WHY THE LORD'S DAY IS NOT SATURDAY

[SeventhFisherofMen]

You are taking the words of Jesus out of context, he is not referring to Romans 14. Not once in Romans 14 talks about God’s holy day, it’s referring to days MAN esteems above another not what God esteems.

Jesus advocated that we keep the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten Commandments and condemns those who keep their self-laws over God’s commandments Matthew 15:3-9.

One person considers one day more sacred

if you can't see this as referencing sacred days such as The Sabbath, then you are choosing to ignore what Paul has said in the spirit and Power of Jesus

This is New Testament teaching.

Do you keep all 613 commandments? And if not how do you determine what commands to follow and not follow

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

Jesus in His own words condemns those who do not keep the commandment of God over their self-laws quoting right from the Ten Commandments Matthew 15:3-9. Jesus is the Mediator of God’s New Covenant where He writes His laws in the hearts and minds of His people Hebrews 8:10 instead of deleting them as you are suggesting.

When i follow what The Bible says do not and i repeat DO NOT tell me i'm following a self-law. That's a blatant lie and is not a loving way to talk to a believer. If you think you'll win someone over by being mean you are sadly mistaken and that is not Christ Like

 

[SabbathBlessings]

When i follow what The Bible says do not and i repeat DO NOT tell me i'm following a self-law. That's a blatant lie and is not a loving way to talk to a believer. If you think you'll win someone over by being mean you are sadly mistaken and that is not Christ Like

I was quoting scripture on what Jesus condemned - self-law over the commandments of God and He quoted directly from the Ten Commandments. Matthew 15:3-9.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

One person considers one day more sacred

if you can't see this as referencing sacred days such as The Sabbath, then you are choosing to ignore what Paul has said in the spirit and Power of Jesus

This is New Testament teaching.

Do you keep all 613 commandments? And if not how do you determine what commands to follow and not follow

It doesn’t mention the Sabbath once and it says what one person esteemed, not God. This is a discussion over the annual feast days nothing to do with the seventh day Sabbath as again, it is not mentioned once.

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

I was quoting scripture on what Jesus condemned - self-law over the commandments of God and He quoted directly from the Ten Commandments. Matthew 15:3-9.

Say what you want i'll let you have the last word. Wasn't a pleasant or loving conversation, but i know why i follow Sunday as The Lord's Day, and i'm done trying to communicate this with you. Do what you want

 

[prodromos]

Every translation has wrongly assumed that God's expression: "the first of the Sabbaths" refers to Sunday when referring to Saturday, another way of referring to the seventh day of the creation week that we call Saturday.

I'm sorry, but the expression "τη δε μια των σαββατων" is proven to mean the first day of the week in Luke 24, as the testimony of the disciples on the road to Emmaus attests. In verse 21 they state it is the third day from the day on which Christ was crucified, and verse 13 shows that they said this on the same day that in verse 1 is called the "first of the seven", that is the first day of the week.
Scripture proves your translation to be wrong so I suggest you drop that line of reasoning.

 

[guevaraj]

I'm sorry, but the expression "τη δε μια των σαββατων" is proven to mean the first day of the week in Luke 24, as the testimony of the disciples on the road to Emmaus attests. In verse 21 they state it is the third day from the day on which Christ was crucified, and verse 13 shows that they said this on the same day that in verse 1 is called the "first of the seven", that is the first day of the week.
Scripture proves your translation to be wrong so I suggest you drop that line of reasoning.

Brother, Jesus died on a preparation day that fell on Thursday, before a ceremonial Sabbath that Friday, followed by another weekly Sabbath for two Sabbath days in a row, fulfilling the prophesy of Jonah where Jesus would rest in the tomb for three days and three nights, making it "three days ago" on Sunday: Thursday = 3, Friday = 2, Saturday = 1, Sunday = 0.

