Galatians 4 two opposing covenants.

[Clare73]

I'll tighten this up where I accommodated it before. I don't use words like "under" that I don't see in the Text, due to how strict Paul uses "under [the] law" and I don't rely on English translations. As I stated previously, "under" is not in the Greek of Heb7:11.

The word "under" (epi) has the meaning "during the time of" (e.g., Mk 2:26, 1Ti 6:13).

These are closer with the parenthetical phrase:

• More literal: NAS Hebrews 7:11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?
• Paraphrased: NIV Hebrews 7:11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood-- and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood-- why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

Yet God spoke the Decalogue to the people in Ex20.

God spoke the Decalogue to Moses, which the people heard (Ex 19:9).
I'm not referring to the Decalogue given on Mt. Sinai, I'm referring to the laws given to Moses from the Tent of Meeting (Lev 1:1).

And God gave the law to the people on Mt. Sinai in Exodus as well as in Leviticus 40 years before the covenant with Phinehas, which covenant is not "the law given to the people" in Heb 7:11. That is a Jewish gloss.

pretty much sounds like what @Studyman is saying - the Priesthood Covenant was changed.

If so, it was changed about 500 yrs after it was given to Phinehas, and 1,000 years before the cross, in Ps 110:4 (Heb 7:17).

Where do you see (Levitical) law. I see the law appoints high priests Heb7:28.

I see law given to the people in Leviticus 11-27 "during the time of" (epi) the Levitical priesthood (Heb 7:11).

Heb11:12 (checkreference)
I agree that's what Heb7:19 says but I'd be cautious of pushing this too far too quickly because of verses like Heb7:18 cf. Heb7:16. And this ties to some of what I'm looking at with @Studyman. Heb10:1-4 ties to this also. Rom8:3 definitely says what it says, and God structured the Mosaic era for a purpose. Gal4 again takes us back to the Mosaic era and what God was doing with people "under law". I'm sure you know Messianics at minimum have a much different take on what Gal4:9 refers to.
I'll not be going into a law vs. anti-law discussion, so please understand if I don't respond to this topic further for now.

For that is exactly what this notion of the change (Heb 7:11) of the "Priesthood Covenant" (given 40 years after Sinai) is all about. . .to establish that
the covenant with Phinehas was changed,
the Mosaic covenant and law were not made obsolete per Heb 8:13, and
the Mosaic laws are still in force. . .all of which is just a Jewish gloss.

And I don't see how anyone can maintain the laws in Leviticus (sacrifices, defilements, cleansings, etc.) are still in force in light of the NT.

Thanks for actually reviewing the Scriptures presented.

 

[ralliann]

I'm getting that from Ronald Youndblood,

I apply it to Christ as "seed" is applied to Christ (Gal 3:16), because
his is the "lasting priesthood" (eternal High Priest--Heb 3:1, 4:14-15, 5:5, 10, 7:26, 28, 8:1, 3, 9:11), promised to Phinehas.

However, if "lasting" is not "everlasting" as you state, then it does not necessarily apply to Christ.

The word "under" (epi) has the meaning "during the time of" (Mk 2:26, 1Ti 6:13).

God spoke the Decalogue to Moses, which the people heard (Ex 19:9).
I'm not referring to the Decalogue, I'm referring to the laws given to Moses from the Tent of Meeting (Lev 1:1).

I see law given to the people "during the time of" (epi) the Levitical priesthood (Heb 7:11) in Lev 11-27.

Thanks.

Deut 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Deut.17:8 ¶ If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
9 And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:
10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:
11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.
13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.

Every court in Israel had priests to preside
De 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried:

Lev 10:8 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,
9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

 

[Clare73]

Deut 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Deut.17:8 ¶ If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
9 And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:
10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:
11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.
13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.

Every court in Israel had priests to preside
De 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried:

Lev 10:8 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,
9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

Thanks.

I'm not making any reference to the time frame in which the laws applied, only to the time frame in which they were given; i.e., "during the time of" (on the basis of, under) the Levitical priesthood.

 

[Studyman]

Well done. . .

Is this not the the writer telling us the priesthood (under which priesthood the law was given to the people) was changed first, and
then the law, given under the priesthood to the people, not the law which was given over the priesthood (office by ancestry) to establish it, was changed (Heb 7:11-12)?

I think you are making a mistake to preach that God's Priesthood "After the Order of Aaron" was only tasked with communicating "Priesthood Law", certainly the vast majority of translations don't give that impression, excepting the progressive translation of the NIV. One extremely important Priesthood duty was to pass on to God's People, His Holy, Just, Good and Spiritual Law written in the Book of the Law they had exclusive control over. I'm not sure where you get the religious theory that the purpose of the Levitical Priesthood was to only promote the Levitical Priesthood, which had not yet even been implied when the 10 Commandments, God's Sabbath, Passover, Feast of Unleavened bread, etc., were instituted.

