Is Calvinism a heresy?

[maxamir]

Just because God can do whatever He pleases, doesn't mean that He decrees everything that comes to pass. We know God from His word, and I do not see where God decrees everything that will ever happen being stated in His word.

God can keep His promise in Romans 8:28 without having to control all events that ever happen.

You see "the doctrine of sovereign election that drips from just about every page of Scripture" because of confirmation bias.

Calvinists think that Ephesians 1:4 (which you mentioned in Post 638) teaches that some people were born chosen from “before the foundation of the world” to become believers by effectual means (i.e. Irresistible Grace), or that some people were predestined to become believers. This forms the Calvinist doctrine of Unconditional Election. As a result, many Calvinists incorrectly recall Ephesians 1:4 as stating: “God chose us from before the foundation of the world.” The problem is that they’ve left off “in Him.” Why does that happen? The answer is because that is extraneous information for their Confirmation Bias. In a Confirmation Bias, a person will essentially see only what they want to see, and then just discard the rest. That’s exactly what happens to the Calvinist at Ephesians 1:4.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,​

Believers are marked as being In Christ when they believe. Notice the order hear, believe and then "sealed by the Holy Spirit". There is no pre-faith regeneration. No one is "In Christ" from the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,​

You are really starting to show your true colours now and prove that you do not yet know who God is or who man is.
Jesus said that unless a man is first born again they can not even see the Kingdom of God(John 3:3) let alone choose it but you believe that man somehow still retains some goodness in himself whereby he can choose God to be saved and therefore have something in which to boast before God when the Scriptures declare that God has chosen the foolishness of Gospel preaching to grant faith to His people so that no flesh should glory in His presence (1 Cor :29) but you shout out the power of your free will in defiance before a thrice holy God who I pray will cut you down this side of eternity to see your foolishness and grant you repentance that is impossible for man but possible only by grace from God.

Once again you utterly reject the copious amount of Scripture that points to God choosing people and somehow think it is unfair for God to do so without realising nobody deserves anything from God except His perfectly just, good and holy wrath. Thank God that He has chosen a number which no man can number from all nations, tongues, peoples and tribes according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His awesome grace and the method that He uses to bring His bride to Himself is the proclamation of the greatest goodness this world has and will ever know, found only in the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and His people are made willing in the day of His power (Psalm 11:3) and out of gratitude, willingly lay down their lives for Him who died and rose again for them and seek to share this love with others no matter the cost.

I know that I can not do anything to change your mind but the Lord has put His love in my heart for you to pray for you, and I pray that He would give you no peace until you are humbled by Him to see the plain truth of Holy Scripture to join all those who are appointed to eternal life to believe (Acts 13:48).

 

[Derf]

You are really starting to show your true colours now and prove that you do not yet know who God is or who man is.
Jesus said that unless a man is first born again they can not even see the Kingdom of God(John 3:3) let alone choose it but you believe that man somehow still retains some goodness in himself whereby he can choose God to be saved and therefore have something in which to boast before God when the Scriptures declare that God has chosen the foolishness of Gospel preaching to grant faith to His people so that no flesh should glory in His presence (1 Cor :29) but you shout out the power of your free will in defiance before a thrice holy God who I pray will cut you down this side of eternity to see your foolishness and grant you repentance that is impossible for man but possible only by grace from God.

Once again you utterly reject the copious amount of Scripture that points to God choosing people and somehow think it is unfair for God to do so without realising nobody deserves anything from God except His perfectly just, good and holy wrath. Thank God that He has chosen a number which no man can number from all nations, tongues, peoples and tribes according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His awesome grace and the method that He uses to bring His bride to Himself is the proclamation of the greatest goodness this world has and will ever know, found only in the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and His people are made willing in the day of His power (Psalm 11:3) and out of gratitude, willingly lay down their lives for Him who died and rose again for them and seek to share this love with others no matter the cost.

I know that I can not do anything to change your mind but the Lord has put His love in my heart for you to pray for you, and I pray that He would give you no peace until you are humbled by Him to see the plain truth of Holy Scripture to join all those who are appointed to eternal life to believe (Acts 13:48).