After Saturday, very early morning, the women went to the tomb, taking the spices they had prepared. They found that the stone had been rolled away from the entrance. So they went in, but they didn’t find the body of the Lord Jesus. As they stood there puzzled, two men suddenly appeared to them, clothed in dazzling robes. The women were terrified and bowed with their faces to the ground. Then the men asked, “Why are you looking among the dead for someone who is alive? He isn’t here! He is risen from the dead! Remember what he told you back in Galilee, that the Son of Man must be betrayed into the hands of sinful men and be crucified, and that he would rise again on the third day.” Then they remembered that he had said this. So they rushed back from the tomb to tell his eleven disciples—and everyone else—what had happened. It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and several other women who told the apostles what had happened. But the story sounded like nonsense to the men, so they didn’t believe it. However, Peter jumped up and ran to the tomb to look. Stooping, he peered in and saw the empty linen wrappings; then he went home again, wondering what had happened. That same day two of Jesus’ followers were walking to the village of Emmaus, seven miles from Jerusalem. As they walked along they were talking about everything that had happened. As they talked and discussed these things, Jesus himself suddenly came and began walking with them. But God kept them from recognizing him. He asked them, “What are you discussing so intently as you walk along?” They stopped short, sadness written across their faces. Then one of them, Cleopas, replied, “You must be the only person in Jerusalem who hasn’t heard about all the things that have happened there the last few days.” “What things?” Jesus asked. “The things that happened to Jesus, the man from Nazareth,” they said. “He was a prophet who did powerful miracles, and he was a mighty teacher in the eyes of God and all the people. But our leading priests and other religious leaders handed him over to be condemned to death, and they crucified him. We had hoped he was the Messiah who had come to rescue Israel. This all happened three days ago. (Luke 24:1-21 NLT fixed)​

Jesus rose on a Saturday night, before Sunday began in the morning. God taught for 40 years, with Manna in the desert near Jerusalem, that the days of the week are from morning to morning and not from evening to evening, as the Sabbath falls in Jerusalem half a day before the seventh day of the week is from morning to morning.

Earlier that Saturday, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!” So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen. Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.) Then the disciples went back to where they were staying. Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot. They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?” “They have taken my Lord away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.” At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. “Dear woman, why are you crying?” Jesus asked her. “Who are you looking for?” She thought he was the gardener. “Sir,” she said, “if you have taken him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will go and get him.” “Mary!” Jesus said. She turned to him and cried out, “Rabboni!” (which is Hebrew for “Teacher”). “Don’t cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” Mary Magdalene found the disciples and told them, “I have seen the Lord!” Then she gave them his message. It being evening that same day, Saturday, the disciples were meeting behind locked doors because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. Suddenly, Jesus was standing there among them! “Peace be with you,” he said. As he spoke, he showed them the wounds in his hands and his side. They were filled with joy when they saw the Lord! Again he said, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you.” Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” (John 20:1-14 NLT fixed)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[trophy33]

For example...

Gen 49:1
49 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, "Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days."
KJV

That should give you a hint. You find The Gospel in just about every Old Testament Book. Even Psalms 22, which God gave through king David (who also was a prophet), was prophecy about Christ's crucifixion, given about a thousand years before it happened.

The Ezekiel 40 through 48 Chapters are still future to us even.

There are several Chapters in Isaiah that are still future to us, even for after Christ's future return. Many prophecies in the OT prophets are still future for us.

So not everything written in the Old Testament was to be a witness to Christ's 1st coming. Quite a bit of it is written about His 2nd coming and thereafter too.

Thus some men's thinking that the Old Testament means past history really show they haven't actually studied it.

If the Old Testament says that 2+2 = 4, its not something we mean when we say "we are not under the Old Testament".

Regarding the verse you posted, I see why you needed to use the KJV, only the KJV translates it as "in the last days". Anyway, the last days were in the 1st century:
"but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son" (Heb 1:2)
"Dear children, this is the last hour" (1J 2:18)

But its not the topic of this thread, so I will leave it, there.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

... (Luke 24:1-21 NLT fixed)...

That word "fixed", it scares me.

When people can start changing what the Bible says to what they want it to say and just type "fixed" that's where you've lost me.

 

[guevaraj]

That word "fixed", it scares me.

When people can start changing what the Bible says to what they want it to say and just type "fixed" that's where you've lost me.

Brother, Jesus, through Paul, has corrected the oldest human tradition in Judaism since Joshua in the book of Hebrews under the new covenant. Those with Joshua who "first heard" the "good news" of how to enter the Sabbath and were not allowed to enter by oath for 40 years in the desert near the Promised Land, did not enter the "day" of rest during those 40 years, which Joshua later entered at an earlier time than the Seventh day in the Promised Land, but Joshua wrongly assumed this earlier time was the seventh day. In the following passage, another "day" refers to a different day than the one thought for the Sabbath since Joshua: not the seventh day of the week everywhere, but the seventh day of the first week of creation remembered in that time zone that falls in the Promised Land before the seventh day of the week. Judaism is wrong to think, since Joshua, that a day of the week is from evening to evening, as the sabbath falls in the Promised Land, when a day of the week is from morning to morning, as shown with Manna in the desert not allowing them to enter the Sabbath by keeping the seventh day for 40 years in the desert near the Promised Land.

