Is Calvinism a heresy?

[maxamir]

Jesus mentions two kinds of drawing in the book of John

1. The pre-Calvary Father drawing of OT believers to His Son in John 6:35-65.
2. The post-Calvary Jesus drawing of all men to Himself in John 12:32.

Pre-Calvary drawing by the Father​

Jesus references the Father’s pre-Calvary Ingathering of the true worshippers of God in Israel, that is, people like Nathanael who was a faithful, believing Jew (John 1:47-51), for the purpose of contradicting the claims of His critics who argued that all true disciples of Moses were necessarily compelled to act against Him.

Who is the Father giving (John 10:37), drawing (John 10:44) and granting (John 10:65) to come to Christ?

(a) Calvinism: Unbelieving “dead rebel sinners” and “total haters of God” who happen to be elect, and on that account are regenerated from being reprobates into saints.​

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or​

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(b) Non-Calvinism: Old Covenant believers who “believed Moses” (John 5:46), who had “heard and learned from the Father” (John 6:45), who are “willing to do His will” (John 7:17) and whose “father“ is “God.” (John 8:42), to go from being the Father’s faithful followers to Jesus’ followers.​

Post-Calvary drawing by the Son​

Jesus did not meet the Jew’s messianic expectations of a warring conqueror, and moreover, Jesus’ use of parables would still reveal truth to those who wanted it and who were willing to submit themselves to God. Nevertheless, Jesus was pointing to a future time after Calvary that He would draw everyone, Jew and Gentile alike. This is partly evidenced in the fact that after Calvary, even those who crucified Jesus were being convicted, and who asked how they too could be saved.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Avoid making it personal by saying my heart is hardened to truth.

Shotgun Hermeneutics Some people seem to think they can win theology debates by simply quoting a lot of Bible verses, as if the other person was not aware of those verses and had never read them in the Bible.

None of the five points of Calvinism is clearly explained in the Bible. Its not like the fact that God desires all people to be saved - which Calvinists reject even though the Bible clearly states it in 1 Timothy 2:4.

I am not hear to win any kind of debate as I know it is impossible for anyone to know truth through the intellect alone, therefore I trust that the Lord will honour the faithful proclamation of who He is in His word and answer the prayers He has placed in my heart to pray for you and all those who are yet to be humbled and bow before the sovereign God of Holy Scripture.

It is up to the individual to see whether these things be so and have discernment which comes only to those who love the truth. Those who continue to refuse to hear the truth objectively can only be described as being judicially blinded to it and hard of heart.

Those who consistently argue for their free will choice and faith in their faith in Christ are not yet regenerated and remain under the curse (Jer 17:5) until God grants to them by the foolishness of Gospel preaching and His words watered by loving prayer, His grace to see as the Lord did to Lydia (Acts 16:14).

 

[John Mullally]

The promise of salvation is indeed to those who believe but the demons believe and tremble and they are not saved(Jam 2:19)

Not everyone who hears the Gospel is given saving faith as it is only given to His sheep.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
Joh 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Similarly, John 18:37 states: “‘Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.’” John 8:43 states: “‘Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.’”

1. “My sheep” is an idiomatic metaphor used in the first century to indicate “one who follows me.” Sheep were followers.

2. This is Jesus’ way of simply saying, “You do not believe because you are not following Me, just as you were not following my Father before Me.” If they had been followers of the Father, He would have gladly given and drawn them to His Son. The objectors were not right with God, and Jesus was calling attention to that fact, in order to truly help them, which is because Jesus really does love His enemies. Jesus came to save the condemned, not to condemn those who are already condemned.

3. It’s certainly not the same as saying, “You do not believe because you weren’t elected from before the foundation of the world.”

4. While it’s true that they were not of God and were not of Christ’s sheep, what did Jesus tell them? He said of those who were “not of My sheep” to consider the evidence of the miracles so that they can become one of His sheep: “‘If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.’” (John 10:37-38) So people who do not believe in Jesus and who are declared by Him to not be one of His sheep (followers), still can be. Their predicament was not fixed and unchangeable.

The goats who are also seen in Scripture as the tares, the chaff, the seed of the serpent, the children of the devil and the reprobate are never given what God justly commands to all.

Jesus termed his opponents as "not my sheep". The term "goat" is only applied at the last judgement - thus no one is predestined as reprobate.

You refuse to read my article which biblically explains the doctrine of who man is because it exposes the false man-centred gospel that you proclaim, which is no gospel at all and those who proclaim another gospel are said to be doubly accursed, which is why I am lovingly warning you and others here of your error and pray that the Lord would humble you this side of eternity to see it.

I have been responding to most of your arguments; whereas you are not responding directly to my arguments. I generally do not respond to lengthy internet articles.

Calvinists believe that non-Calvinism is necessarily man-centered, rather than God-centered, if the choice of salvation is left up to the sinner’s own decision to humble themselves, confess their sins and ask God for forgiveness, rather than God irresistibly making the choice for them. Nonetheless, that becomes a moot point if God chose the non-Calvinist paradigm over Calvinism as His system of providence. In other words, how can you tell God that His system of providence is “man-centered” if He ultimately chose it as something that brings Him the most glory?

Man’s free-will does not change the fact that salvation hinges on God alone. For instance, if a sinner asks God for forgiveness, it remains entirely God’s choice whether to grant it. Consider the analogy of the parable of the Prodigal Son. Did the son’s return in humility force the father to restore him? In that culture, the father may have had the right to simply have him stoned. So, for the father to instead forgive and restore him, after bearing the full cost of his son’s misdeeds, means that it was the father’s unnecessitated, free choice to simply be gracious, when he otherwise didn’t have to.

 

[John Mullally]

I am not hear to win any kind of debate as I know it is impossible for anyone to know truth through the intellect alone, therefore I trust that the Lord will honour the faithful proclamation of who He is in His word and answer the prayers He has placed in my heart to pray for you and all those who are yet to be humbled and bow before the sovereign God of Holy Scripture.

As a non-Calvinist I know our actions are part of what makes the future. If we choose to pray, or not to pray, that’s part of what defines the future. So, this sense of being able to affect the future gives us a reason to pray—we can make a difference! But, if Calvinists feel that living under a sense of Christianized fatalism makes things better for them, then great, but for non-Calvinists, it’s the very opposite, in so much that if there is no sense of inevitability of “what will be will be,” then we are motivated all the more to engage with God and pray.

It is up to the individual to see whether these things be so and have discernment which comes only to those who love the truth. Those who continue to refuse to hear the truth objectively can only be described as being judicially blinded to it and hard of heart.