And that's how all conversations with Calvinists are predetermined to end--they admit they have no arguments and hand you over to God so they can preach their nothingness to someone else.

 

[maxamir]

I beg to differ. The way Jesus said they should know whether Caesar has some say over their money is to note the picture on the coin, and the inscription. The way we should know whether we owe anything to God is to note the picture on the man, and the inscription, where He has written on our hearts/consciences.

Not good enough.

Yes

Images are neutral, it's what we do with them that decides what is good or bad.

Yes, as I've stated.

Some of it. You made a common error when saying that Adam didn't die "on the day" he sinned, when God expressly said "in the day". That phrase, "in the day" is used earlier in the same chapter to mean something besides a 24 hour day, so it is certainly conceivable that when God said Adam would return to the dust, He really meant that Adam would die, just as He had said. And since you use the misquoted scripture to bolster your position, it instead weakens your position.

If you continued to read what I wrote, you would see that I said that Adam did indeed die spiritually on that day and started to die physically and we all end up having the cursed image of the man of dust who now returns to the dust. I am glad that you realised the logical error that you would have fallen into if you declared man as being not good and then saying that he still has that which was good but though your answer of not good enough is indeed true it does not weigh out the extent of what the Scriptures plainly teach about what man had become and therefore why he desperately needs a Saviour.

Most people like yourself who argue for the image of God still in man after the Fall do not yet understand the extent of the Fall. Remember that God made man in HIs image and likeness (Gen 1:26). What is God like and does man still have that likeness? God declares that man had become only evil continually (Gen 6:5), if man was still like God and had His image then that would convey that God is like man which is preposterous. Please tell me who do you think God is and who is man after the Fall, because if you get these things wrong then you can not help but get the Gospel wrong too.

 

[maxamir]

That's the one where the divines knew they had made God the author of sin, so they had to include the part about him NOT being the author of sin, right?

God is light and in Him is no darkness at all, so He did not put sin in Adam's heart but God who is outside of time, indeed decreed that evil should enter this world in time, at the choice of man through the temptation of the devil so He could demonstrate His holy hatred for evil to the praise of the glory of His eternal justice and proclaim His holy love in saving His people from that evil to the praise of the glory of His eternal grace.

Gen 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

 

[maxamir]

I reworded my post to add that "No one is in Christ from the foundation of the world".

I agree. We transition to being in Christ when we believe (Ephesians 1:13 and John 5:24). Wherever you see "we" and "us" in Ephesians, he is talking about the "faithful in Christ (NKJV)" per Ephesians 1:1. Christ was slain from the FOTW (Revelations 13:8), which enables those who come to be "In Christ" to be adopted as sons (Ephesians 1:4-5). God is not pulling strings to make some believe.

In Calvinism, everyone is born a “total hater of God,” and so when someone (according to Calvinism) becomes a believer, it’s because God did something against their will—transforming their will—in order to unilaterally change their mind for them so that they would be made to “freely” receive Him.

That's exactly what God does, He turns those who used to hate Him and love their sin into people that now love Him and hate their sin. This was prophesied in Ezekiel 36:26-27 and Jeremiah 31:31-33 which was fulfilled in the New Covenant in Christ Jesus.

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

Remember that those who trust in their supposed free will or faith for salvation are still under the curse.

Jer 17:5 Thus says the LORD: "Cursed is the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the LORD.

 

[maxamir]

And that's how all conversations with Calvinists are predetermined to end--they admit they have no arguments and hand you over to God so they can preach their nothingness to someone else.

I know that I can not convince anyone of anything and only trust that Lord will open the eyes of His people who love the truth.

I lovingly warn all that if you do not proclaim the whole counsel of God then the blood of men is upon you (Acts 20:26-27) and in doing so are freeing myself from your blood upon my hands (Eze 3:18).

All I can do is pray that God would grant you a Berean spirit.

 

[Derf]

God is light and in Him is no darkness at all, so He did not put sin in Adam's heart

Edit to add this: if Adam didn't exist when God decided (ordained) yet Adam would sin, then by whose power did God ordain it?

but God who is outside of time, indeed decreed that evil should enter this world in time, at the choice of man through the temptation of the devil so He could demonstrate His holy hatred for evil to the praise of the glory of His eternal justice and proclaim His holy love in saving His people from that evil to the praise of the glory of His eternal grace.