So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)​

Every translation has mistakenly assumed that God's "expression": "the first of the Sabbaths" refers to Sunday when referring to Saturday, another way of referring to the seventh day of the creation week we call Saturday. This expression by God for Saturday is necessary because the Sabbath falls between two days of the week in the Promised Land as shown in the passage below. The Sabbath in the Promised Land falls and takes halves between Friday and Saturday, so you only get half of a Friday and half of a Saturday in the Promised Land, with a Sabbath taking halves between those two days, giving us the following order: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Sabbath, and Saturday, the Sabbath being an eighth division in the seven-day week.

The "evening" ending the Sabbath in the Promised Land is part of Saturday, as shown in the above passage and the one below where God uses an "expression" that was not previously understood: "the first of the Sabbaths". This "expression" refers to the first Sabbath of creation week or another way of saying the seventh day of the week that we call Saturday. I will use Saturday for the seventh day as different from the Sabbath, which is separate from the seventh day in the Promised Land, to correct the translation of this "expression" of God. Below, "as it dawns beyond Saturday" refers to the end of the second half of Saturday, the night half from evening to morning, where Jesus rose on a Saturday night after the Sabbath in the Promised Land and before the morning begins Sunday, as the days of creation are corrected from human tradition since Joshua in Hebrews 3 and 4. This means, Jesus rose on a Saturday night, after the Sabbath ended in the "evening", as that same "evening" began what God called "night" until Sunday began in the "morning". We speak from the point of view of what begins in the "morning", when the Bible speaks from the point of view of what ends in the "morning".

long after the Sabbath (evening), as it dawns beyond Saturday (morning), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, to see the tomb. (Mathew 28:1, my own translation)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[trophy33]

It seems that people who try to impose the Jewish Sabbath are copy & pasting some materials and when the conversation begins to be specific about some of their verses, they either answer with even more prepared text and verses compilations or stop responding with "we must agree to disagree".

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

...Every translation has mistakenly assumed...

Be careful when you make the assumption that you know better than many translators who have dedicated their life to translating the Bible. In order to translate the word these people have to go to school for many years. Not only this but you're saying EVERY TRANSLATION has mistaken, EVERY?

Once again you lose me on that. Don't elevate yourself above every translation of the Bible, that's where you get things like Jehovah's Witnesses who translate and edit the Bible, we're not supposed to edit the Bible, to add or take away.

I hope you know this, i'm saying to prevent you from going on a tangent and going astray, not only yourself but you try and lead others in that direction. You then not only are responsible for your own misleading but also the misleading of those you have lead away from what the word says.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

It seems that people who try to impose the Jewish Sabbath are copy & pasting some materials and when the conversation begins to be specific about some of their verses, they either answer with even more prepared text and verses compilations or stop responding with "we must agree to disagree".

the thing is when Paul spoke to the Bereans they checked what he said with scripture, but Paul introduced new concepts different from The Old Testament. They were willing to learn and willing to hear the truth.

When people are set in what they believe and have prepared scripture to be stiff-necked, and when a new testament verse is given and they respond with "that doesn't mean what it says it means this instead" they are basically saying "I know you have a point but i'm not willing to hear it because I have these old testament verses."

The Bible is meant to be read as a whole. People need to see the flow of the Bible from old testament law to new testament living. I know you know this I just need to take a break from arguing with old testament law following members. I love them like I love my jewish brother and sisters, but i am careful to follow what I know is true. People who deviate what has been done in the church for years such as worship on Sunday, or assume they know better than the translations that have been around for years, they run the risk of thinking they know better than all the people before them.

I hope that makes sense

 

[prodromos]

Brother, Jesus died on a preparation day that fell on Thursday, before a ceremonial Sabbath that Friday, followed by another weekly Sabbath for two Sabbath days in a row, fulfilling the prophesy of Jonah where Jesus would rest in the tomb for three days and three nights, making it "three days ago" on Sunday: Thursday = 3, Friday = 2, Saturday = 1, Sunday = 0.

There is no day of preparation before the feast of unleavened bread because food could be prepared on the feast day, except in this case where the feast day fell on the weekly Sabbath. The day of preparation was always on a Friday.

You misinterpret the witness of the disciples on the road to Emmaus because you are not counting inclusively as the Jews did. The 3rd day includes the day of the events as the 1st day, not the day after as is the modern Western understanding.