Those who consistently argue for their free will choice and faith in their faith in Christ are not yet regenerated and remain under the curse (Jer 17:5) until God grants to them by the foolishness of Gospel preaching and His words watered by loving prayer, His grace to see as the Lord did to Lydia (Acts 16:14).

You don't have to believe Calvinist doctrine (which is fatalistic, negates man's free-will, and calls faith a work) in order to be saved. God honors His word and keeps His promises. Claiming God's promises is not saving yourself.

Calvinists conflate faith with works. From the Calvinistic perspective, any religion that teaches that salvation comes about by anything other than an “Irresistible Grace,” necessarily makes salvation into a works-based process, because (as it is reasoned) once you incorporate any act of the human will, what is left is some element of human contribution in the process. So, when Calvinists say that “salvation is of the Lord” (Jonah 2:9), what they really mean is that God does everything in salvation, including the act of faith, on behalf of the elect-person, by overcoming their resistance through an irresistible gift of pre-faith regeneration. In other words, Calvinists believe that faith becomes a “work” whenever we come to think of faith as something that we do ourselves, absent of an Irresistible Grace. This means that in Calvinism, faith without Irresistible Grace = works.

Lydia (Acts 16:13-15) Lydia is said to have been a “worshiper of God.” She was not yet a Christian but was about to be presented with the gospel. It is added to the narrative that “the Lord opened her heart to respond” to Paul’s message. So, what does that mean? In what way had the Lord “opened her heart”? It’s easy to make assumptions, and unfortunately, bad assumptions make for bad theology. 1 Corinthians 1:21 and 1 Thessalonians 2:13 suggest it occurs upon hearing the message of the Gospel.

 

[jameslouise]

My first sentence is that if one isolates the first half of Ephesians 1:4, one might think God is selecting which individuals will be saved.

That is where we have our difference of interpretation, I suggest God is electing everyone to be Holy and without blame.-and plans as such. Maxamir's interpretation seems as valid as yours with these verses, both seem unsatisfactory to me as God seems to be having a 'relationship' with a 'prophetic projection' but there is another way to look at them.

Acts 17:28 gives the answer
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring
In him-The preceding verse are Paul describing God’s attributes making this ‘Him ‘ as most likely applying to God the Father only
we live,-we have an existence and are alive. The ‘we’ meaning all mankind or the people who were in Paul’s vicinity.
and move- we move around
and have our being; we are a person, an entity and not a prophetic projection
as certain also of your own poets have said,- a time frame is set- this time frame being the time of your ‘old poets’ and this being well before Jesus’ time and so confirms the ‘in him’ cannot be referring to Jesus indwellings as it is before Jesus' time on Earth and not available.
For we are also his offspring- why did we have this existence ? Because we were His offspring. Note the way it does not say we were created or we were made. This is . I believe , an indication that we were made from God Himself. A ‘copy and paste’ of his ‘tissue’ just as our indwellings are a ‘copy and paste’ of Jesus and The Holy Spirit’s. ‘In his image’ being satisfied in both cases. Note the use of ‘also’ meaning both God the Father’s as well as the relationship with Jesus mentioned in verse 27.

The text is unequivocal, man, all men had a preexistence before their arrival on Earth. With this knowledge alone Calvinism crumbles. Those he Foreknew becomes everybody. I have much more scripture to back this stance if you wish.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified

You miss off verse 28 which describes a people group 'who love God and who are called'. The whole of verses 28-30 describe what God does for this people group. In effect the called, justified and glorified has been selected by the 'loving'. The text says NOTHING about what God does for those who do not love him or do not love him yet. From this text he may do something for them too he may not- you cannot say. Calvinists interpret the text to mean it is the foreknowing and predestination that is selecting the called, justified and glorified,but logically that need not be so.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day

Again logically, this has nothing to do with Calvinism, it does not mean that God does not draw people who reject Christ too. it only means that God must draw you, nothing else, you cannot do it on your own, it does not say he selectively draws some and not others. The rejectors of John 12:48 must have been offered Christ, as the only valid offer is from The Holy Spirit is that not God drawing them too?

 

[John Mullally]

That is where we have our difference of interpretation, I suggest God is electing everyone to be Holy and without blame.-and plans as such. Maxamir's interpretation seems as valid as yours with these verses, both seem unsatisfactory to me as God seems to be having a 'relationship' with a 'prophetic projection' but there is another way to look at them.

I don't know how you have a problem with the following that you referenced. Calvinist commonly quote Ephesians 1:4 to support their position that God predestines some to heaven from the FOTW and rest to hell - but in doing so I am saying here that they are taking that verse out of context. That is what I was trying to point out.

My first sentence is that if one isolates the first half of Ephesians 1:4, one might think God is selecting which individuals will be saved.

I believe that God desires all people to be saved and has good plans for all (Jeremiah 29:11). If you believe God elects everyone to be Holy, you will run into a problem with Matthew 24:24 as it seems to indicate that not everyone is elect.

Matthew 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.​

 

[maxamir]

Similarly, John 18:37 states: “‘Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.’” John 8:43 states: “‘Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.’”

1. “My sheep” is an idiomatic metaphor used in the first century to indicate “one who follows me.” Sheep were followers.

2. This is Jesus’ way of simply saying, “You do not believe because you are not following Me, just as you were not following my Father before Me.” If they had been followers of the Father, He would have gladly given and drawn them to His Son. The objectors were not right with God, and Jesus was calling attention to that fact, in order to truly help them, which is because Jesus really does love His enemies. Jesus came to save the condemned, not to condemn those who are already condemned.

3. It’s certainly not the same as saying, “You do not believe because you weren’t elected from before the foundation of the world.”

4. While it’s true that they were not of God and were not of Christ’s sheep, what did Jesus tell them? He said of those who were “not of My sheep” to consider the evidence of the miracles so that they can become one of His sheep: “‘If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.’” (John 10:37-38) So people who do not believe in Jesus and who are declared by Him to not be one of His sheep (followers), still can be. Their predicament was not fixed and unchangeable.

Jesus termed his opponents as "not my sheep". The term "goat" is only applied at the last judgement - thus no one is predestined as reprobate.

I have been responding to most of your arguments; whereas you are not responding directly to my arguments. I generally do not respond to lengthy internet articles.

Calvinists believe that non-Calvinism is necessarily man-centered, rather than God-centered, if the choice of salvation is left up to the sinner’s own decision to humble themselves, confess their sins and ask God for forgiveness, rather than God irresistibly making the choice for them. Nonetheless, that becomes a moot point if God chose the non-Calvinist paradigm over Calvinism as His system of providence. In other words, how can you tell God that His system of providence is “man-centered” if He ultimately chose it as something that brings Him the most glory?

