Is Calvinism a heresy?

[John Mullally]

God indeed willed the salvation of His elect before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4), people from throughout the whole world and not just the nation of Israel which is why John 3:16 is a rebuke to Nicodemus and all the jews who forgot that the promise to Abraham was that all nations would be blessed through him and his seed in Christ but that does not mean every person in every nation but His remnant which He makes willing in the day of His power (Psalm 11:3) not theirs.

I remind you that your link to Augustine (in post 633 and it's link) proves in his own words that he rejected 1 Timothy 2:4 as he twisted it meaning (I argue in post 635 for more info). And Calvin frequently quoted Augustine This pervasive error is evidenced by the fact that present day Calvinists like yourself do not believe what 1 Timothy 2:4 plainly states, as they view God only desiring to save a mysterious preselected group they term elect - which leads to endless naval gazing among the "faithful" - even with some Calvinists on this forum saying they desire to be saved, but do not believe God elected them (thus making Calvinism a confidence religion). Avoid the Calvinist man-made dogma and re-read 1 Timothy 2:4 without prejudice to get an accurate account of God's love for all mankind! And then repent in accordance with the NT and claim God's promises!

Ephesians 1:1 tells us Paul was writing to the "faithful in Christ Jesus" - they are the the class of people who are predestined for adoption as sonship (Ephesians 1:4-5).

No one is "In Christ" until they believe in Him. So take comfort if you believe in Him and strive to please Him. God has no favorites other than favoring those who believe.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

God desires that prayer be made for all men, including kings and those in authority (1 Tim 4:1-2) because this is the means that God uses to save the people He desires to save throughout the whole world (v4) because many are called in the Gospel but few are chosen, and these are not the reprobate whom God hates (Psalm 5:5, 11:5) and who are made for the day of doom (Pro 16:4) and will glorify the goodness of His perfect, eternal, righteous and holy justice forever (Rom 9:22) or do you not believe at all in the doctrine of predestination (Rom 8:29-30)?

God is interested in saving all people per 1 Timothy 2:4 - not some people as you also contradict that verse. The "all people" in 1 Timothy 2:4 is the same "all people" in 1 Timothy 2:1 that you say we are pray for.

Christ's atonement is available to all, though is only applied whenever people place their faith in Him, just like His illustration at John 3:14-15 of Numbers 21:6-9 shows. Before a person looked upon the serpent on a standard, was anyone healed? Before a person believes in Jesus, is anyone saved? God Himself established the condition, but Calvinists seek to revise God’s condition to imply that the atonement itself completes a transaction for a select set of people, in which the atonement itself does something to the individual which produces faith.

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”​

 

[maxamir]

I remind you that your link to Augustine (in post 633 and it's link) proves in his own words that he rejected 1 Timothy 2:4 as he twisted it meaning (I argue in post 635 for more info). And Calvin frequently quoted Augustine This pervasive error is evidenced by the fact that present day Calvinists like yourself do not believe what 1 Timothy 2:4 plainly states, as they view God only desiring to save a mysterious preselected group they term elect - which leads to endless naval gazing among the "faithful" - even with some Calvinists on this forum saying they desire to be saved, but do not believe God elected them (thus making Calvinism a confidence religion). Avoid the Calvinist man-made dogma and re-read 1 Timothy 2:4 without prejudice to get an accurate account of God's love for all mankind! And then repent in accordance with the NT and claim God's promises!

Ephesians 1:1 tells us Paul was writing to the "faithful in Christ Jesus" - they are the the class of people who are predestined for adoption as sonship (Ephesians 1:4-5).

No one is "In Christ" until they believe in Him. So take comfort if you believe in Him and strive to please Him. God has no favorites other than favoring those who believe.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

God is interested in saving all people per 1 Timothy 2:4 - not some people as you also contradict that verse. The "all people" in 1 Timothy 2:4 is the same "all people" in 1 Timothy 2:1 that you say we are pray for.