Gen 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

But He knew what they would choose, not by seeing into the future, but because He ordained what they would choose. If God ordains something without anyone else's inputs, then God is legitimately the author of it. The divines knew that, and that's why they had to insert an obvious contradiction into the confession. Contradictions create confusion, so now you're saying that God is the author of confusion, if the confession is correct.

 

[John Mullally]

You are really starting to show your true colours now and prove that you do not yet know who God is or who man is.
Jesus said that unless a man is first born again they can not even see the Kingdom of God(John 3:3) let alone choose it but you believe that man somehow still retains some goodness in himself whereby he can choose God to be saved and therefore have something in which to boast before God when the Scriptures declare that God has chosen the foolishness of Gospel preaching to grant faith to His people so that no flesh should glory in His presence (1 Cor :29) but you shout out the power of your free will in defiance before a thrice holy God who I pray will cut you down this side of eternity to see your foolishness and grant you repentance that is impossible for man but possible only by grace from God.

In Acts 2, Peter preaches the first Gospel message call under the New Covenant. In it he promises salvation (forgiveness of sins and receipt of the gift of the Holy Spirit) to those who repent and are baptized. There is no need to complicate matters by naval gazing as to whether or not you feel saved. Just believe the Gospel, take God at his word, act on it, and then serve the Lord.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them​

​

Calvinists have a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of works and faith. “Works” speak of our own merit, while faith in someone else to save us, speaks of the merit of the one in whom we are placing our trust. So, when we place our faith in Christ, we are not adding to our own merits. We are not building up our own value. Faith in Christ, instead, points to someone else’s merits, who saves us solely by His choice to show grace toward anyone who puts their trust in Him.

Once again you utterly reject the copious amount of Scripture that points to God choosing people and somehow think it is unfair for God to do so without realising nobody deserves anything from God except His perfectly just, good and holy wrath. Thank God that He has chosen a number which no man can number from all nations, tongues, peoples and tribes according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His awesome grace and the method that He uses to bring His bride to Himself is the proclamation of the greatest goodness this world has and will ever know, found only in the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and His people are made willing in the day of His power (Psalm 11:3) and out of gratitude, willingly lay down their lives for Him who died and rose again for them and seek to share this love with others no matter the cost.

I examined your Westminster .... link and I looked up the scriptures that its various points reference. I don't find those scriptural arguments convincing. If Calvinism is true, then the Gospel is not the power of God to those who believe (Romans 1:16) - it would have to be whether or not God chose you as elect from the FOTW. And if that is the case, I would expect it to see it as being plainly stated in scripture.

To accept Calvinism, you have to believe some are elect before the FOTW and assuming they make it to adulthood, at some point in their life, they are graced with a pre-faith regeneration, which then later allows them to believe. That convoluted mess is a lot to swallow especially given how shallow their arguments are. As a non-Calvinist Evangelical, I know I am saved because I took God at His word and claimed the promise in Acts 2:38-39.

I know that I can not do anything to change your mind but the Lord has put His love in my heart for you to pray for you, and I pray that He would give you no peace until you are humbled by Him to see the plain truth of Holy Scripture to join all those who are appointed to eternal life to believe (Acts 13:48).

If you believe Calvinism, you would recognize that prayer is useless. Calvinism is a type of fatalism - everything was decided from the FOTW. As Calvinists like to say it is all up to God and they invented the term Monergism to go along with that.

 

[maxamir]

But He knew what they would choose, not by seeing into the future, but because He ordained what they would choose. If God ordains something without anyone else's inputs, then God is legitimately the author of it. The divines knew that, and that's why they had to insert an obvious contradiction into the confession. Contradictions create confusion, so now you're saying that God is the author of confusion, if the confession is correct.

God indeed ordained all things for His greater glory, even the introduction of evil by the secondary means of the choice of man and the temptation of the devil, for how would anyone know what justice or mercy or grace even meant without God who is only good allowing this to happen?

Stop trying to understand things only within the concept of being inside this box of time.