It is true the Pharisees pretty much only promoted the Priesthood, while omitting the weightier matters of the Law, like mercy judgment and faith, because all their wealth and power over the people came through their version of the Priesthood. As the Prophets and Jesus teach, they had corrupted the Priesthood, and had become "Partial in the Law". "Teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men" and "Laying aside the commandments of God" so they could keep their own religious traditions, which is the reason why the Hebrews Author is addressing this issue in the first place, in my view.

It's also important to consider that the "Levitical" Priesthood, was Temporary in its beginning, As God most certainly knew the man Jesus would come, "After those days" and would become God's Prophesied Priest, through the Tribe of Judah, and not Levi. This would make of necessity at some point, a change in the Law regarding who could partake of the Priesthood, as the Author of Hebrews explains in the verses you did not post. This would of course, have no influence or effect on God's Law defining His righteousness that Paul said is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good., rather, 2 things would be impacted.

#1. The manner in which God's Laws are received by the people.

#2. The manner in which transgression of these Laws are atoned for.

Both were the exclusive duty of the Levite Priest, according to the Priesthood Law God gave Moses.

In this "Priesthood Law", according to Scriptures, when a man disobeyed God's commandments and as a result of this sin, became guilty and unrighteous, he was to bring a goat to the Levite Priest, and kill it. (Lev. 4) The Priest "After the order of Aaron", would take the blood of the goat, and through sacrificial "Works" provide for the forgiveness/atonement of his sin, removing his unrighteousness, "According to the LAW". This Priesthood, "After the Order of Aaron" was Prophesied to end, at the advent of God's Priest "After the Order of Melchizedek". The Pharisees were still promoting the "works" of this Priesthood Law for removing man's unrighteousness/sin, even after the "SEED" had come. The Hebrews Author is pointing out what the Holy Scriptures Prophesied, by asking the perfect Question;

If therefore perfection (the removal of sin/unrighteousness) were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) (Definition of Sin) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

It's a perfect question to put forth, given the mainstream preachers of that time were still promoting the Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for justification, and not Faith in God as the Law and Prophets promote, exhibited by Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, in Luke 1&2.

This "LAW" of forgiveness was to be in place "Till the SEED should come", after those days. At which time, these "works" of the Levitical Priesthood for forgiveness of sins, would become obsolete. And the manner in which men received God's Definition of Sin, would also change.

But God's definition of Sin and His instruction in righteousness, was not changed. At least, not according to Scriptures.

There are "many" who come in Christ's name, who promote all matter of false religious theories and philosophies. Jesus and the Prophets before Him, and His disciples after him, warned of these men and their doctrines and traditions of men. One such philosophy promoted by many of this world's self-proclaimed "ministers of righteousness", is that God's LAWs which defines righteousness that Jesus and all the examples of faith in the entire Bible walked in, are carnal, and weak and useless, as opposed to the temporary Priesthood law requiring the blood of animals for the forgiveness sins and required DNA from the tribe of Levi to become a Priest unto God, and to appoint other Levites into the Priesthood, "After the Order of Aaron". In other words, men with infirmity, appointing other men with infirmity into the Priesthood.

They twist Heb. 7 to promote the popular teaching which implies that God's Laws defining Sin, how to honor Him, and how to love others, became obsolete at the advent of God's Prophesied Priest. The Scriptures do not support this philosophy.

My hope in that you will re-consider the topic in Hebrews 7-10, based on what it says, and not what this world's religious philosophers teach it says.

 

[ralliann]

Thanks.

I'm not making any reference to the time frame in which the laws applied, only to the time frame in which they were given; i.e., "during the time of" (on the basis of, under) the Levitical priesthood.

It makes the point of under in that it was the Levitical priesthood that was to teach the law to the people, and they were to obey what they said completely. Technically, The priesthood being the orators and justices in the courts, was given at what time? What Moses taught, is what was given to the Levitcal priesthood to teach. I just don't get what the problem is.

 

[ralliann]

Well done. . .

"If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood--as the High Priest of the priesthood of Melchizedek could do by faith in him--(for during the time of it the law was given to the people--that is all the laws of Leviticus), why was there still need for another priest to come. For where there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law." (Heb 7:11-12).

And why does that not include all the law in Leviticus, the law ordaining the priesthood as well as the laws the priesthood administered?
The necessity of raising up another priest, so that perfection could come, required a change in the whole system; i.e, priesthood of Aaron to priesthood of Melchizedek, law to grace, Mosaic Covenant to New covenant.

Is this not the the writer telling us the priesthood (during the time of which priesthood the law was given to the people) was changed first, and then the law, given during the time of the priesthood to the people, which are the laws in Leviticus (including the law over the priesthood) was changed (Heb 7:11-12)?