Christ's atonement is available to all, though is only applied whenever people place their faith in Him, just like His illustration at John 3:14-15 of Numbers 21:6-9 shows. Before a person looked upon the serpent on a standard, was anyone healed? Before a person believes in Jesus, is anyone saved? God Himself established the condition, but Calvinists seek to revise God’s condition to imply that the atonement itself completes a transaction for a select set of people, in which the atonement itself does something to the individual which produces faith.

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”​

According to your theology, Christ came to secure salvation for no one as their salvation is solely dependent upon whether they believe or not. Whereas Scripture confirms that faith is a gift of God given by grace and believing on Christ is a fruit of this grace and not a condition unto it.

Before proceeding, can I please ask you whether you confirm that the Holy Scriptures are inspired, inerrant and infallible. There is no use of any further discussion, if you do not agree with this.

According to Scripture, man who was originally made in the image and likeness of God, no longer bears the likeness of God after the Fall and everyone afterwards is born in the cursed image of our first parents, slaves to sin and Satan, his children, bearing his evil image, haters of God and lovers of evil but you somehow think that man can choose God when Scripture says otherwise?

The Lord Jesus Christ is truly God and truly Man and unless you understand who God and man truly are, you will never truly understand the Gospel.

Sadly, many like yourself, who consistently argue for their supposed free-will and have faith in their faith in Christ rather than faith in the person and work of Christ are not yet humbled or regenerated and remain under the curse.

Jer 17:5 Thus says the LORD: "Cursed is the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the LORD.

I sincerely hope and pray that you and those like yourself who read this are brought by the Holy Spirit to know what the saints in glory professed, that "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" (Rev 7:10) and not to men!

 

[John Mullally]

According to your theology, Christ came to secure salvation for no one as their salvation is solely dependent upon whether they believe or not. Whereas Scripture confirms that faith is a gift of God given by grace and believing on Christ is a fruit of this grace and not a condition unto it.

If you look into it, Calvin (whom you follow) teaches that God predestines every man's action in advance just like Islam teaches . Islam and Calvinism: An Uncomfortable Comparison – Grace Evangelical Society

Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing the word of God and we all choose what we listen to. Jesus draws us all to himself per John 12:32 (for many of us multiple times), and hopefully we choose to eventually listen. Thank God for His mercy.

Before proceeding, can I please ask you whether you confirm that the Holy Scriptures are inspired, inerrant and infallible. There is no use of any further discussion, if you do not agree with this.

Lets start with 1 Timothy 2:4 that I referenced before you interjected on this thread and which says that God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (NKJV). You do not believe that and neither does Augustine whom you quote. Augustine's quote on the subject (that you provided) blatantly twisted the meaning of 1 Timothy 2:4 and Calvin (whom you follow) commonly referenced Augustine.

According to Scripture, man who was originally made in the image and likeness of God, no longer bears the likeness of God after the Fall and everyone afterwards is born in the cursed image of our first parents, slaves to sin and Satan, his children, bearing his evil image, haters of God and lovers of evil but you somehow think that man can choose God when Scripture says otherwise?

Given I believe that my position (typical non-Calvinist Evangelical) has the clear backing of scripture, I am not interested in going after tangents (like whether or not man continues to bear the likeness of God or whether or not randomness truly exists). If you want to continue you need to accept 1 Timothy 2:4 as translated into English by multiple transcribers and after that we can argue scripture,

 

[maxamir]

If you look into it, Calvin (whom you follow) teaches that God predestines every man's action in advance just like Islam teaches . Islam and Calvinism: An Uncomfortable Comparison – Grace Evangelical Society

Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing the word of God and we all choose what we listen to. Jesus draws us all to himself per John 12:32 (for many of us multiple times), and hopefully we choose to eventually listen. Thank God for His mercy.

Lets start with 1 Timothy 2:4 that I referenced before you interjected on this thread and which says that God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (NKJV). You do not believe that and neither does Augustine whom you quote. Augustine's quote on the subject (that you provided) blatantly twisted the meaning of 1 Timothy 2:4 and Calvin (whom you follow) commonly referenced Augustine. So spare me the lecture on accepting scripture - as you have not.