 

[maxamir]

In Acts 2, Peter preaches the first Gospel message call under the New Covenant. In it he promises salvation (forgiveness of sins and receipt of the gift of the Holy Spirit) to those who repent and are baptized. There is no need to complicate matters by naval gazing as to whether or not you feel saved. Just believe the Gospel, take God at his word, act on it, and then serve the Lord.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them​

​

Calvinists have a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of works and faith. “Works” speak of our own merit, while faith in someone else to save us, speaks of the merit of the one in whom we are placing our trust. So, when we place our faith in Christ, we are not adding to our own merits. We are not building up our own value. Faith in Christ, instead, points to someone else’s merits, who saves us solely by His choice to show grace toward anyone who puts their trust in Him.

I examined your Westminster .... link and I looked up the scriptures that its various points reference. I don't find those scriptural arguments convincing. If Calvinism is true, then the Gospel is not the power of God to those who believe (Romans 1:16) - it would have to be whether or not God chose you as elect from the FOTW. And if that is the case, I would expect it to see it as being plainly stated in scripture.

To accept Calvinism, you have to believe some are elect before the FOTW and assuming they make it to adulthood, at some point in their life, they are graced with a pre-faith regeneration, which then later allows them to believe. That convoluted mess is a lot to swallow especially given how shallow their arguments are. As a non-Calvinist Evangelical, I know I am saved because I took God at His word and claimed the promise in Acts 2:38-39.

If you believe Calvinism, you would recognize that prayer is useless. Calvinism is a type of fatalism - everything was decided from the FOTW.

Prayer is strengthened in the doctrines of grace because the saint knows that God ordained all things, even the prayer that is made and that the Lord knows what his saints are going to pray for even before they do so because He ordained it and gives them confidence that their prayers will indeed be answered as for the Arminian, what purpose is prayer when God is not allowed to go against the supposed free will of men?

The doctrine of God's sovereign election is meant to humble people and stop them looking inside themselves for an impossible righteousness and instead look outside of themselves to Him alone who can make all things possible.

Three times in Acts 2, the apostle Peter declares the supreme sovereignty of God in salvation.

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death

Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

Act 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

Those who believe by the gift of grace (Eph 2:8, Acts 18:27) are indeed saved because faith is the fruit of salvation and not a condition unto it, otherwise it would be a work in which men could boast, as it seems you are doing.

A denial of the doctrine of predestination is a denial of the doctrine of the Trinity in which the Father chose some for salvation, sent the Son to secure salvation for them and the Holy Spirit seals the salvation that was purchased to them.

I hope you do not end up like Jonah before you finally realise that salvation is of the Lord (Jon 2:9)

In the meantime, here's something someone I know recently posted for you to ponder.