Man’s free-will does not change the fact that salvation hinges on God alone. For instance, if a sinner asks God for forgiveness, it remains entirely God’s choice whether to grant it. Consider the analogy of the parable of the Prodigal Son. Did the son’s return in humility force the father to restore him? In that culture, the father may have had the right to simply have him stoned. So, for the father to instead forgive and restore him, after bearing the full cost of his son’s misdeeds, means that it was the father’s unnecessitated, free choice to simply be gracious, when he otherwise didn’t have to.

Christ specifically said Joh 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

They could not believe because they were not His sheep for whom He laid down His life for (John 10:11,15)

I have asked you many questions which you continually refuse to answer pertaining to predestination which is mentioned in Scripture and whether God loves everyone including those He justly casts into Hell but you continue to ignore them because you know that they deny your man-centred gospel.

I believe you said in a reply to John 6:44. 65 that God worked differently in men before Christ's death and resurrection but the Scriptures plainly say that Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever (Heb 13:8) and it was the Lord who added to the church daily those who were being saved after the resurrection (Acts 2:47) and it was not men adding themselves.

It is the Gospel that is the power of God for salvation and not miracles which were proof of Christ's deity as was witnessed in what Christ said to those who saw His miracles and did not repent. The greatest miracle that Christ performs is His changing the heart of stone to a heart of flesh.

The question that every person must ask themselves is not whether they have chosen God but whether God has chosen them, because only those who are appointed to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48). This is why people are exhorted with the Scriptures below.

2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble

Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

Those who die never examining themselves, prove themselves to be reprobate.

There were many who said they believed and even said they had done great wonders for the Lord but Christ replied to such as trusted in themselves and their works with the following words.

Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

 

[maxamir]

As a non-Calvinist I know our actions are part of what makes the future. If we choose to pray, or not to pray, that’s part of what defines the future. So, this sense of being able to affect the future gives us a reason to pray—we can make a difference! But, if Calvinists feel that living under a sense of Christianized fatalism makes things better for them, then great, but for non-Calvinists, it’s the very opposite, in so much that if there is no sense of inevitability of “what will be will be,” then we are motivated all the more to engage with God and pray.

You don't have to believe Calvinist doctrine (which is fatalistic, negates man's free-will, and calls faith a work) in order to be saved. God honors His word and keeps His promises. Claiming God's promises is not saving yourself.

Calvinists conflate faith with works. From the Calvinistic perspective, any religion that teaches that salvation comes about by anything other than an “Irresistible Grace,” necessarily makes salvation into a works-based process, because (as it is reasoned) once you incorporate any act of the human will, what is left is some element of human contribution in the process. So, when Calvinists say that “salvation is of the Lord” (Jonah 2:9), what they really mean is that God does everything in salvation, including the act of faith, on behalf of the elect-person, by overcoming their resistance through an irresistible gift of pre-faith regeneration. In other words, Calvinists believe that faith becomes a “work” whenever we come to think of faith as something that we do ourselves, absent of an Irresistible Grace. This means that in Calvinism, faith without Irresistible Grace = works.

Lydia (Acts 16:13-15) Lydia is said to have been a “worshiper of God.” She was not yet a Christian but was about to be presented with the gospel. It is added to the narrative that “the Lord opened her heart to respond” to Paul’s message. So, what does that mean? In what way had the Lord “opened her heart”? It’s easy to make assumptions, and unfortunately, bad assumptions make for bad theology. 1 Corinthians 1:21 and 1 Thessalonians 2:13 suggest it occurs upon hearing the message of the Gospel.

Indeed faith comes by hearing the word of God and the means that God uses to grant the gift of faith (Eph 2:8) is the preaching of the Gospel.

You say that a man is saved because he believes but God declares that He loves some and not others not based upon anything they do because He has chosen to do so before they were even born.

Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

so it is not man's will that saves but God's,

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jas 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

because God makes His people willing in the day of His power (Psalm 110:3) by showing them who He really is so that they can see who they truly are and then see their desperate need for grace in Christ. Once again, where was Paul's so called free will when God threw him to the ground?

It is because people like yourself refuse to acknowledge that God is the Potter and you are the clay, that you despise the doctrine of His sovereign election which is meant to cause people to fear God and know that only He can save them and not they themselves. It is only until God humbles you to see your clayness and dusthood that you will finally realise this and give Him all the glory He dutifully deserves.

 

[maxamir]

As a non-Calvinist I know our actions are part of what makes the future. If we choose to pray, or not to pray, that’s part of what defines the future. So, this sense of being able to affect the future gives us a reason to pray—we can make a difference! But, if Calvinists feel that living under a sense of Christianized fatalism makes things better for them, then great, but for non-Calvinists, it’s the very opposite, in so much that if there is no sense of inevitability of “what will be will be,” then we are motivated all the more to engage with God and pray.

You don't have to believe Calvinist doctrine (which is fatalistic, negates man's free-will, and calls faith a work) in order to be saved. God honors His word and keeps His promises. Claiming God's promises is not saving yourself.

Calvinists conflate faith with works. From the Calvinistic perspective, any religion that teaches that salvation comes about by anything other than an “Irresistible Grace,” necessarily makes salvation into a works-based process, because (as it is reasoned) once you incorporate any act of the human will, what is left is some element of human contribution in the process. So, when Calvinists say that “salvation is of the Lord” (Jonah 2:9), what they really mean is that God does everything in salvation, including the act of faith, on behalf of the elect-person, by overcoming their resistance through an irresistible gift of pre-faith regeneration. In other words, Calvinists believe that faith becomes a “work” whenever we come to think of faith as something that we do ourselves, absent of an Irresistible Grace. This means that in Calvinism, faith without Irresistible Grace = works.

Lydia (Acts 16:13-15) Lydia is said to have been a “worshiper of God.” She was not yet a Christian but was about to be presented with the gospel. It is added to the narrative that “the Lord opened her heart to respond” to Paul’s message. So, what does that mean? In what way had the Lord “opened her heart”? It’s easy to make assumptions, and unfortunately, bad assumptions make for bad theology. 1 Corinthians 1:21 and 1 Thessalonians 2:13 suggest it occurs upon hearing the message of the Gospel.

those who do not believe that God is sovereign in all things have no reason to hope that God would be able to answer any of their prayers and have no logical reason to pray for the souls of others because God will supposedly not negate their so called free will.

