anything Paul is saying, and not just in Gal. 3. At least according to the Christ of the Bible.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I thought I had already addressed this very thing, including the Scriptures which teach it, and you seemingly ignored them. I understand that the scriptures I posted don't fit popular narratives sometimes. Nevertheless, I posted them for our review and discussion anyway. I'll do so again, not to justify my religious opinion, but out of Love for the Brethren, in seeking God's truth.

Ez. 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. (Is this not Repentance, and if you don't believe it is, then in the religious philosophy you are promoting, what is Repentance?)

28 "Because" he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Is this not what the SAME Christ taught, as the Jesus of the Bible? "Matt. 4:17., "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and "make you a new heart and a new spirit:" for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Is Paul not promoting the same Doctrine?

Eph. 4: 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth (from here on out) walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That "ye" put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; (Just as the Rock of Israel spoke through Ezekiel) 24 And that "ye" put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

And regarding Titus 3., How is Paul not in perfect alignment with the Christ, both as the Rock of Israel their Redeemer, and as the man Jesus, the Prophesied Messiah?

Titus 3: 3 For we ourselves also "were" sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy

The Love of God our Savior towards men appeared, not because of their righteousness, but because of God's Mercy. For all men have sinned. The Passover was slain for Israel, while Israel was Yet in Egypt, the same as it was for us, while we were yet in sin.

he saved us, (The Body of Christ) by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

As Jesus also teaches. Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Is this not what the Christ of the Bible has always promoted? "For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. (For HE desires Mercy, not Sacrifice)

How is it you are implying that Paul is all the sudden preaching a different gospel to the Galatians?

Gal. 3: 1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

This all ties together in my understanding. The Jews were also given this same Gospel, "Repent, and turn away from all your transgressions". "Put on the New Man", which after God, not Gamaliel or Calvin, is created in Righteousness and true Holiness.

This was the very purpose of forgiveness for repentance in the first place. "I desire Mercy, not Sacrifice". But the Pharisees didn't repent. As their fathers did, so did they. They were still rebellious against God's Laws but continued in the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for justification. How can you not see this?

Can men who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who preach in His NAME, be treated or judged in a different manner than the mainstream preachers of Jesus Time?? Jesus said no.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Are you promoting that men are Justified by the Sacrificial "Works" of the Law Jesus Fulfilled in Himself without true repentance?

Rom. 6: 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Is the Doctrine not "Repent" and "go and sin no more".

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Consider you erred re: the scope of what transgressions refers to in Gal3:19. Consider Titus 3:5.

Well, certainly one of us have, or maybe both.

But I don't think the Rock of Israel was in Error; "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:"

Nor was the man Jesus, who HE became, who taught the same thing; "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

Nor do I believe Paul was in Error. "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

However, I do believe the Pharisees were in Error. "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

At any rate, it's a good discussion to have in order to determine what covenant the Rock of Israel promised to change, "After those days".

 

[GDL]

At any rate, it's a good discussion to have in order to determine what covenant the Rock of Israel promised to change, "After those days".

With respect for you as a sibling in Christ, I'm not reading all of what you say that includes inferences or statements that I don't understand the Gospel or certain Scripture; For example, your suggestion that I may not understand Galatians 3 is hard to take seriously when you are suggesting we need to go all over Scripture to first understand what Paul is saying in a phrase in a certain context in a certain document.

If you're going to prove that I'm wrong about what transgressions are referred to in Gal3:19, or what "works of law" means in Gal3 where it is repeated 3 times after being used in Gal2, then you're going to have to focus on Galatians before we run around the rest of the Bible. You're going to have to get into some specifics I don't see you liking to get into.

What initially interested me in some of what I read you say, was something I wanted to chase back into Hebrews to see how it might work out. I came out of Heb7 in agreement with what you said about the "fleshly commandment" there, but I already had that point of view because the language and syntax agree with you, as does some basic cross referencing in Scripture. There's some more I want to look at in Hebrews, but did not do so, since this thread ventured elsewhere.

Because I've seen you disregard specifics within some of the Text and err in the specifics making them say what you want them to say to fit your overall theory about Law, I really do not want to chase the overall forest apart from the trees. Neither transgressions nor works of law are just about sacrificing goats.