The Bible specifically says man cannot, or is unable to come to Christ.
Here are the verses which specifically say, using the Greek word for ability, that man cannot or is unable:
"Man has libertarian free will able to come to Christ on his own"
Here is why that is false
In The Original GOD-Breathed Greek NT,
The exact Literal phrase for NOT ABLE is OU DUNATAI, and specifically occurs in most of these Scriptures as well as many others :
Mark 10:26-27/Literal :
But they were Exceedingly Astonished,
Saying to themselves,
And who is ABLE to be Saved?
And having Looked at them,
Jesus says,
With Humans It is IMPOSSIBLE,
But Not with God,
For All Things are POSSIBLE with God.
John 3:3/Literal :
NO one is ABLE to See The Kingdom of God,
Unless he Has been Begotten from Above.
John 3:27/Literal :
NO one is ABLE to Receive Anything,
Unless It Has been Given to him from Heaven.
John 6:44/Literal :
NO one is ABLE to Come to Me,
Unless he Has been Drawn by The Father.
John 6:65/Literal :
NO one is ABLE to Come to Me,
Unless It Has been Given to him from The Father.
John 8:43/Literal :
Why do you Not Understand My Speech?
Because you are NOT ABLE to Hear My Word.
John 12:39/Literal :
Because of This,
They were NOT ABLE to Believe.
John 14:17/Literal :
The Spirit of The Truth,
Whom the World is NOT ABLE to Receive,
Because It does Not See Him,
Nor Know Him,
But you Know Him,
Because He Abides with you,
And will be in you.
Romans 8:7-8/Literal :
Because the Mind of the Flesh is Hostile to God,
For It is Not Subject to The Law of God,
For It is NOT even ABLE to be,
And those Being in the Flesh are NOT ABLE to Please God.
1 Corinthians 2:14/Literal :
But the Soulical Human does Not Accept The Things of The Spirit of God,
For They are Foolishness to him,
And he is NOT ABLE to Know Them,
Because They are Spiritually Discerned.
1 Corinthians 12:3/Literal :
Therefore I Make Known to you,
Because No one speaking in The Spirit of God says Anathema Jesus,
And NO one is ABLE to say Lord Jesus,
Except in The Holy Spirit.
IF we were ABLE,
To Believe (John 12:39),
Or Be Saved (Mark 10:26-27),
Or Hear His Word (John 8:43),
Or Receive Anything (John 3:27),
Or Receive His Spirit (John 14:17),
Or See The Kingdom of God (John 3:3),
Or Come to The Lord (cf. John 6:37,6:44, 6:65),
IN & OF ourselves (cf. John 1:13, 6:63-65, Ephesians 2:8),
APART from HIS Saving GRACE (cf. Ephesians 2:1-5, 2 Timothy 1:9),
THEN there would be NO NEED for HIS Saving GRACE.
Ultimately,
It is BECAUSE OF HIM that we are in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:30, Ephesians 1:4-11),
and NOT OF ourselves (Ephesians 2:8, cf. John 1:13, 6:63-65, Romans 9:16),
for OF HIS OWN WILL,
HE Brought us Forth through The Word of Truth (James 1:18).

 

[John Mullally]

That's exactly what God does, He turns those who used to hate Him and love their sin into people that now love Him and hate their sin. This was prophesied in Ezekiel 36:26-27 and Jeremiah 31:31-33 which was fulfilled in the New Covenant in Christ Jesus.

In Ezekiel 18:30-32, God promises to change the hearts of those who repent. Thus people can repent before God changes their heart.

Ezekiel 18:30-32: "Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”​

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

• “Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”​

• “…get a new heart and a new spirit.”​

Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

• “Repent and…”​

• “…live!”​

​

Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.

 

[John Mullally]

Prayer is strengthened in the doctrines of grace because the saint knows that God ordained all things, even the prayer that is made and that the Lord knows what his saints are going to pray for even before they do so because He ordained it and gives them confidence that their prayers will indeed be answered as for the Arminian, what purpose is prayer when God is not allowed to go against the supposed free will of men?

The doctrine of God's sovereign election is meant to humble people and stop them looking inside themselves for an impossible righteousness and instead look outside of themselves to Him alone who can make all things possible.

Three times in Acts 2, the apostle Peter declares the supreme sovereignty of God in salvation.

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death

Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

Act 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

Those who believe by the gift of grace (Eph 2:8, Acts 18:27) are indeed saved because faith is the fruit of salvation and not a condition unto it, otherwise it would be a work in which men could boast, as it seems you are doing.

A denial of the doctrine of predestination is a denial of the doctrine of the Trinity in which the Father chose some for salvation, sent the Son to secure salvation for them and the Holy Spirit seals the salvation that was purchased to them.

I hope you do not end up like Jonah before you finally realise that salvation is of the Lord (Jon 2:9)

In the meantime, here's something someone I know recently posted for you to ponder.