Given I believe that my position (typical non-Calvinist Evangelical) has the clear backing of scripture, I am not interested in going after tangents (like whether or not man continues to bear the likeness of God or whether or not randomness truly exists). If you want to continue you need to accept 1 Timothy 2:4 as translated into English by multiple transcribers and after that we can argue scripture.

The Holy Scriptures which you have yet to affirm, plainly teach that God is eternal and outside of time which He created, therefore He decrees all things that come to pass and see's the past, present and future altogether at once but you seem to follow a different God that is akin to Deism with destiny decreed to the will of the creature and do not yet understand that God is supremely sovereign in all things including salvation and therefore is worthy to be feared.

You seem to have trouble reading otherwise you would know that Augustine affirmed my position and plainly said "‘He wills all men to be saved,’ is so said that all the predestinated may be understood by it, because every kind of men is among them." As for Calvin the following was said which you obviously did not read, “Thus appeared in the final form of [John Calvin’s] Institutes [i.e., the 1559 edition], in a programmatic way, the important themes of Calvin’s exegesis of this verse [i.e., I Tim. 2:4]: God does not will every human being to be saved, but ‘all men’ describes a universality of kinds” (Rainbow, The Will of God and the Cross, p. 138). Did you bother reading any other the many other quotes at that link? I guess not.

Like many cults you focus on one verse of Scripture and build a foundation upon this and the testimony of men, completely disregarding the whole testimony of Scripture in context and refuse to submit to the humbling doctrine of predestination which you ignore because it doesn't fit into your man-centred theology which robs God of the glory of His sovereign particular grace to His elect alone.

As long as you refuse to bow to the will of a sovereign God and acknowledge the total depravity of man, the truth will continue to be hidden from you, and if you die not being humbled, still trusting in your faith rather than Christ, then you will know for all eternity that He never loved you.

 

[Dan1988]

Jesus, who was Human, Yet Deity, was the 2nd Adam.
The 1st Adam, was "one with God' and had the same Free Will as Jesus, the 2nd Adam.

The 1st Adam DECIDED to rebel......He used His FREE WILL to do so.
Lucifer did this also.
You are currently using your FREE WILL to reply to me, Dan1968.
Will you CHOOSE to do it again?

The 2nd Adam, Christ The Lord, CHOSE to go to the Cross,.. He used the same FREE WILL that 1st Adam Had, that YOU have, and that I have, to make the CHOICE to go to the Cross and Die for your sin and mine.

Jesus is Jehovah God, He came into the world as God and Man at the same time. God doesn't have free will at all, so your wrong about that. The Bible is crystal clear that God has no free will, if you require Biblical proof I can list a bunch of verses to prove it to you.

Both the first Adam and the second, never had free will. Can a leopard change it's spots, with his free will? can a sinner change his desire to sin? can God sin? can God break His promises?. Nobody has free will, we can only make choices which correspond to our nature. God never changes anything about Himself, He preordained all things so we can only make choices which correspond to our nature.

Jesus didn't have a choice to avoid the cross, He determined to do that before He created Adam and Lucifer. Jesus had no choice in the matter, as He never changes His mind about anything He determined to do in eternity past.

 

[FireDragon76]

The Holy Scriptures which you have yet to affirm, plainly teach that God is eternal and outside of time which He created, therefore He decrees all things that come to pass and see's the past, present and future altogether at once but you seem to follow a different God that is akin to Deism with destiny decreed to the will of the creature and do not yet understand that God is supremely sovereign in all things including salvation and therefore is worthy to be feared.

You seem to have trouble reading otherwise you would know that Augustine affirmed my position and plainly said "‘He wills all men to be saved,’ is so said that all the predestinated may be understood by it, because every kind of men is among them." As for Calvin the following was said which you obviously did not read, “Thus appeared in the final form of [John Calvin’s] Institutes [i.e., the 1559 edition], in a programmatic way, the important themes of Calvin’s exegesis of this verse [i.e., I Tim. 2:4]: God does not will every human being to be saved, but ‘all men’ describes a universality of kinds” (Rainbow, The Will of God and the Cross, p. 138). Did you bother reading any other the many other quotes at that link? I guess not.