Nestle Greek text (translated by Rev. Alfred Marshall D. Litt.)
"If therefore perfection was through the Levitical priestly office (for under it the people had been furnished with law), why yet need another priest to arise and not to be said according to the order of Aaron? For the priestly office being changed there occurs also of necessity a change of law." (Heb 7:11-12)

"For on one hand there comes about an annulment of the preceding commandment because of the weakness and unprofitable(ness) of it, for the law perfected nothing; on the other a bringing in of a better hope through which we draw near to God." (Heb 7:18-19)

RSV translation:
"Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well." (Heb 7:11-12)

"On the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); on the other hand, a better hope is introduced through which we draw near to God (Heb 7:18-19).

NIV:
"If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law." (Heb 7:11-12)

"The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God" (Heb 7:18-19)

It states "under (during the time of, on the basis of) it the people had been furnished with (received) law." See those laws in Leviticus.

See Lev 23 for Sabbath, Passover, and Lev 25 for Sabbath Year, Year of Jubilee, laws for the poor (Lev 25:35-37), including Hebrew slaves and Gentile slaves (Lev 25:39-46)

Is it the priesthood not making them perfect, or the law of sacrifice not making them perfect?

Which he does only by faith in him (Eph 2:8-9).

Was it given to "make" perfect, or to "forgive" imperfection (sin)?
Does "perfection" refer to the work of the priesthood, or to obedience to the law?

"Carnal" here is not referring to the law of animal sacrifice, right? It is referring to the law based on the human (carnal) ancestry of the Levitical high priest rather than on the power of an indestructible life, as in the order of Melchizedek Heb 7:16, Ps 110:4).

"Carnal" meaning high priest based on human ancestry.

"Weak and useless" (Heb 7:18) including the laws given to the people during the time of the priesthood (Heb 10:1-4), and as in Ro 8:3, Gal 4:9-10.

The imperfection of the law is in it commands Shadows, and figures. The sacrifices pertaining to the weakness is by Law of Moses. Not just the priests themselves, they are also a part of that whole package from Moses law..

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

 

[Studyman]

The imperfection of the law is in it commands Shadows, and figures. The sacrifices pertaining to the weakness is by Law of Moses. Not just the priests themselves, they are also a part of that whole package from Moses law..

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

What "good thing" does "thou shall not steal" foreshadow? Or is the Hebrews Author speaking to the Sacrificial LAW that foreshadowed what the Christ would do for those repentant souls, who in times past, " Stole".

It seems important to point out that Jesus told men to essentially "Go and Steal no more" and made this mean something by forgiving a man's past stealing with His own blood, wiping their slate clean. As opposed to the old priesthood the Priest's Corrupted, in which they promoted the Sacrificial "works of the Law" for atonement, rather than real repentance, and change. They turned the Levitical Priesthood into a religious business which basically sold animals for forgiveness. Resulting in a man who wasn't conscience of Sin, and therefore didn't repent. But the God and Father of the Lord's Christ said, "to obey is better than sacrifice".

Therefore Jesus began His Ministry with the Words, "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

 

[ralliann]

What "good thing" does "thou shall not steal" foreshadow? Or is the Hebrews Author speaking to the Sacrificial LAW that foreshadowed what the Christ would do for those repentant souls, who in times past, " Stole".

Noachide law...to say natural law.
We see it.
God came to Abimelech. He knew what righteousness was as a nation, what great sin it was, so did his servants.
Ge 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man’s wife.
Ge 20:4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
Ge 20:8 Therefore Abimelech rose early in the morning, and called all his servants, and told all these things in their ears: and the men were sore afraid.
Ge 20:9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.

What does God say?
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

We have examples like this. There was law before Moses Men knew. Abraham, knew, in speaking with God concerning Sodom/Gomorrah. Would the Judge of all the earth do right? Far be it from thee to slay the righteous with the wicked. Moses father in law advised him how to best structure a justice system. Moses followed that exact advice.
These laws which were before, being RETAINED by Moses, does not make them from Moses, any more than circumcision was from Moses, yet it was given to them by Moses, but from the Fathers. It (circumcision) was the law of Passover, when they left Egypt.
Moses law, we know had many figures, which word is literally "parable". To set Israel apart from the nations, at that time.

 

[Clare73]

Clare73 said:

Is this not the penman telling us the priesthood (during the time of which priesthood the law was given to the people) was changed first, and then the law given during the time of the priesthood to the people, which are the laws in Ex, Lev, Nu, was changed (Heb 7:11-12)?

I think you are making a mistake to preach that God's Priesthood "After the Order of Aaron" was only tasked with communicating "Priesthood Law",

In the context of the book of Hebrews, which purpose is to demonstrate the superiority

1) of the Son (Heb 1:7)
over the angels (Heb 1-2)
over Moses (Heb 3-4:13),
over the Aaronic priests (4:14-7:28), and

2) of the sacrificial work of our High Priest (Heb 8-10)
a better covenant (Heb 8),
a better sanctuary (Heb 9:1-12),
a better sacrifice (Heb 9:13-10:18),

in that context of Heb 7, we are looking at the Son's superiority over the Aaronic priests.
The context here is not to establish a change in the covenant with Phinehas, it is to establish the superiority of Christ's priestly order over the Levitical priestly order, just as it establishes the superiority of Christ himself over the angels, Moses and the Aaronic priests themselves, which superiority of Christ is the purpose of Heb 1-10.