The Bible specifically says man cannot, or is unable to come to Christ.
Here are the verses which specifically say, using the Greek word for ability, that man cannot or is unable:
"Man has libertarian free will able to come to Christ on his own"
Here is why that is false
In The Original GOD-Breathed Greek NT,
The exact Literal phrase for NOT ABLE is OU DUNATAI, and specifically occurs in most of these Scriptures as well as many others :
Mark 10:26-27/Literal :
But they were Exceedingly Astonished,
Saying to themselves,
And who is ABLE to be Saved?
And having Looked at them,
Jesus says,
With Humans It is IMPOSSIBLE,
But Not with God,
For All Things are POSSIBLE with God.
John 3:3/Literal :
NO one is ABLE to See The Kingdom of God,
Unless he Has been Begotten from Above.
John 3:27/Literal :
NO one is ABLE to Receive Anything,
Unless It Has been Given to him from Heaven.
John 6:44/Literal :
NO one is ABLE to Come to Me,
Unless he Has been Drawn by The Father.
John 6:65/Literal :
NO one is ABLE to Come to Me,
Unless It Has been Given to him from The Father.
John 8:43/Literal :
Why do you Not Understand My Speech?
Because you are NOT ABLE to Hear My Word.
John 12:39/Literal :
Because of This,
They were NOT ABLE to Believe.
John 14:17/Literal :
The Spirit of The Truth,
Whom the World is NOT ABLE to Receive,
Because It does Not See Him,
Nor Know Him,
But you Know Him,
Because He Abides with you,
And will be in you.
Romans 8:7-8/Literal :
Because the Mind of the Flesh is Hostile to God,
For It is Not Subject to The Law of God,
For It is NOT even ABLE to be,
And those Being in the Flesh are NOT ABLE to Please God.
1 Corinthians 2:14/Literal :
But the Soulical Human does Not Accept The Things of The Spirit of God,
For They are Foolishness to him,
And he is NOT ABLE to Know Them,
Because They are Spiritually Discerned.
1 Corinthians 12:3/Literal :
Therefore I Make Known to you,
Because No one speaking in The Spirit of God says Anathema Jesus,
And NO one is ABLE to say Lord Jesus,
Except in The Holy Spirit.
IF we were ABLE,
To Believe (John 12:39),
Or Be Saved (Mark 10:26-27),
Or Hear His Word (John 8:43),
Or Receive Anything (John 3:27),
Or Receive His Spirit (John 14:17),
Or See The Kingdom of God (John 3:3),
Or Come to The Lord (cf. John 6:37,6:44, 6:65),
IN & OF ourselves (cf. John 1:13, 6:63-65, Ephesians 2:8),
APART from HIS Saving GRACE (cf. Ephesians 2:1-5, 2 Timothy 1:9),
THEN there would be NO NEED for HIS Saving GRACE.
Ultimately,
It is BECAUSE OF HIM that we are in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:30, Ephesians 1:4-11),
and NOT OF ourselves (Ephesians 2:8, cf. John 1:13, 6:63-65, Romans 9:16),
for OF HIS OWN WILL,
HE Brought us Forth through The Word of Truth (James 1:18).

You assume that God only works to draw some to Himself - the elect. But 1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires all people to be saved.

Post Calvary, Jesus commands His disciples to preach the Gospel everywhere, Christ draws all men to Himself (John 12:32), and the Holy Spirit convicts the world of Sin, Righteousness, and Judgment (John 16:8). But many resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51, John 3:18).

 

[Derf]

If you continued to read what I wrote, you would see that I said that Adam did indeed die spiritually on that day and started to die physically and we all end up having the cursed image of the man of dust who now returns to the dust.

So you now used God's own description of death; why do you introduce a different type of death, when it isn't required by the text?

I am glad that you realised the logical error that you would have fallen into if you declared man as being not good and then saying that he still has that which was good but though your answer of not good enough is indeed true it does not weigh out the extent of what the Scriptures plainly teach about what man had become and therefore why he desperately needs a Saviour.

He desperately needs a savior because nothing he can do can save him. That is, nothing he can do can keep him from the finality of death (which is why the definition of death is important).

Most people like yourself who argue for the image of God still in man after the Fall do not yet understand the extent of the Fall.

You mean death? Or are you saying there's a greater extent than what God said there was?

Remember that God made man in HIs image and likeness (Gen 1:26). What is God like and does man still have that likeness?

To some extent, as stated before. Enough that it was given as the reason why we aren't allied to murder anyone.

God declares that man had become only evil continually (Gen 6:5), if man was still like God and had His image then that would convey that God is like man which is preposterous.

Assuming your understanding of God's image is the correct one, which is called "begging the question" fallacy.

Please tell me who do you think God is and who is man after the Fall, because if you get these things wrong then you can not help but get the Gospel wrong too.

God is God. I am a human being, created by God. Because Adam sinned, I am subject to death, even if I haven't sinned after the similitude of Adam.