Like many cults you focus on one verse of Scripture and build a foundation upon this and the testimony of men, completely disregarding the whole testimony of Scripture in context and refuse to submit to the humbling doctrine of predestination which you ignore because it doesn't fit into your man-centred theology which robs God of the glory of His sovereign particular grace to His elect alone.

As long as you refuse to bow to the will of a sovereign God and acknowledge the total depravity of man, the truth will continue to be hidden from you, and if you die not being humbled, still trusting in your faith rather than Christ, then you will know for all eternity that He never loved you.

Where in the BIble does it teach God is completely outside of time? I don't think that notion should be accepted so uncritically.

BTW, the rest of your ramblings sound positively hideous. How can you make such clear pronouncements about the eternal fate of somebody for a mere theological disagreement about such a small detail? You say that you pick and choose from the Bible like a cult, but this seems to me a bit of projection.

 

[John Mullally]

The Holy Scriptures which you have yet to affirm, plainly teach that God is eternal and outside of time which He created, therefore He decrees all things that come to pass and see's the past, present and future altogether at once but you seem to follow a different God that is akin to Deism with destiny decreed to the will of the creature and do not yet understand that God is supremely sovereign in all things including salvation and therefore is worthy to be feared.

Show me where God decrees all thing come to pass as he designed them from scripture. That is disproved as Jeremiah shows that men committed sin that never entered God's mind. How could something come to pass that never entered God's mind if God decrees everything?

Jeremiah 32:35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.​

You seem to have trouble reading otherwise you would know that Augustine affirmed my position and plainly said "‘He wills all men to be saved,’ is so said that all the predestinated may be understood by it, because every kind of men is among them."

Augustine talks out of both sides of his mouth. He specifically says that 1 Timothy 2:4 confirms the underlined portion below instead of the portion in red. Logically, the opposite is true. Analyze it for yourself.

Accordingly, when we hear and read in Scripture that He ‘will have all men to be saved’ [I Tim. 2:4], although we know well that all men are not saved, we are not on that account to restrict the omnipotence of God, but are rather to understand the Scripture, ‘Who will have all men to be saved,’ as meaning that no man is saved unless God wills his salvation: not that there is no man whose salvation He does not will, but that no man is saved apart from His will; and that, therefore, we should pray Him to will our salvation, because if He will it, it must necessarily be accomplished.​

 

[Dan1988]

I can't agree with this approach to Christianity. I'm not sure what the point is in believing something like that, except to perhaps absolve oneself of moral responsibility for their lives and the treatment of others. If everything is so predetermined in such a religious system, then it's merely a question of unreflective adherence to ones chosen religious ideology, without having to consider the consequences of ones actions (I don't think its a coincidence too many "hyper-calvinist" pastors tend to be the most cold, and even abusive, in character).

I especially can't abide by the notion that Jesus isn't merciful to his enemies. I agree more with the 18th century French theologian, François Fenelon, "God is merciful even to those who must endure his reprobation".

We're not at liberty to interpret the Bible, in a way that's acceptable to us and li9nes up with our moral standards. We must allow the Bible to interpret itself, otherwise the "Church" ends up being filled with thousands of conflicting private views and denominations.

I appreciate God's Word is hard to receive, as it goes against our carnal nature. It seems unfair and cruel, but this is because are sinful hearts find it offensive. This is why I always pray that God would continue to renew my heart every single day, we tend to gravitate towards our old nature so it's a continuous struggle against the flesh.

We see popular Churches avoid preaching on sin, judgement, hell, God's wrath and other unpopular Bible doctrines

 

[FireDragon76]

I remind you that your link to Augustine (in post 633 and it's link) proves in his own words that he rejected 1 Timothy 2:4 as he twisted it meaning (I argue in post 635 for more info). And Calvin frequently quoted Augustine This pervasive error is evidenced by the fact that present day Calvinists like yourself do not believe what 1 Timothy 2:4 plainly states, as they view God only desiring to save a mysterious preselected group they term elect - which leads to endless naval gazing among the "faithful" - even with some Calvinists on this forum saying they desire to be saved, but do not believe God elected them (thus making Calvinism a confidence religion). Avoid the Calvinist man-made dogma and re-read 1 Timothy 2:4 without prejudice to get an accurate account of God's love for all mankind! And then repent in accordance with the NT and claim God's promises!