Those who believe that the future is in God's hands and not their own can simply trust Him who can not lie, that He will work all things for good to them no matter what the circumstances (Rom 8:28).

If a man says he is saved because he has faith then he has something in which to boast but God has declared otherwise and grace would not be a gift of God but something man has earned contrary to grace and all of Scripture which gives God all the glory.

1Co 1:26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
1Co 1:27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
1Co 1:29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
1Co 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—
1Co 1:31 that, as it is written, "HE WHO GLORIES, LET HIM GLORY IN THE LORD."

Faith is a work of righteousness that is a means through which God saves His people and not a condition to salvation.

Tit 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

 

[maxamir]

That is where we have our difference of interpretation, I suggest God is electing everyone to be Holy and without blame.-and plans as such. Maxamir's interpretation seems as valid as yours with these verses, both seem unsatisfactory to me as God seems to be having a 'relationship' with a 'prophetic projection' but there is another way to look at them.

Acts 17:28 gives the answer
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring
In him-The preceding verse are Paul describing God’s attributes making this ‘Him ‘ as most likely applying to God the Father only
we live,-we have an existence and are alive. The ‘we’ meaning all mankind or the people who were in Paul’s vicinity.
and move- we move around
and have our being; we are a person, an entity and not a prophetic projection
as certain also of your own poets have said,- a time frame is set- this time frame being the time of your ‘old poets’ and this being well before Jesus’ time and so confirms the ‘in him’ cannot be referring to Jesus indwellings as it is before Jesus' time on Earth and not available.
For we are also his offspring- why did we have this existence ? Because we were His offspring. Note the way it does not say we were created or we were made. This is . I believe , an indication that we were made from God Himself. A ‘copy and paste’ of his ‘tissue’ just as our indwellings are a ‘copy and paste’ of Jesus and The Holy Spirit’s. ‘In his image’ being satisfied in both cases. Note the use of ‘also’ meaning both God the Father’s as well as the relationship with Jesus mentioned in verse 27.

The text is unequivocal, man, all men had a preexistence before their arrival on Earth. With this knowledge alone Calvinism crumbles. Those he Foreknew becomes everybody. I have much more scripture to back this stance if you wish.


You miss off verse 28 which describes a people group 'who love God and who are called'. The whole of verses 28-30 describe what God does for this people group. In effect the called, justified and glorified has been selected by the 'loving'. The text says NOTHING about what God does for those who do not love him or do not love him yet. From this text he may do something for them too he may not- you cannot say. Calvinists interpret the text to mean it is the foreknowing and predestination that is selecting the called, justified and glorified,but logically that need not be so.

Again logically, this has nothing to do with Calvinism, it does not mean that God does not draw people who reject Christ too. it only means that God must draw you, nothing else, you cannot do it on your own, it does not say he selectively draws some and not others. The rejectors of John 12:48 must have been offered Christ, as the only valid offer is from The Holy Spirit is that not God drawing them too?

Surely you agree that God is omniscient and knows all things but the word foreknew means to have intimate knowledge of, just as Joseph knew Mary after Christ was born (Mat 1:25) does not mean that he didn't know about her beforehand and so God who is eternal loves those who love Him because He first loved them (Pro 8:17, I Jn 4:19) and gave His Son to secure salvation for them alone whom He foreknew, predestined and called through the Gospel unto justification by grace though faith in Christ.

Any view that tends to a universal justification of everyone is heresy.

 

[John Mullally]

Christ specifically said Joh 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

They could not believe because they were not His sheep for whom He laid down His life for (John 10:11,15)

You assume that these "not of My Sheep" were a lost cause. Jesus did not see it that way as He tried His best to reason with the religious elite, such as pointing to the compelling evidence of His miracles. (John 10:37-38). According to Acts 2:36-41, some of those who contributed to killing Christ were later saved.

I have asked you many questions which you continually refuse to answer pertaining to predestination which is mentioned in Scripture and whether God loves everyone including those He justly casts into Hell but you continue to ignore them because you know that they deny your man-centred gospel.

I have spoken plenty on predestination. There is plenty to critique.

Man is involved in responding positively to the Gospel message as God is not pulling strings.

I believe you said in a reply to John 6:44. 65 that God worked differently in men before Christ's death and resurrection but the Scriptures plainly say that Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever (Heb 13:8) and it was the Lord who added to the church daily those who were being saved after the resurrection (Acts 2:47) and it was not men adding themselves.

Before Calvary, Israel was under the Old Covenant. After Calvary, believers are under the New Covenant. Thus God's dealings with mankind changed after Calvary. There was no Church before Calvary.

People are judged - God does not assign anyone to Hell before they are born as Calvin teaches as that would be unjust. God desires all people be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).

Christ taught that we should count the cost in making decisions. You insinuate that anyone who makes a conscious decision to follow Christ based upon hearing the Gospel preached as Peter did in Acts 2:36-41 are false converts as they have added themselves to the Church. In Acts 2:36-41 pleaded with the crowd and promised them that they would receive salvation (i.e. forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit) if they repent and are baptized. That is the scriptural pattern for preaching the Gospel People in that day joining the Church risked serious persecution, which is not so common in the USA. - so there are more false conversions today.

The question that every person must ask themselves is not whether they have chosen God but whether God has chosen them, because only those who are appointed to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48). This is why people are exhorted with the Scriptures below.

2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble

Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

Concerning Acts 13:48, its also true that only those who believe are appointed to eternal life (multiple scriptures). That means if you have one (believe), you have the other (appointed to eternal life), but Acts 13:48 says nothing about this appointment being made from the FOTW.

If you sin are you then not saved? How much sin? Regeneration only affects our spirit and the Lord communicates with us through our spirit (Proverbs 20:27). Believers still have to subjugate their flesh (God will not do that - see 1 Corinthians 9:27) and believers need to transform their mind by God's word (God will not do that).

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.​

 

[John Mullally]

those who do not believe that God is sovereign in all things have no reason to hope that God would be able to answer any of their prayers and have no logical reason to pray for the souls of others because God will supposedly not negate their so called free will.

Non-Calvinists also believe God is Sovereign - which includes keep His word and the promises which He gave us. God can certainly be Sovereign without determining everything that comes to pass. Although, I do not believe God changes a person's free-will, He will sometimes use persuasive means (as seen with Jonah and Paul). God used persuasive means with Balaam, but that did not help him (read Jude). Concerning prayer for the unsaved: we can pray that others who are influential will share the Gospel with them.