I agree that if you get these things wrong then you are likely to misunderstand the full import of the gospel, but fortunately, God made His gospel intellectually accessible to all those humans He created--because He loves them--because He created them in His image.

 

[Derf]

God indeed ordained all things for His greater glory, even the introduction of evil by the secondary means of the choice of man and the temptation of the devil,

Editted to add: "choice of man"? "temptation of the devil"? Who are they? Remember that God did this ordaining before they existed. If He knew how they would act before He created them and before they did anything, then it's not "secondary means"--God ordained that man would sin and the devil would tempt, and they had no choice but to obey God's will. And if it's God's will that Adam both eat of the fruit and not eat of the fruit, it's not a sin to do it, it's just confusion on God's part.

for how would anyone know what justice or mercy or grace even meant without God who is only good allowing this to happen?

How would Adam know what death was before he experienced it? Maybe God made him able to understand the words He was using when He created him. What you are suggesting is that God created Adam incapable of understanding what God was telling him, at least until Calvin came along and explained it.

Stop trying to understand things only within the concept of being inside this box of time.

Maybe you should stop trying to understand things only within the concept of being a Calvinist.

 

[maxamir]

In Ezekiel 18:30-32, God promises to change the hearts of those who repent. Thus people can repent before God changes their heart.

Ezekiel 18:30-32: "Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”​

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

• “Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”​

• “…get a new heart and a new spirit.”​

Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

• “Repent and…”​

• “…live!”​

​

Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.

that is a typical reply from someone who does not know the true state of man after the Fall. Christ said it was impossible for anyone to do anything to save themselves (Mark 10:26-27) but you seem to know better. How can a man repent when he loves his sin and is a slave to it and Satan? How can a believe on Christ when all he can do is believe in himself as you are doing?

If you bother to read your Bible, you would know that everyone is conceived in sin because of the Fall wherein man lost the image and likeness of God which is true righteousness, holiness and an intimate knowledge of God (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10) which apparently you do not believe. Neither it seems do you believe in the doctrine of original sin and that sin is not just what man does but what man is, which is spiritually dead and cursed but somehow you believe that evil dead people can choose what is good. If this is true, then there was no reason for Christ to come to save anybody as according to yourself all God had to do was tell people to try to be good!

Jesus said that you must be born again because you are born in the image of the devil! (John 3:3,7, 6:44, 1 Jn 3:10)

All of the commandments in Scripture are there to show man his impossibility in keeping them so that he would not look inside of himself for an impossible righteousness but outside of himself to Him alone who can make all things possible by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone, as revealed in the Scriptures alone and to the glory of God alone.

As previously mentioned, God's will of command works towards His will of decree. God says that you need repentance and faith to get to heaven and these are gifts that are granted by grace to the humble whom God has chosen. If you die never repenting and believing, then you will know for all eternity that God never chose you.

 

[maxamir]

You assume that God only works to draw some to Himself - the elect. But 1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires all people to be saved.

Post Calvary, Jesus commands His disciples to preach the Gospel everywhere, Christ draws all men to Himself (John 12:32), and the Holy Spirit convicts the world of Sin, Righteousness, and Judgment (John 16:8). But many resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51, John 3:18).

I'm amazed that you have not yet used 2 Pet 3:9 which most like yourself rip out of context. You need to ask yourself if God also sincerely desires to save those He justly casts into Hell? Does God do all whatever He pleases to do (Psalm 115:3, 135:6) or is He a slave to the will of man?

I challenge yourself and all those with a Berean spirit to read the article below.

Does God Really Desire to Save the Reprobate?

The Gospel is indeed commanded to be preached to every person in the world so that the knowledge of the Lord would fill the earth as the waters cover the seas and woe unto those who do not proclaim the whole counsel of God in His Gospel (1 Cor 9:16, Acts 20:26-27).

The Gospel is the greatest goodness this world has and will ever know, and all those who hear it are more accountable than those who haven't. This is why Christ said that it would be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah than the cities around Him who got to hear the Gospel and see the power of it and never repented. He even said, talking about Judas, that it would have been good if he'd never been born because the Scriptures declare that the Gospel both saves as well as condemns men (2 Cor 2:14-16).