In actual, historical practice, Reformed do believe if people wish to be saved, and pursue the ordinary means of grace, then they can have assurance because God is covenantally bound to honor that through certain visible and tangible means (in that respect, a Lutheran emphasis looking to Christ is smuggled in, underneath alot of talk about God's sovereignty and the necessity of regeneration). But it's not a major theme, and inter-Protestant polemics obscure this. In American and British Puritanism, in particular, the extreme inwardness tended to dominate, leading to "navel gazing" as you put it, lest they trust the outward means of grace as "too Catholic".

The real problem seems to be American and British Baptist and Puritan ecclessiology and sacramentology, which denies authority of the visible church to declare the forgiveness of sins and denies the ordinary means of grace. However, German, Swiss, and Dutch Reformed have always been more "churchly" in emphasizing the ordinary means of grace.

 

[John Mullally]

In actual, historical practice, Reformed do believe if people wish to be saved, and pursue the ordinary means of grace, then they can have assurance because God is covenantally bound to honor that through certain visible and tangible means (in that respect, a Lutheran emphasis looking to Christ is smuggled in, underneath alot of talk about God's sovereignty and the necessity of regeneration). But it's not a major theme, and inter-Protestant polemics obscure this. In American and British Puritanism, in particular, the extreme inwardness tended to dominate, leading to "navel gazing" as you put it, lest they trust the outward means of grace as "too Catholic".

The real problem seems to be American and British Baptist and Puritan ecclessiology and sacramentology, which denies authority of the visible church to declare the forgiveness of sins and denies the ordinary means of grace. However, German, Swiss, and Dutch Reformed have always been more "churchly" in emphasizing the ordinary means of grace.

Few of the knowledgeable "Reformed" believe 1 Timothy 2:4 as translated.

 

[FireDragon76]

The "Reformed" don't believe 1 Timothy 2:4 and should tend to their own housekeeping and pull the planks out of their eyes before correcting everyone else - as evidenced by the numerous rabid so-called Internet Discernment ministries that attack other ministries but don't identify themselves directly and do not give air time to refute- but when you put pieces together show to run under the Calvinist banner - its like a cancer - hey Calvinist leaders curb your dogs! God sees all and you are accountable.

You can blame the Presbyterian theologian Charles Hodge and Princeton for solidifying this attitude in American Evangelicalism in the 19th century (and giving birth to what would later become the Fundamentalist/Modernist controversy). Hodge's theology crystalized the identity of American Presbyterians (at the time a major force in American religious life, BTW), into the stereotypical "wet-baby Baptists".

When John Nevin and Philip Schaff tried to preach and write about the catholicity of the Church from the German Reformed tradition, and on sanctification as participation in Christ, Charles Hodge said Nevin had gone mad. But it was Hodge whose religion was the novelty, historically-speaking, because Nevin was largely drawing on the early Christian church's writings about what it meant to be a Christian. Nevin and Schaff were also very much in touch with European Evangelicalism, whereas Hodge refuted and rejected much of European theology.

 

[maxamir]

Where in the BIble does it teach God is completely outside of time? I don't think that notion should be accepted so uncritically.

BTW, the rest of your ramblings sound positively hideous. How can you make such clear pronouncements about the eternal fate of somebody for a mere theological disagreement about such a small detail? You say that you pick and choose from the Bible like a cult, but this seems to me a bit of projection.

The very first verse of the Bible states that God created time, space and matter. He therefore knows all things because He decreed all things that come to pass, including giving grace to His people before time began (2 Tim 1:9). Until you are humbled like Nebuchadnezzar, this truth will not be revealed to you.