In the context of demonstrating the superiority of Christ's priestly order over the Levitical priestly order in Heb 7,
it first establishes that although Moses gave no law regarding a High Priest of another order (Heb 7:14), Christ is eternal High Priest since Ps 110:4 (Heb 7:16).
Then it demonstrates the superiority of Christ's priestly order over the Levitical priestly order by comparing the efficacy of the two ministries, where the Levitical ministry was unable to make perfect by its sacrifices and law keeping, while Christ's ministry makes perfect by its sacrifice and faith.

The point is not the change of the covenant with Phinehas given 40 years after Sinai, and which is not "the "law" given to the people" (Heb 7:11), but is a Jewish gloss thereof.
The point is the authorization of Christ's High Priestly ministry, which is found in Ps 110:4 (Heb 7:16).
There is only one giving of law to the people (in addition to God giving the law to Moses on Mt. Sinai, Ex 19:9), and it is presented in Ex, Lev and repeated 40 yrs. later in Nu, where in both givings, the laws regarding the priests and the people are interchanged, because all of it is "the law."

So . .in light of the above, I'm saying that "the law" given to the people (Heb 7:11) does not refer to the covenant with Phinehas, it refers to all the Mosaic law; i.e.,
1) the laws for the Levitical priesthood which was set aside by God when he struck down the firstborn in Egypt (Nu 3:11), and which laws
are interspersed throughout Ex 28-29, Lev 8-10, 21-22, 24:1-9, Nu 2-3, 8, 18, 27:12-23, 33, etc., as well as
2) the laws for the people, also interspersed throughout Lev 1-7, 11-15, 17-20, 23, 24:10-21, 25-27, Nu 15, 19, 27:1-11, 28-32, 34-36, etc.

I am saying that "the law given to the people" (Heb 7:11) includes all the laws in Ex - Nu, the laws for the priesthood as well as the laws administered by the priesthood.
I'm saying that the necessity of raising up another priest, so that the people could be made perfect, required a change in the whole system; i.e, priesthood of Aaron to priesthood of Melchizedek, law to grace, Mosaic Covenant to New covenant, not just a change in the law, and I am saying "law" that was changed refers to both law for the priesthood and administered by the priesthood.

certainly the vast majority of translations don't give that impression, excepting the progressive translation of the NIV. One extremely important Priesthood duty was to pass on to God's People, His Holy, Just, Good and Spiritual Law written in the Book of the Law they had exclusive control over. I'm not sure where you get the religious theory that the purpose of the Levitical Priesthood was to only promote the Levitical Priesthood, which had not yet even been implied when the 10 Commandments, God's Sabbath, Passover, Feast of Unleavened bread, etc., were instituted.
It is true the Pharisees pretty much only promoted the Priesthood, while omitting the weightier matters of the Law, like mercy judgment and faith, because all their wealth and power over the people came through their version of the Priesthood. As the Prophets and Jesus teach, they had corrupted the Priesthood, and had become "Partial in the Law". "Teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men" and "Laying aside the commandments of God" so they could keep their own religious traditions, which is the reason why the Hebrews Author is addressing this issue in the first place, in my view.
It's also important to consider that the "Levitical" Priesthood, was Temporary in its beginning, As God most certainly knew the man Jesus would come, "After those days" and would become God's Prophesied Priest, through the Tribe of Judah, and not Levi. This would make of necessity at some point, a change in the Law regarding who could partake of the Priesthood, as the Author of Hebrews explains in the verses you did not post. This would of course, have no influence or effect on God's Law defining His righteousness that Paul said is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good., rather, 2 things would be impacted.
#1. The manner in which God's Laws are received by the people.
#2. The manner in which transgression of these Laws are atoned for.
Both were the exclusive duty of the Levite Priest, according to the Priesthood Law God gave Moses.
In this "Priesthood Law", according to Scriptures, when a man disobeyed God's commandments and as a result of this sin, became guilty and unrighteous, he was to bring a goat to the Levite Priest, and kill it. (Lev. 4) The Priest "After the order of Aaron", would take the blood of the goat, and through sacrificial "Works" provide for the forgiveness/atonement of his sin, removing his unrighteousness, "According to the LAW". This Priesthood, "After the Order of Aaron" was Prophesied to end, at the advent of God's Priest "After the Order of Melchizedek". The Pharisees were still promoting the "works" of this Priesthood Law for removing man's unrighteousness/sin, even after the "SEED" had come. The Hebrews Author is pointing out what the Holy Scriptures Prophesied, by asking the perfect Question;

If therefore perfection (the removal of sin/unrighteousness) were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) (Definition of Sin) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

"If therefore perfection was through the Levitical priestly office (for under--during the time of--it the people had been furnished with law), why yet need another priest to arise and not to be said according to the order of Aaron? For the priestly office being changed there occurs also of necessity a change of law." (Heb 7:11-12)

"If perfection was through the office of priesthood. . ."
Does that necessarily mean the perfection of the priest himself, or does it mean the perfection of the people through the ministrations of his office, which was the whole system of sacrifices and law-keeping?
Was the imperfection in the inadequacy of the Levitical High Priest's sacrifice of an animal, compared to the perfection of the new High Priest's sacrifice of himself?