Those who believe that the future is in God's hands and not their own can simply trust Him who can not lie, that He will work all things for good to them no matter what the circumstances (Rom 8:28).

Paul did not view Romans 8:28 the same way you do as he was on guard to keep from being disqualified (1 Corinthians 9:27).

If a man says he is saved because he has faith then he has something in which to boast but God has declared otherwise and grace would not be a gift of God but something man has earned contrary to grace and all of Scripture which gives God all the glory.

Calvinists: Having faith in being one of Calvinism’s elect is precarious since God never promised anyone “special election to salvation.” Instead, God promised eternal life to whoever believes in His Son. (John 3:16) So, Calvinists are in jeopardy if they are trusting in their feelings to be “elect” (based upon whatever “works” that make them feel elect) and also in jeopardy if they are taking it on faith that God promised them an unconditional election since God never promised anyone any such thing

In the Calvinist worldview where God determines whatsoever comes to pass, as the Calvinistic scholars affirm, it must be said that those who are self-deceived are such ultimately because God has so determined it. If you happen to be one of the individuals whom God has destined to remain in self-deception—falsely believing that you are saved when in actuality you are not—then you could not know this fact until after Judgment Day.

Non-Calvinists: Calvinists accuse non-Calvinists of boasting of their wisdom and intelligence, in having chosen Christ while others refused, but I don’t know of any non-Calvinist who promotes such a thing. Non-Calvinists, instead, often speak of being a sinner saved by grace. Obviously, that is not Irresistible Grace, but rather the grace of God provided at Calvary which provided the means of salvation for the whole world. The irony, of course, is that Calvinists refer to themselves as “elect,” not in terms of being a Christian, but “elect” as God prefers them over the non-elect.

 

[John Mullally]

Indeed faith comes by hearing the word of God and the means that God uses to grant the gift of faith (Eph 2:8) is the preaching of the Gospel.

You say that a man is saved because he believes but God declares that He loves some and not others not based upon anything they do because He has chosen to do so before they were even born.

Given that faith comes by hearing the word of God, God is not barring anyone from obtaining faith as we can all choose to listen to God's word. The gift in Ephesians 2:8 is salvation not faith. As Romans 6:23 confirms that the gift is "eternal life". Going back to Ephesians 2:8 we see that gift of salvation is by grace through faith.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

​

God's love for all mankind is observed in Christ's propitiation (1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2;2) for all. 1 Timothy 4:10 says that God is the Savior of all mankind. How can God predestine anyone to Hell, as Calvin asserts, when Paul terms God as the Savior of all people.

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

so it is not man's will that saves but God's,

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Chapters 9-11 of Romans are about Paul's anguish over Israel.

Romans 9:10-13 speak of God choosing Jacob over Esau. In the OT, the descendants of Jacob are God's chosen people.

God’s mercy is clearly not “of him who wills,” since such willing and running, pursuing and seeking, are characterized at Romans 9:30-32 and Romans 10:1-4 as the “works” of the Law by unbelieving Israel, in contrast to the “faith” of the believing Gentiles. God’s mercy is instead achieved by “the one who does not work” but instead “believes in Him who justifies the ungodly” in which “his faith is credited as righteousness.” (Romans 4:5).

Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Calvinists take John 1:13 to mean that we do not—by our own mind, will and heart—self-determine to believe in Christ, but rather that God causes it as part of a regenerative, Irresistible Grace. However, the text never states that we are made Born Again in order to receive Christ.

Jas 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

There is no question that God is the source of salvation. Had he not chosen to save, then no one would be saved. But the question remains as to the means by which we receive salvation. That is, does God save us apart from our free choice or through it? Nothing in this text, or any other for that matter, declares that God chooses to save us against our will.

Tit 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

He does not save any man on the basis of any merit of his own (Titus 3:4-7), but rather by His grace and by the merits of Jesus Christ, His Son.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Does the Bible show that the apostles often ridiculed free-will, as Calvinists do? Did the apostles ever warn us about the peril of when faith can become a work, in the absence of Irresistible Grace? Did they ever tell us that humanity is born completely unable to receive God’s free gift of grace? Did they ever tell us that Jesus did not die for everyone? Did they ever tell us that humanity is composed of those who are born “elect” with a birthright for Heaven versus those who are born “non-elect” as predestined for Hell? Did they ever push a version of “sovereignty” necessitating God having to determine whatsoever comes to pass, though without making Him culpable for the sin that He ordains, due to first causes? Calvinists will insist that every one of these things is clearly in Scripture, even though it is completely assumed in the texts provided.

 

[maxamir]

You assume that these "not of My Sheep" were a lost cause. Jesus did not see it that way as He tried His best to reason with the religious elite, such as pointing to the compelling evidence of His miracles. (John 10:37-38). According to Acts 2:36-41, some of those who contributed to killing Christ were later saved.

I have spoken plenty on predestination. There is plenty to critique.

Man is involved in responding positively to the Gospel message as God is not pulling strings.

Before Calvary, Israel was under the Old Covenant. After Calvary, believers are under the New Covenant. Thus God's dealings with mankind changed after Calvary. There was no Church before Calvary.

People are judged - God does not assign anyone to Hell before they are born as Calvin teaches as that would be unjust. God desires all people be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).

Christ taught that we should count the cost in making decisions. You insinuate that anyone who makes a conscious decision to follow Christ based upon hearing the Gospel preached as Peter did in Acts 2:36-41 are false converts as they have added themselves to the Church. In Acts 2:36-41 pleaded with the crowd and promised them that they would receive salvation (i.e. forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit) if they repent and are baptized. That is the scriptural pattern for preaching the Gospel People in that day joining the Church risked serious persecution, which is not so common in the USA. - so there are more false conversions today.

Concerning Acts 13:48, its also true that only those who believe are appointed to eternal life (multiple scriptures). That means if you have one (believe), you have the other (appointed to eternal life), but Acts 13:48 says nothing about this appointment being made from the FOTW.

If you sin are you then not saved? How much sin? Regeneration only affects our spirit and the Lord communicates with us through our spirit (Proverbs 20:27). Believers still have to subjugate their flesh (God will not do that - see 1 Corinthians 9:27) and believers need to transform their mind by God's word (God will not do that).

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.​

Please show me where you have dealt anywhere with God's sovereignty in salvation or the other questions I have asked you specifically regarding the state of man after the Fall. Man is indeed responsible for what he does but you can not ignore the plentiful Scriptures that plainly declare that salvation is a work of grace, a word that I can not recall you using in this discussion.