Dan 4:34 And at the end of the time I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my understanding returned to me; and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever: For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, And His kingdom is from generation to generation.
Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"

It is my duty to lovingly correct those who are in error by the Scriptures, for they are given for this purpose (2 Tim 3:16).

Gal_4:16 Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

 

[maxamir]

Show me where God decrees all thing come to pass as he designed them from scripture. That is disproved as Jeremiah shows that men committed sin that never entered God's mind. How could something come to pass that never entered God's mind if God decrees everything?

Jeremiah 32:35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.​

Augustine talks out of both sides of his mouth. He specifically says that 1 Timothy 2:4 confirms the underlined portion below instead of the portion in red. Logically, the opposite is true. Analyze it for yourself.

Accordingly, when we hear and read in Scripture that He ‘will have all men to be saved’ [I Tim. 2:4], although we know well that all men are not saved, we are not on that account to restrict the omnipotence of God, but are rather to understand the Scripture, ‘Who will have all men to be saved,’ as meaning that no man is saved unless God wills his salvation: not that there is no man whose salvation He does not will, but that no man is saved apart from His will; and that, therefore, we should pray Him to will our salvation, because if He will it, it must necessarily be accomplished.​

You obviously do not know what anthropomorphism means. God sometimes uses human attributes to demonstrate a truth on our level but God is Spirit and does not have hands, or eyes etc. like us. Does it seem too hard for you to fathom that God made everything out of nothing but somehow is not be able to know all things and do whatsoever He pleases?

The doctrine of sovereign election that drips from just about every page of Scripture and that you choose to continue to ignore is itself proof that God decreed all things that come to pass, otherwise the promise below would not be valid.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Please read your Bible and answer the questions I have given you.

 

[maxamir]

You obviously do not know what anthropomorphism means. God sometimes uses human attributes to demonstrate a truth on our level but God is Spirit and does not have hands, or eyes etc. like us. Does it seem too hard for you to fathom that God made everything out of nothing but somehow is not be able to know all things and do whatsoever He pleases?

The doctrine of sovereign election that drips from just about every page of Scripture and that you choose to continue to ignore is itself proof that God decreed all things that come to pass, otherwise the promise below would not be valid.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Please read your Bible and answer the questions I have given you.

plenty of Scriptures for you below...

Westminster Confession of 1646: Of God's Eternal Decree

 

[John Mullally]

Show me where God decrees all thing come to pass as he designed them from scripture. That is disproved as Jeremiah shows that men committed sin that never entered God's mind. How could something come to pass that never entered God's mind if God decrees everything?

Jeremiah 32:35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.​

You obviously do not know what anthropomorphism means. God sometimes uses human attributes to demonstrate a truth on our level but God is Spirit and does not have hands, or eyes etc. like us. Does it seem too hard for you to fathom that God made everything out of nothing but somehow is not be able to know all things and do whatsoever He pleases?

Just because God can do whatever He pleases, doesn't mean that He decrees everything that comes to pass. We know God from His word, and I do not see where God decrees everything that will ever happen being stated in His word.

The doctrine of sovereign election that drips from just about every page of Scripture and that you choose to continue to ignore is itself proof that God decreed all things that come to pass, otherwise the promise below would not be valid.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

God can keep His promise in Romans 8:28 without having to control all events that ever happen.

You see "the doctrine of sovereign election that drips from just about every page of Scripture" because of confirmation bias.

Calvinists think that Ephesians 1:4 (which you mentioned in Post 638) teaches that some people were born chosen from “before the foundation of the world” to become believers by effectual means (i.e. Irresistible Grace), or that some people were predestined to become believers. This forms the Calvinist doctrine of Unconditional Election. As a result, many Calvinists incorrectly recall Ephesians 1:4 as stating: “God chose us from before the foundation of the world.” The problem is that they’ve left off “in Him.” Why does that happen? The answer is because that is extraneous information for their Confirmation Bias. In a Confirmation Bias, a person will essentially see only what they want to see, and then just discard the rest. That’s exactly what happens to the Calvinist at Ephesians 1:4.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,​

Believers are marked as being In Christ when they believe. Notice the order hear, believe and then "sealed by the Holy Spirit". There is no pre-faith regeneration. No one is "In Christ" from the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,​

 

[Derf]

this verse is about paying taxes to whom it is due and giving to God the things He commands and not about anyone being in God's image.