"Under it (the priesthood) the law was given to the people. . ."
The language here is not a reference to the laws of ancestry governing the priesthood, but to all the laws given by Moses.

It's a perfect question to put forth, given the mainstream preachers of that time were still promoting the Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for justification, and not Faith in God as the Law and Prophets promote, exhibited by Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, in Luke 1&2.

This "LAW" of forgiveness was to be in place "Till the SEED should come", after those days. At which time, these "works" of the Levitical Priesthood for forgiveness of sins, would become obsolete. And the manner in which men received God's Definition of Sin, would also change.
But God's definition of Sin and His instruction in righteousness, was not changed. At least, not according to Scriptures.
There are "many" who come in Christ's name, who promote all matter of false religious theories and philosophies. Jesus and the Prophets before Him, and His disciples after him, warned of these men and their doctrines and traditions of men. One such philosophy promoted by many of this world's self-proclaimed "ministers of righteousness", is that God's LAWs which defines righteousness that Jesus and all the examples of faith in the entire Bible walked in, are carnal, and weak and useless, as opposed to the temporary Priesthood law requiring the blood of animals for the forgiveness sins and required DNA from the tribe of Levi to become a Priest unto God, and to appoint other Levites into the Priesthood, "After the Order of Aaron". In other words, men with infirmity, appointing other men with infirmity into the Priesthood.
They twist Heb. 7 to promote the popular teaching which implies that God's Laws defining Sin, how to honor Him, and how to love others, became obsolete at the advent of God's Prophesied Priest. The Scriptures do not support this philosophy.

My hope in that you will re-consider the topic in Hebrews 7-10, based on what it says, and not what this world's religious philosophers teach it says.

Is not my response totally based in the Scriptures?

 

[GDL]

RE: Gal3:19:

Greek parabasis: act of deviating from an established boundary or norm. Greek usage was also “violation of law” (BDAG).

Scriptures (paraphrased) containing “parabasis”:

LXX Ps101:3 God does not set before His eyes a lawless/contrary to law (Hebrew: worthless/good for nothing) thing (word, matter, deed). God hates men doing parabasis (plural).​

​

Rom3:23 Implies the Jews who boast in law dishonor God through the parabasis of the law (context is stealing and adultery)​

​

Rom4:15 If no law, then no parabasis. Law brings wrath (this is important and a parallel to Gal3:19 – see below)​

​

Rom5:14 Adam’s parabasis is compared to the sins of those who lived from Adam to Moses who death ruled over. (parabasis is correlated to sins – then Rom4:15 ties parabasis to paraptōma which means a false step (that causes one to loose footing) – is defined as a violation of moral standards, and offense, wrongdoing (BDAG) and is sometimes seen in translations as “trespass” or “transgression” – so parabasis is correlated to sins and violations. More analysis shows all these words are essentially different concepts which can be related to walking).​

​

Gal3:19 parabasis (plural) see below​

​

1Tim2:14 Eve when deceived came into the condition of parabasis (Eve became a deviator by being deceived – deceit can cause deviation)​

​

Heb2:2 the word spoken through angels (see Gal3:19 below re: the law) became valid and every parabasis and disobedience (refusal to listen) received just (what is right) recompense. (again important to Gal3:19 and to Rom4:15)​

​

Heb9:15 The High Priest Jesus Christ (Heb9:11) is the mediator of a New Covenant. His death came about for redemption of the parabasis (plural) on the basis of the first covenant (Mosaic Cov) so the ones who had been called could receive the promise of the eternal inheritance (per the Abrahamic Cov).​

Gal3:19 points paraphrased:

A promise (of inheritance) had been made to Abraham’s Seed (Jesus Christ) (in God’s Covenant with Abraham) Gal3:16-17​

​

430 years later (Gal3:17) the (Mosaic) law (covenant) was annexed (to the Abrahamic Cov) until Abraham’s Seed (Jesus Christ) would come​

​

The (Mosaic) law (covenant) was annexed (to the Abrahamic Cov) when ordered through angels in a mediator’s hand (Moses at Mt. Sinai)​

​

The reason the (Mosaic) law (covenant) was annexed (to the Abrahamic Cov) was parabasis (plural) - deviations​