No one is saved by faith in and of itself. The Scriptures declare that men are justified (made righteous) by grace (Rom 3:24) through faith (Rom 3:30) in the blood of Christ (Rom 5:9). Any mention of justification by faith is made in comparison and objection to a supposed justification by works.

For the third time, where was Pauls' free will when God threw him to the ground on the road to Damascus?

God commands many things in Scripture but the ability to do any of those things lies solely with the Lord who said the below.

Joh 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Instead, you falsely claim that people should look to themselves to be obey God to be saved and by doing so you are leading them further into their cursed state and away from grace.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT CONTINUE IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM."

You deny that Christ came to save anyone by implying that He only came to make salvation possible and by doing so you are limiting the efficiency of the atonement and denying the Gospel.

 

[maxamir]

Non-Calvinists also believe God is Sovereign - which includes keep His word and the promises which He gave us. God can certainly be Sovereign without determining everything that comes to pass. Although, I do not believe God changes a person's free-will, He will sometimes use persuasive means (as seen with Jonah and Paul). God used persuasive means with Balaam, but that did not help him (read Jude). Concerning prayer for the unsaved: we can pray that others who are influential will share the Gospel with them.

Paul did not view Romans 8:28 the same way you do as he was on guard to keep from being disqualified (1 Corinthians 9:27).

Calvinists: Having faith in being one of Calvinism’s elect is precarious since God never promised anyone “special election to salvation.” Instead, God promised eternal life to whoever believes in His Son. (John 3:16) So, Calvinists are in jeopardy if they are trusting in their feelings to be “elect” (based upon whatever “works” that make them feel elect) and also in jeopardy if they are taking it on faith that God promised them an unconditional election since God never promised anyone any such thing

In the Calvinist worldview where God determines whatsoever comes to pass, as the Calvinistic scholars affirm, it must be said that those who are self-deceived are such ultimately because God has so determined it. If you happen to be one of the individuals whom God has destined to remain in self-deception—falsely believing that you are saved when in actuality you are not—then you could not know this fact until after Judgment Day.

Non-Calvinists: Calvinists accuse non-Calvinists of boasting of their wisdom and intelligence, in having chosen Christ while others refused, but I don’t know of any non-Calvinist who promotes such a thing. Non-Calvinists, instead, often speak of being a sinner saved by grace. Obviously, that is not Irresistible Grace, but rather the grace of God provided at Calvary which provided the means of salvation for the whole world. The irony, of course, is that Calvinists refer to themselves as “elect,” not in terms of being a Christian, but “elect” as God prefers them over the non-elect.

Those who affirm sovereign election have nothing in which to boast in as they know their election is not based upon who they are or anything they have done but know that election is based solely upon the good pleasure of His will and to the praise of the glory of His grace (Eph 1:5-6). This is reaffirmed below.

Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Assurance of election unto salvation is not made upon what a person does but upon who Christ is and what He has done for His people in granting to them the gifts of repentance and faith that He justly commands from all people. This is granted to the elect by grace who out of gratitude alone seek to obey all of His commandments in love to Him who first loved them and gave His Holy Spirt to them so that they may know they are His.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

The apostle Paul trusted that He who had begun a good work in him will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ (Phil 1:6) and knew that salavtion was not dependent upon himself but upon Christ and His grace that was sufficient for him through all trials (2 Cor 12:9) and at the end of his life could say with confidence.

2Ti 4:18 And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!

 

[maxamir]

Given that faith comes by hearing the word of God, God is not barring anyone from obtaining faith as we can all choose to listen to God's word. The gift in Ephesians 2:8 is salvation not faith. As Romans 6:23 confirms that the gift is "eternal life". Going back to Ephesians 2:8 we see that gift of salvation is by grace through faith.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

​

God's love for all mankind is observed in Christ's propitiation (1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2;2) for all. 1 Timothy 4:10 says that God is the Savior of all mankind. How can God predestine anyone to Hell, as Calvin asserts, when Paul terms God as the Savior of all people.

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

Chapters 9-11 of Romans are about Paul's anguish over Israel.

Romans 9:10-13 speak of God choosing Jacob over Esau. In the OT, the descendants of Jacob are God's chosen people.

God’s mercy is clearly not “of him who wills,” since such willing and running, pursuing and seeking, are characterized at Romans 9:30-32 and Romans 10:1-4 as the “works” of the Law by unbelieving Israel, in contrast to the “faith” of the believing Gentiles. God’s mercy is instead achieved by “the one who does not work” but instead “believes in Him who justifies the ungodly” in which “his faith is credited as righteousness.” (Romans 4:5).

Calvinists take John 1:13 to mean that we do not—by our own mind, will and heart—self-determine to believe in Christ, but rather that God causes it as part of a regenerative, Irresistible Grace. However, the text never states that we are made Born Again in order to receive Christ.

There is no question that God is the source of salvation. Had he not chosen to save, then no one would be saved. But the question remains as to the means by which we receive salvation. That is, does God save us apart from our free choice or through it? Nothing in this text, or any other for that matter, declares that God chooses to save us against our will.

He does not save any man on the basis of any merit of his own (Titus 3:4-7), but rather by His grace and by the merits of Jesus Christ, His Son.

Does the Bible show that the apostles often ridiculed free-will, as Calvinists do? Did the apostles ever warn us about the peril of when faith can become a work, in the absence of Irresistible Grace? Did they ever tell us that humanity is born completely unable to receive God’s free gift of grace? Did they ever tell us that Jesus did not die for everyone? Did they ever tell us that humanity is composed of those who are born “elect” with a birthright for Heaven versus those who are born “non-elect” as predestined for Hell? Did they ever push a version of “sovereignty” necessitating God having to determine whatsoever comes to pass, though without making Him culpable for the sin that He ordains, due to first causes? Calvinists will insist that every one of these things is clearly in Scripture, even though it is completely assumed in the texts provided.

Without the faith that God commands, no one can be saved but you assume this faith comes from within man who is spiritually dead, under the curse in Adam, a slave to sin and Satan, hates God and does not seek God as the Scriptures also declare so plainly in the verse below.

Jer 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

You make out that man is only spiritually sick and not dead, so that he can therefore do something to contribute to his salvation when the Scriptures declare that salvation is of and belongs to the Lord (Jon 2:9, Psa 3:8) and by having a wrong view of the doctrine of God and man you end up perverting the Gospel of Christ and join those who count the sacrifice of Christ a common thing, insult the Spirt of grace and end up turning it into lewdness (Heb 10:29, Jud 1:4) by falsely claiming that God loves everyone, even those He justly casts into Hell and who Christ said were given parables for the purpose of justly keeping them in their blindness as prophesied so that they not be saved (Matt 13:10-15) and who rejoiced in this being done, but you somehow insist that God sincerely loves and desires the salvation of everyone without exception.

Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
Luk 10:22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

The Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is not just good news, but is the greatest news this world has and will ever know, therefore the greatest evil comes from those who whether intently or not, undermine and pervert the Gospel as you are doing.

The most dangerous wolves are those who look most like sheep.

Please consider all the Scripture in prayerful context below before replying.

 

[John Mullally]

Without the faith that God commands, no one can be saved but you assume this faith comes from within man who is spiritually dead, under the curse in Adam, a slave to sin and Satan, hates God and does not seek God as the Scriptures also declare so plainly in the verse below.

Jer 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

For Calvinists who wish to promote a doctrine of Man's Total Inability, there is good and bad news. The good news is that it really is a doctrine found in the Bible. The bad news is that it reflects the doctrine of unrepentant Israel, which doctrine, God repudiated in Jeremiah 18:11-13.

Jeremiah 18:11 “Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the Lord says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions.’ 12 But they will reply, ‘It’s no use. We will continue with our own plans; we will all follow the stubbornness of our evil hearts.’” 13 Therefore this is what the Lord says: “Inquire among the nations: Who has ever heard anything like this? A most horrible thing has been done by Virgin Israel.​

You make out that man is only spiritually sick and not dead, so that he can therefore do something to contribute to his salvation when the Scriptures declare that salvation is of and belongs to the Lord (Jon 2:9, Psa 3:8) and by having a wrong view of the doctrine of God and man you end up perverting the Gospel of Christ and join those who count the sacrifice of Christ a common thing, insult the Spirt of grace and end up turning it into lewdness (Heb 10:29, Jud 1:4) by falsely claiming that God loves everyone, even those He justly casts into Hell and who Christ said were given parables for the purpose of justly keeping them in their blindness as prophesied so that they not be saved (Matt 13:10-15) and who rejoiced in this being done, but you somehow insist that God sincerely loves and desires the salvation of everyone without exception.

I don't think in terms of spiritually sick and spiritually dead because those the terms are ambiguous. Even worse is arguing about what man being made in God's image means as that is not defined in the Bible, and yet worse how that changed with Adam's fall - its pure idiocy to speculate. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

I want to point out that the underlined portion above is incoherent and accusatory. I won't reply to that.

John 3:16 says that "God so loved the world" which means God loves all the people in the world. God commands us to love others because God loves us. It would be hypocrisy for God to command us to love our neighbor, when He does not. The "Esau have I hated" passage in Romans 9 is speaking of God's preference for Jacob, not that He actually hates Esau. In Luke 14:26, where Jesus says we must hate family, he is saying that His disciples must prefer God over ever everything else, even our own lives. Jesus is not telling us to actually hate family.

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.​

I believe God allowed some to be blinded during Jesus's ministry (Matthew 13:10-15) in order to had to get Satan to unwittingly crucify Jesus (1 Corinthians 2:8) - I am not certain on that. The religious leaders in that day had to oppose Jesus. After Calvary, it is clear that Satan, and not God, is the only one blinding people to the Gospel (2 Corinthians 2:3-4).

Calvinists paint a picture by using select scripture snippets. Even though none of these snippets directly assert any of the Calvinist core doctrines, if you sprinkle in some questionable assumptions and arrange the snippets as they do, it collectively paints the Calvinist doctrine. But there are plenty of scriptures that contradict Calvinism. 1 Timothy 2:4, by itself, proves Calvinism is wrong as God desires all men to be saved; whereas Calvin has God reprobating some before birth to give Himself glory.

I have addressed most of your arguments over these multiple posts and you have not reciprocated.

 

[John Mullally]

Please show me where you have dealt anywhere with God's sovereignty in salvation or the other questions I have asked you specifically regarding the state of man after the Fall. Man is indeed responsible for what he does but you can not ignore the plentiful Scriptures that plainly declare that salvation is a work of grace, a word that I can not recall you using in this discussion.

God is Sovereign and People are saved the way the Word of God says.

Although man has fallen and all have sinned, The wages of sin is death and thus they need a savior. God is the savior of all mankind (1 Timothy 4:10).

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

​

There is no scripture that says men are unable to respond to the Gospel message without God first changing their nature. In contrast, when speaking to OT Jews in Ezekiel 18:30-32, God promises to change the hearts of those who repent. So you have it backwards.

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!​

No one is saved by faith in and of itself. The Scriptures declare that men are justified (made righteous) by grace (Rom 3:24) through faith (Rom 3:30) in the blood of Christ (Rom 5:9). Any mention of justification by faith is made in comparison and objection to a supposed justification by works.

You error in your understanding of grace as Christ died for all men (1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6), and you error by turning faith into a work. Jesus tells us directly who is saved in Mark 16:15-16. He says if you believe the Gospel and are baptized you will be saved. If someone convinced of the Gospel message seeks eternal life by claiming the promise by believing the Gospel message and being baptized, Jesus says they are saved but you say they are not because they are trying to justify themselves by work. You contradict Jesus on this matter - end of story.

Mark 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned​

For the third time, where was Pauls' free will when God threw him to the ground on the road to Damascus?

God commands many things in Scripture but the ability to do any of those things lies solely with the Lord who said the below.

Joh 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Instead, you falsely claim that people should look to themselves to be obey God to be saved and by doing so you are leading them further into their cursed state and away from grace.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT CONTINUE IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM."

I don't know what your point is in all the above. Man's free will does not shape external circumstances - such as Paul's experience on the road to Damascus. Balaam had similar supernatural experiences to Paul and yet is reprobate (Jude 11-13). Concerning John 15:5, remember Jesus said He also could do nothing by Himself in John 5:19.

You deny that Christ came to save anyone by implying that He only came to make salvation possible and by doing so you are limiting the efficiency of the atonement and denying the Gospel.

Christ loves people and came to save those who freely believe (John 3:14-16). You have shown that you don't agree with Mark 16:15-16 - so you should reconsider who is denying the Gospel.

 

[John Mullally]

Assurance of election unto salvation is not made upon what a person does but upon who Christ is and what He has done for His people in granting to them the gifts of repentance and faith that He justly commands from all people. This is granted to the elect by grace who out of gratitude alone seek to obey all of His commandments in love to Him who first loved them and gave His Holy Spirt to them so that they may know they are His.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

From scripture, how does a Calvinist know he is God's child? Its a confidence game. As a non-Calvinist, I can take God at his word on the matter. You seem to think that God has reserved faith and repentance for his favorites you term the elect. Acts 10:34-35 says that God show no partiality.