I beg to differ. The way Jesus said they should know whether Caesar has some say over their money is to note the picture on the coin, and the inscription. The way we should know whether we owe anything to God is to note the picture on the man, and the inscription, where He has written on our hearts/consciences.

Please answer these simple questions.

Is man good......Yes or No

Not good enough.

Is God good.....Yes or No

Yes

Is the image of God good ( Eph 4:24, Col 3:10)....Yes or No

Images are neutral, it's what we do with them that decides what is good or bad.

Is man in the image of God....Yes or No

Yes, as I've stated.

Did you read the article?

Some of it. You made a common error when saying that Adam didn't die "on the day" he sinned, when God expressly said "in the day". That phrase, "in the day" is used earlier in the same chapter to mean something besides a 24 hour day, so it is certainly conceivable that when God said Adam would return to the dust, He really meant that Adam would die, just as He had said. And since you use the misquoted scripture to bolster your position, it instead weakens your position.

 

[Derf]

He preordained all things

When (at what time) did God preordain that Hezekiah would die? Was it the first or second one? (read about it Isaiah 38).

 

[Derf]

plenty of Scriptures for you below...

Westminster Confession of 1646: Of God's Eternal Decree

That's the one where the divines knew they had made God the author of sin, so they had to include the part about him NOT being the author of sin, right?

 

[jameslouise]

Unconditional Election. As a result, many Calvinists incorrectly recall Ephesians 1:4 as stating: “God chose us from before the foundation of the world.” The problem is that they’ve left off “in Him.” Why does that happen? The answer is because that is extraneous information for their Confirmation Bias. In a Confirmation Bias, a person will essentially see only what they want to see, and then just discard the rest. That’s exactly what happens to the Calvinist at Ephesians 1:4.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Believers are marked as being In Christ when they believe. Notice the order hear, believe and then "sealed by the Holy Spirit". There is no pre-faith regeneration

I almost completely agree with all that you have said, and very logically you have presented it too- I have learnt from you. But, if the 'in Him' is in Christ and before 'the foundation of the world'(FOTW) is before the Genesis 6 days. It seems to be you are in a way confirming Calvinism i.e. God is saying who will be saved before the FOTW who will be in Christ to choose them. We cannot be in Christ before the FOTW so it makes the word chose become 'closer' to choosing who is saved and who is not?
I have a beautiful and elegant answer to this btw also an explanation as to why we are blessed in Heavenly places when we are apparently still alive on Earth.

 

[John Mullally]

I almost completely agree with all that you have said, and very logically you have presented it too- I have learnt from you. But, if the 'in Him' is in Christ and before 'the foundation of the world'(FOTW) is before the Genesis 6 days. It seems to be you are in a way confirming Calvinism i.e. God is saying who will be saved before the FOTW who will be in Christ to choose them. We cannot be in Christ before the FOTW so it makes the word chose become 'closer' to choosing who is saved and who is not?
I have a beautiful and elegant answer to this btw also an explanation as to why we are blessed in Heavenly places when we are apparently still alive on Earth.

I reworded my post to add that "No one is in Christ from the foundation of the world".

I agree. We transition to being in Christ when we believe (Ephesians 1:13 and John 5:24). Wherever you see "we" and "us" in Ephesians, he is talking about the "faithful in Christ (NKJV)" per Ephesians 1:1. Christ was slain from the FOTW (Revelations 13:8), which enables those who come to be "In Christ" to be adopted as sons (Ephesians 1:4-5). God is not pulling strings to make some believe.

In Calvinism, everyone is born a “total hater of God,” and so when someone (according to Calvinism) becomes a believer, it’s because God did something against their will—transforming their will—in order to unilaterally change their mind for them so that they would be made to “freely” receive Him.