Observations:

Gal3:15 says a covenant cannot be annulled or modified (the word sometimes translated as “add” speaks of a codicil (that adds or deletes terms) being added to the covenant thus modifying it)​

​

Gal3:19 says the law (Mosaic Law Covenant) was annexed to the existing Covenant (the Greek word means to place alongside).​

​

Gal3:21 says the law (Mosaic Law Covenant) was not against/opposed to the promise (contained in the Abrahamic Covenant). So, the annexed Mosaic Law Covenant which could not provide righteousness nor give life did not modify and was not in opposition to the Abrahamic Covenant which could provide righteousness and provide life in Jesus Christ – Abraham’s Seed.​

​

Some interpreters tie this point of the reason for law annexation being parabasis (plural) to Rom7 where Paul speaks of the law making sin excessive and exposing it. IMO this is not the primary reason but a part of what the law did. IMO Gal3:19 coupled with Rom4:15 gives us more of the main reason the law was annexed: Although there was parabasis from the Garden forward – apart from law there is in effect no parabasis because there is no wrath applied to it. The law brings wrath on parabasis and then Heb2:2 says every parabasis received just recompense. Then Heb9:15 says Christ could redeem for the parabasis (plural) done on the basis of the Mosaic Law Covenant.​

​

The end of all of this is that this plural parabasis that Gal3:19 speaks of is not just the golden calf incident of Ex32. It is rather the entire scope of parabasis, sins, violations - the continuing deviations, sins and violations of men from the beginning. The Mosaic Law Covenant was annexed to / placed alongside of the Abrahamic Covenant to fence in and guard and teach a very young Israel until the Christ – the Abrahamic Seed came to newly create men by grace through [Abrahamic] faith according to God in righteousness & holiness (Eph4:24) and move them into adulthood conformed to His likeness and perfection.​

 

[GDL]

Is this not the penman telling us the priesthood (during the time of which priesthood the law was given to the people) was changed first, and then the law given

The penman is telling us the change of priesthood and the change of law was at the same time.

 

[Clare73]

The penman is telling us the change of priesthood and the change of law was at the same time.

Not quite. . .

"The law given to the people" (Heb 11:7) is the Mosaic law at Sinai, not the Covenant given to Phinehas about 40 years later, and which change in the Covenant to Phinehas was authorized about 500 years after that, which was about 1,000 years before the cross (Ps 110:4).

That "the law given to the people" is the Covenant with Phinehas, which was made 40 years after Sinai and the book of Leviticus, is just another Jewish gloss.

 

[GDL]

Not quite. . .

"The law given to the people" (Heb 11:7) is the Mosaic law at Sinai, not the Covenant given to Phinehas about 40 years later, and which change in the Covenant to Phinehas was authorized about 500 years after that, which was about 1,000 years before the cross (Ps 110:4).

That "the law given to the people" is the Covenant with Phinehas, which was made 40 years after Sinai and the book of Leviticus, is just another Jewish gloss.

Aaron/Levi was changed to Christ. When the Priesthood changed, the law simultaneously changed.

Aaron was of Levi. Everything from Aaron onward was the Levitical Priesthood. That's what Heb7:11 is saying - "the Levitical Priesthood...according to the fixed succession/order of Aaron."

 

[Clare73]

RE: Gal3:19:
Greek parabasis: act of deviating from an established boundary or norm. Greek usage was also “violation of law” (BDAG).
Scriptures (paraphrased) containing “parabasis”:

LXX Ps101:3 God does not set before His eyes a lawless/contrary to law (Hebrew: worthless/good for nothing) thing (word, matter, deed). God hates men doing parabasis (plural).​

Rom3:23 Implies the Jews who boast in law dishonor God through the parabasis of the law (context is stealing and adultery)​

​

Rom4:15 If no law, then no parabasis. Law brings wrath (this is important and a parallel to Gal3:19 – see below)​

​

Rom5:14 Adam’s parabasis is compared to the sins of those who lived from Adam to Moses who death ruled over. (parabasis is correlated to sins – then Rom4:15 ties parabasis to paraptōma which means a false step (that causes one to loose footing) – is defined as a violation of moral standards, and offense, wrongdoing (BDAG) and is sometimes seen in translations as “trespass” or “transgression” – so parabasis is correlated to sins and violations. More analysis shows all these words are essentially different concepts which can related to walking).​

​

Gal3:19 parabasis (plural) see below​

​

1Tim2:14 Eve when deceived came into the condition of parabasis (Eve became a deviator by being deceived – deceit can cause deviation)​

​

Heb2:2 the word spoken through angels (see Gal3:19 below re: the law) became valid and every parabasis and disobedience (refusal to listen) received just (what is right) recompense. (again important to Gal3:19 and to Rom4:15)​