I preach the Gospel to everyone I can because God has commanded me to love all, and the greatest love I can show anyone besides laying down my life for them is to share with them the indescribable gift of God in His holy Gospel which proclaims that salvation belongs to the Lord and not men!

 

[maxamir]

So you now used God's own description of death; why do you introduce a different type of death, when it isn't required by the text?

He desperately needs a savior because nothing he can do can save him. That is, nothing he can do can keep him from the finality of death (which is why the definition of death is important).

You mean death? Or are you saying there's a greater extent than what God said there was?

To some extent, as stated before. Enough that it was given as the reason why we aren't allied to murder anyone.

Assuming your understanding of God's image is the correct one, which is called "begging the question" fallacy.

God is God. I am a human being, created by God. Because Adam sinned, I am subject to death, even if I haven't sinned after the similitude of Adam.

I agree that if you get these things wrong then you are likely to misunderstand the full import of the gospel, but fortunately, God made His gospel intellectually accessible to all those humans He created--because He loves them--because He created them in His image.

Does God love those He justly casts into Hell which is in turn are cast into the Lake of Fire which is the Second Death?

The wages of sin is death, not just physical but spiritual which is eternal, or are you an annihilist?

Can you please give me the definition of what the image of God is? Because if it is as many like yourself presume, simply, man's intellectual abilities, then the devil himself has a much greater image of God than us all!

 

[maxamir]

Editted to add: "choice of man"? "temptation of the devil"? Who are they? Remember that God did this ordaining before they existed. If He knew how they would act before He created them and before they did anything, then it's not "secondary means"--God ordained that man would sin and the devil would tempt, and they had no choice but to obey God's will. And if it's God's will that Adam both eat of the fruit and not eat of the fruit, it's not a sin to do it, it's just confusion on God's part.

How would Adam know what death was before he experienced it? Maybe God made him able to understand the words He was using when He created him. What you are suggesting is that God created Adam incapable of understanding what God was telling him, at least until Calvin came along and explained it.

Maybe you should stop trying to understand things only within the concept of being a Calvinist.

From the perspective of man within this box of time, it is indeed secondary means unless somehow you think that man has no responsibilities and God unjustly killed every man. woman, child an animal in the Flood for no reason, other than He was confused?

God does not need to look into the future to plan what He does because He is eternal and decreed all things together at once, even the angels He made on a conditional footing, that would fall and end up tempting man into sin.

It seems that you, like the wicked, think that God is altogether like yourself (Psalm 50:21).

 

[Derf]

Does God love those He justly casts into Hell which is in turn are cast into the Lake of Fire which is the Second Death?

Have you any verses that distinguish between the two castings?

The wages of sin is death, not just physical but spiritual which is eternal, or are you an annihilist?

Have you any verses which use the term "spiritual death"? Did you realize the second death is executed upon physical, resurrected bodies?

Can you please give me the definition of what the image of God is?

Nope.

Because if it is as many like yourself presume, simply, man's intellectual abilities, then the devil himself has a much greater image of God than us all!

Who are you to say the angels don't have something of the image of God as well as we. We know we were made in His image, but we don't know they weren't, do we? After all, they are called "sons of God", and sons bear the image of their father.

View attachment 329826

And? What do you make of that?

 

[Derf]

From the perspective of man within this box of time, it is indeed secondary means unless somehow you think that man has no responsibilities and God unjustly killed every man. woman, child an animal in the Flood for no reason, other than He was confused?

That's what I'm accusing you of saying with your doctrine, yes. You describe God as an author of confusion, who determined to flood the world because of the wickedness He, Himself, instilled in every man's heart.

God does not need to look into the future to plan what He does because He is eternal and decreed all things together at once

At "once"? How could He do that, since "at once" means "at one time", but time wadnt created yet, remember?

, even the angels He made on a conditional footing, that would fall and end up tempting man into sin.

God isn't a God of conditions, since He determines who will sin and what sin they will commit, before they exist--they have no say in it, therefore no responsibility. That's YOUR doctrine, and the logical conclusions that come from it.

It seems that you, like the wicked, think that God is altogether like yourself (Psalm 50:21).

But you would also say that God ordained me to be like the wicked, right?