The expression, "3 days and 3 nights", is an example of synecdoche, where the part implies the whole or the whole implies the part. In this case Jesus was in the tomb for part of Friday, all of Saturday, and rose to life early on Sunday. Any longer and His body would have begun to decay, which would have broken the prophecy of David quoted by Peter in Acts 2:27

 

[guevaraj]

Jesus was in the tomb for part of Friday, all of Saturday, and rose to life early on Sunday.

Brother, that does not compute for 3 nights. The prophecy of Jonah is not just 3 days, but more specifically: 3 days and 3 nights in the following passage.

For as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. (Matthew 12:40 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

One person considers one day more sacred

if you can't see this as referencing sacred days such as The Sabbath, then you are choosing to ignore what Paul has said in the spirit and Power of Jesus

This is New Testament teaching.

Do you keep all 613 commandments? And if not how do you determine what commands to follow and not follow

No one could ever keep ALL 613. No one. Also the verse in Romans 14 is regarding fasting or not fasting..."One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God."

 

[trophy33]

the thing is when Paul spoke to the Bereans they checked what he said with scripture, but Paul introduced new concepts different from The Old Testament. They were willing to learn and willing to hear the truth.

When people are set in what they believe and have prepared scripture to be stiff-necked, and when a new testament verse is given and they respond with "that doesn't mean what it says it means this instead" they are basically saying "I know you have a point but i'm not willing to hear it because I have these old testament verses."

The Bible is meant to be read as a whole. People need to see the flow of the Bible from old testament law to new testament living. I know you know this I just need to take a break from arguing with old testament law following members. I love them like I love my jewish brother and sisters, but i am careful to follow what I know is true. People who deviate what has been done in the church for years such as worship on Sunday, or assume they know better than the translations that have been around for years, they run the risk of thinking they know better than all the people before them.

I hope that makes sense

For example Jehovah witnesses have strict guidelines what to say to specific questions and materials they must strictly follow. If conversation goes another way or deeper into the verses they use, they are trained to change the topic or to end it.

It sometimes seems very similar with the Seventh Day Adventists - they provide dozen of verses in one post, you take the first one and react to it, they answer with another list of verses, you react to the first of it... and the conversation ends with "its your opinion against God's word".
Next time, they start again with the same lists of verses like nothing happened. Over and over.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

For example Jehovah witnesses have strict guidelines what to say to specific questions and materials they must strictly follow. If conversation goes another way or deeper into the verses they use, they are trained to change the topic or to end it.

It sometimes seems very similar with the Seventh Day Adventists - they provide dozen of verses in one post, you take the first one and react to it, they answer with another list of verses, you react to the first of it... and the conversation ends with "its your opinion against God's word".
Next time, they start again with the same lists of verses like nothing happened. Over and over.

true i never thought of it like that. it should just be a fluid conversation. if you take two people that know the Bible you should be able to have a conversation and refer to a verse and hopefully you both acknowledge what verse that is.

The problem is you have people that won't acknowledge a verse even if you quote it, OR if you refer to a verse and don't quote it word for word they'll say "please show me the verse you are referring to."

When Jesus said "My God my God why have you forsaken me?" That was a reference to a verse that all the disciples would have known.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

No one could ever keep ALL 613. No one. Also the verse in Romans 14 is regarding fasting or not fasting..."One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God."

No Romans 14 refers to days, eating but also Spiritual things as well. It is an example of all things spiritual, you are comparing the eating of only vegetables and then eating both meat and vegetables to abstaining from certain things. Paul later mentions this in terms of being free to do what we do without stumbling someone, i can bring up the specific verse but i am getting a bit tired of explaining how Romans 14 is not just talking about eating food because NOWHERE WAS IT WRONG TO EAT MEAT OR JUST HAVE TO EAT VEGETABLES, ITS A PARABLE AND REFERENCE TO MORE SPIRITUAL THINGS.

 

[trophy33]

true i never thought of it like that. it should just be a fluid conversation. if you take two people that know the Bible you should be able to have a conversation and refer to a verse and hopefully you both acknowledge what verse that is.

The problem is you have people that won't acknowledge a verse even if you quote it, OR if you refer to a verse and don't quote it word for word they'll say "please show me the verse you are referring to."

When Jesus said "My God my God why have you forsaken me?" That was a reference to a verse that all the disciples would have known.

Sure, conversation should not end when:
- some argument or question we are not prepared for is brought up
- somebody questions our interpretation of a verse
- somebody questions the context we give to a verse
- somebody questions if the verse is meant for us
- somebody questions the text itself (translation, manuscript family, being original etc)

If it regularly ends in such situations, its not a good sign. Its what happens with JW, Mormons, SDA and similar groups. People should be able to think for themselves, without needing instructions from their community to everything.