​

Heb9:15 The High Priest Jesus Christ (Heb9:11) is the mediator of a New Covenant. His death came about for redemption of the parabasis (plural) on the basis of the first covenant (Mosaic Cov) so the ones who had been called could receive the promise of the eternal inheritance (per the Abrahamic Cov).​

Gal3:19 points paraphrased:

A promise (of inheritance) had been made to Abraham’s Seed (Jesus Christ) (in God’s Covenant with Abraham) Gal3:16-17​

​

430 years later (Gal3:17) the (Mosaic) law (covenant) was annexed (to the Abrahamic Cov) until Abraham’s Seed (Jesus Christ) would come​

​

The (Mosaic) law (covenant) was annexed (to the Abrahamic Cov) when ordered through angels in a mediator’s hand (Moses at Mt. Sinai)​

​

The reason the (Mosaic) law (covenant) was annexed (to the Abrahamic Cov) was parabasis (plural) - deviations​

Observations:

Gal3:15 says a covenant cannot be annulled or modified (the word sometimes translated as “add” speaks of a codicil (that adds or deletes terms) being added to the covenant thus modifying it)​

​

Gal3:19 says the law (Mosaic Law Covenant) was annexed to the existing Covenant (the Greek word means to place alongside).​

​

Gal3:21 says the law (Mosaic Law Covenant) was not against/opposed to the promise (contained in the Abrahamic Covenant). So, the annexed Mosaic Law Covenant which could not provide righteousness nor give life did not modify and was not in opposition to the Abrahamic Covenant which could provide righteousness and provide life in Jesus Christ – Abraham’s Seed.​

​

Some interpreters tie this point of the reason for law annexation being parabasis (plural) to Rom7 where Paul speaks of the law making sin excessive and exposing it. IMO this is not the primary reason but a part of what the law did. IMO Gal3:19 coupled with Rom4:15 gives us more of the main reason the law was annexed: Although there was parabasis from the Garden forward – apart from law there is in effect no parabasis because there is no wrath applied to it. The law brings wrath on parabasis and then Heb2:2 says every parabasis received just recompense. Then Heb9:15 says Christ could redeem for the parabasis (plural) done on the basis of the Mosaic Law Covenant.​

The end of all of this is that this plural parabasis that Gal3:19 speaks of is not just the golden calf incident of Ex32. It is rather the entire scope of parabasis, sins, violations - the continuing deviations, sins and violations of men from the beginning. The Mosaic Law Covenant was annexed to / placed alongside of the Abrahamic Covenant to fence in and guard and teach a very young Israel until the Christ – the Abrahamic Seed came to newly create men by grace through [Abrahamic] faith according to God in righteousness & holiness (Eph4:24) and move them into adulthood conformed to His likeness and perfection.​

Thanks for the word study. . .you know how much I appreciate them.

Sin abounded before Sinai, but where there is no law (with death penalty), sin is not accounted against them (causing death. . .yet all died). Ro 5:12-15

God gave the law to reveal sin; i.e.,
to convince the Jews that although they were God's people, they were still sinners as well as others,
to restrain them from committing sin, and
to show them the only way that sin was atoned for; i.e., through death and sacrifice, "till the Seed should come..."

 

[Clare73]

Aaron/Levi was changed to Christ. When the Priesthood changed, the law simultaneously changed.

Agreed, the Mosaic law (as in Leviticus) changed with Christ when the Mosaic (Old) Covenant was made obsolete (Heb 8:13).

Aaron was of Levi. Everything from Aaron onward was the Levitical Priesthood. That's what Heb7:11 is saying - "the Levitical Priesthood...according to the fixed succession/order of Aaron."

There is no "priesthood law" establishing the Levitical priesthood other than the laws given to the people at Sinai from the Tent of Meeting in Lev (1:1).
Studyman maintains that the Covenant with Phinehas is the priesthood "law" that was changed in Heb 7:12.

However, the law of Heb 7:12 is the law of Heb 7:11, which is the law given to the people, which was at Sinai during the time of the Levitical priesthood (Heb 7:11), while
the Covenant with Phinehas was neither given to the people, nor given at Sinai, but given to Phinehas 40 years after Sinai.

Yes, Heb 7:11 is saying
the Levitical priesthood of Aaron "(during the time of which the law was given to the people)" was changed.
Heb 7:11 is not saying that the Covenant with Phinehas (i.e., Levitical priesthood) was changed, because that didn't even exist until 40 years after "the law was given to the people" at Sinai.
The Covenant with Phinehas is not the priesthood "law" that was changed.
The "law" that was changed (Heb 7:12) is "the law given to the people" (Heb 7:11) by Moses at Sinai 40 years earlier.

 

[GDL]

Thanks for the word study. . .you know how much I appreciate them.

Sin abounded before Sinai, but where there is no law (with death penalty), sin is not accounted against them (causing death. . .yet all died). Ro 5:12-15

God gave the law to reveal sin; i.e.,
to convince the Jews that although they were God's people, they were still sinners as well as others,
to restrain them from committing sin, and
to show them the only way that sin was atoned for; i.e., through death and sacrifice, "till the Seed should come..."