The apostle Paul trusted that He who had begun a good work in him will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ (Phil 1:6) and knew that salavtion was not dependent upon himself but upon Christ and His grace that was sufficient for him through all trials (2 Cor 12:9) and at the end of his life could say with confidence.

2Ti 4:18 And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!

Paul's exhortations are intended to encourage. The encouragement is balanced with very real warnings such as 1 Corinthians 9:27 in order to avoid laxity.

Second Timothy was the last letter from Paul before he was martyred.

 

[Dan1988]

From scripture, how does a Calvinist know he is God's child? Its a confidence game. As a non-Calvinist, I can take God at his word on the matter. You seem to think that God has reserved faith and repentance for his favorites you term the elect. Acts 10:34-35 says that God show no partiality.

Paul's exhortations are intended to encourage. The encouragement is balanced with very real warnings such as 1 Corinthians 9:27 in order to avoid laxity.

Second Timothy was the last letter from Paul before he was martyred.

God's children know they are His elect, because they have experienced God's grace in their regeneration. God does the work of regeneration apart from our own input, we notice the change in our hearts as He replaces the love of sin with a desire to love and serve Him instead. That's not something that we caused by our own will or desire, as we know we're all born with a desire to serve our fleshy desires. My question is, what would cause a person who lives to fulfill his sinful desire, suddenly change his mind and serve God instead.

We are discussing the differing views regarding salvation here, it ultimately comes down to the question of how a person is saved. Is it a joint effort between the lost sinner and God, or is it all of God. These two opposing views have divided the Church from the beginning, the divide didn't begin with Calvin or Arminius so we can't put labels on professing believers.

The Bible interprets the Bible, so we can't just pluck out verses out of their intended context and arrange them in a way which seems to support our views. we need to deal with the whole counsel of God as it is written. If we apply our own interpretation when the text, doesn't support our predetermined view, then we will surely end up embracing a false doctrine.

Our position must line up with the whole counsel of God's Word. If we pluck out verses in isolation to build a doctrine upon them then our foundation is like that of the man who built his house upon the sand.

 

[maxamir]

For Calvinists who wish to promote a doctrine of Man's Total Inability, there is good and bad news. The good news is that it really is a doctrine found in the Bible. The bad news is that it reflects the doctrine of unrepentant Israel, which doctrine, God repudiated in Jeremiah 18:11-13.

Jeremiah 18:11 “Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the Lord says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions.’ 12 But they will reply, ‘It’s no use. We will continue with our own plans; we will all follow the stubbornness of our evil hearts.’” 13 Therefore this is what the Lord says: “Inquire among the nations: Who has ever heard anything like this? A most horrible thing has been done by Virgin Israel.​

I don't think in terms of spiritually sick and spiritually dead because those the terms are ambiguous. Even worse is arguing about what man being made in God's image means as that is not defined in the Bible, and yet worse how that changed with Adam's fall - its pure idiocy to speculate. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

I want to point out that the underlined portion above is incoherent and accusatory. I won't reply to that.

John 3:16 says that "God so loved the world" which means God loves all the people in the world. God commands us to love others because God loves us. It would be hypocrisy for God to command us to love our neighbor, when He does not. The "Esau have I hated" passage in Romans 9 is speaking of God's preference for Jacob, not that He actually hates Esau. In Luke 14:26, where Jesus says we must hate family, he is saying that His disciples must prefer God over ever everything else, even our own lives. Jesus is not telling us to actually hate family.

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.​

I believe God allowed some to be blinded during Jesus's ministry (Matthew 13:10-15) in order to had to get Satan to unwittingly crucify Jesus (1 Corinthians 2:8) - I am not certain on that. The religious leaders in that day had to oppose Jesus. After Calvary, it is clear that Satan, and not God, is the only one blinding people to the Gospel (2 Corinthians 2:3-4).

Calvinists paint a picture by using select scripture snippets. Even though none of these snippets directly assert any of the Calvinist core doctrines, if you sprinkle in some questionable assumptions and arrange the snippets as they do, it collectively paints the Calvinist doctrine. But there are plenty of scriptures that contradict Calvinism. 1 Timothy 2:4, by itself, proves Calvinism is wrong as God desires all men to be saved; whereas Calvin has God reprobating some before birth to give Himself glory.

I have addressed most of your arguments over these multiple posts and you have not reciprocated.

Again you fail to recognise the true nature of man after the Fall and this is the reason why you get the Gospel wrong. All are conceived in sin and are lost in their wickedness as soon as they leave the womb (Psa 51:5, 58:3) because man who was originally made in the image and likeness of God and was called very good (Gen 1:31) became as the Lord Himself states "only evil continually" (Gen 6:5), having lost the image of God which the Scriptures declare to be true righteousness, holiness and an intimate knowledge of God (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10). Therefore all are born in the cursed image of Adam and children of the Devil (John 8:44, 1 Jn 3:10) and desperately need to be born again by grace in Christ to become new creatures in Him, bearing His holy image, cloaked in His perfect righteousness and adopted into His family forever. This is the good news of the Gospel that those who are no humbled to understand their true condition do not yet understand.

The image of God is good and if there is anything of it in man after the Fall then man has something in which to boast, but because God does not change, neither does His image which was removed in man and only restored in Christ.

I know that you will more than likely not read my article below, but I leave it for those who love the truth to read.

The True Image of God

Once again you make the claim that men were only blinded before Christ's resurrection but I have proven to you through Scripture previously and again below that God continues to hand people over to lies after Christ's resurrection,

2Th 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
2Th 2:12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Paul clearly points out three times in Romans 1 that God in His righteous judgement hands people over to their sins, in order to store wrath for the day of wrath and be fattened for the day of His just slaughter (Rom 2:5, Jam 5:5, Jer 12:3) but according to your view, you believe that God sincerely loves everyone and therefore it would be illogical for Him to do such things.

The Devil who is the master counterfeiter, succeeded in deceiving Eve that she did not have the image and likeness of God and today is succeeding even more in making people think they are all still made in the image of God and therefore God loves them and would not throw them into Hell.

I do not accuse you, but everyone who perverts the holy Gospel that they are being deceived and are accursed (Gal 1:8-9). Judgement begins in the house of God and those who call themselves Christians are more accountable for what they say and do than those who are not and therefore I seek to lovingly warn of this error as Scripture instructs me to.