Sure.

God also gave law to bring forth His wrath Rom4:15.

I saw Heb10 being discussed. Law was also prophetic - it had a shadow of things to come as you pick up in part in your last statement.

Many things to include here.

 

[Clare73]

Sure.

God also gave law to bring forth His wrath Rom4:15.

Does Scripture state that was the purpose of sin or the result of sin?

I saw Heb10 being discussed.

Yes, our High Priest offered a better sacrifice than did the Levitical priesthood.

Law was also prophetic - it had a shadow of things to come as you pick up in part in your last statement.

Indeed. . .the Levical laws contained numerous patterns/types of Christ.

Many things to include here.

Yes, Ro 5:12-15 is a can of worms.

 

[GDL]

Agreed, the Mosaic law (as in Leviticus) changed with Christ when the Mosaic (Old) Covenant was made obsolete (Heb 8:13).

Yes, it's saying
the Levitical priesthood of Aaron "(during the time of which the law was given to the people)" was changed (Heb 7:11).
Heb 7:11 is not saying that the Covenant with Phinehas (i.e., Levitical priesthood of Phinehas) was changed, because that didn't even exist until 40 years after "the law was given to the people."
The Covenant with Phinehas is not the "priesthood law" that was changed.

While Studyman is saying the "Priesthood law" which changed (Heb 7:11) was the Covenant with Phinehas made 40 years after "during the time of the Levitical priesthood (when) the law was given to the people" at Sinai.

This all gets a bit confused through varying terminology of ones posting.

The Aaronic Priesthood AKA the Levitical Priesthood is part of the Law of Moses as God repeatedly said Aaron and sons were to serve Him as Priests.

The Covenant of Peace God cut with Phinehas - Aaron's grandson - was for the continuation of the Aaronic line for an era (until Christ's Priesthood). When we get to the NC Writings, Zacharias can be traced back to be from Levi and Aaron. The Text in Luke 1:5 makes sure we can trace this.

In Heb7:11, which we discussed in part a bit earlier, it's not using the typical word for "given" (the law was given to the people). This word (nomotheteo) more literally means to legislate. It's used only twice in the NC - Heb7:11; Heb8:6. In the OC it's used mainly to translate a word that can mean "teach, instruct, direct" - see the end of Deut17:10 dealing with the Levitical Priests (context) and judgments for example. See also the end of Ex24:12 re: Moses and the tablets - the law & commandments. This is really not the giving of the law. It's rather the continual teaching & use of the law by Moses and the Priests in the nation.

 

[GDL]

Does Scripture state that was the purpose of sin or the result of sin?

It states that the reason law was given was to bring God's wrath against parabasis (deviations), sins, violations. The wording in Gal3:19 is a bit interesting in how it brings out "reason" but when tied with Rom4:15 by "parabasis" all is made clear IMO.

Obviously, there are more things stated about what law was doing, some of which you mentioned.

Yes, Ro 5:12-15 is a can of worms.

Law is a can of wild worms causing chaos in the household when let loose.

 

[Clare73]

This all gets a bit confused through varying terminology of ones posting.
The Aaronic Priesthood AKA the Levitical Priesthood is part of the Law of Moses as God repeatedly said Aaron and sons were to serve Him as Priests.
The Covenant of Peace God cut with Phinehas

Was it cut (in blood) or just promised?

- Aaron's grandson - was for the continuation of the Aaronic line for an era (until Christ's Priesthood). When we get to the NC Writings, Zacharias can be traced back to be from Levi and Aaron. The Text in Luke 1:5 makes sure we can trace this.

Was it the Aaronic line or the line of Phinehas, for Aaron had other sons who genealogically would be of the Aaronic line?

In Heb7:11, which we discussed in part a bit earlier, it's not using the typical word for "given" (the law was given to the people).

From my post #147:

Nestle Greek text (translated by Rev. Alfred Marshall D. Litt.)
"If therefore perfection was through the Levitical priestly office (for under it the people had been furnished with law), why yet need another priest to arise and not to be said according to the order of Aaron? For the priestly office being changed there occurs also of necessity a change of law." (Heb 7:11-12)

"For on one hand there comes about an annulment of the preceding commandment because of the weakness and unprofitable(ness) of it, for the law perfected nothing; on the other a bringing in of a better hope through which we draw near to God." (Heb 7:18-19)

This word (nomotheteo) more literally means to legislate. It's used only twice in the NC - Heb7:11; Heb8:6. In the OC it's used mainly to translate a word that can mean "teach, instruct, direct" - see the end of Deut17:10 dealing with the Levitical Priests (context) and judgments for example. See also the end of Ex24:12 re: Moses and the tablets - the law & commandments. This is really not the giving of the law. It's rather the continual teaching & use of the law by Moses and the Priests in the nation.