Galatians 4 two opposing covenants.

[Clare73]

That is true, as Paul said, "For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. (OT Scriptures Paul is teaching to both Jew and Gentile of the Body of Christ)

Just because a man doesn't believe or respect the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, or His Words, doesn't make the faith of those who do, of no effect.

You obsession to promote the deception that God was a Jew, or that the Holy Scriptures are "Jewish Scriptures" may be a great marketing strategy for one or more of this world's religious businesses, but it does not reflect any truth from the Scriptures.

Paul teaches the Body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile over a decade after the Christ of the Bible ascended, that the Holy scriptures were Inspired by God, not Jews. and they are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God (Jew and Gentile) may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

You obviously don't believe these scriptures. But like Paul said, your unbelief, doesn't make the Faith of those who do believe, of none effect.



I am simply pointing out the stark difference between what you and "many" who come in Christ's Name are preaching to others, and what the Scriptures actually say. It's not my fault they are two completely different paths. But to be truthful, both Paul and Jesus did specifically warn about "Christians" deceiving men. I define "Deceive" as promoting lies about the God/Christ of the Bible. WE have uncovered several just on this discussion with you. My hope is that you can consider what the scriptures actually say. But Jesus said most will likely not be persuaded.

"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I agree that the Pharisees were zealous for the religion their fathers created, with their manmade religious traditions, Shrines of worship, religious businesses and philosophies and laws that they worked so hard to convert others to. There is no wealth and power in religion, unless there are men to fill the seats of the manmade shrine of worship. It is the same today.

What I have found to be one huge deception, is the assertion that the Pharisees religious traditions and commandments were founded on the OT Scriptures.

As the Words of the Christ, and His Father clearly show, this is simply not true.



That is your religious philosophy, not Paul's or the Christ of the Bible.

Gal. 1: 13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

I won't post again what the Scriptures teach were the traditions of his stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart fathers were. It's in your own Bible should you become interested in Biblical Truth, you can read it for yourself. The OT scriptures and Stephen, before they murdered him, tells men the truth about "the Jews religion", for those who believe.



It didn't alter the practice of the law for Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise Men. Men have always despised God and rebelled against His instruction in righteousness. (See the Bible) But not those who believed in God. Even Eve was convinced to reject, dishonor and disrespect God by a voice who also quoted "some" of God's Word.

The deception you are promoting, that has hardened your heart, is that God promoted "Jewish Scriptures". There are volumes of Scriptures which expose this as false, here is just one.

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein (within the Gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

I can't stop you from promoting the falsehood that the Holy Scriptures are a "Jewish religion". But I can point out what the Scriptures actually say. This is how Jesus exposed the mainstream religion of His Time, and Paul exposed them in the same way.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.



No he didn't. He affirmed the Pharisees walked in a manmade Jewish religion, and that they didn't believe the Oracles of God, AKA, OT Scriptutres.

Rom. 3: 1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Look, I know how this goes, and have been here with you before. I just want to share the perspective of someone who has escaped from this world's religions, having placed my Faith in the Christ of the Bible, and His instruction, not the religions or religious philosophies of this world God placed me in.

Nevertheless, these Biblical discussions are good for men to have, and who knows who is listening, as God's Word doesn't return void.

Previously addressed.

 

[Studyman]

You have established only that the Pharisees altered the law of Moses.

My argument with you, and by extension, this world's religions, is based on the stark difference between what you/they preach and what the Scriptures actually teach. Preaching that the Bible says the Pharisees and corrupt Shepherds of the OT only "altered" God's Laws is a perfect example of the deception Jesus warned about. And preaching that Jesus also "altered" God's Laws takes the cake. Jesus saw all of these false teachings coming and warned His People about it.

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

This describes the countless religious sects and franchises which make up one religion that exist in this world God placed us in. Jesus could have warned about Islam, or Atheists, or Buddhists etc. But HE didn't. He specifically warned about "Christianity", the only religion on the planet where men call Jesus Lord, Lord, and teach that HE is truly the Prophesied Christ.

A man should trust Jesus in all of His Teaching, not just His Words which can be used to prop up one or more popular religious doctrine.

You have not established the Pharisees altered the rest of the Jewish religion; i.e., all the OT Scriptures.

The word "Altered" is your imagined term, not mine, nor was this word used by Jesus or inspired by God in any of the Scriptural reference or descriptions regarding the corrupt priests, scribes or Pharisees. Here is a few of the Words Jesus and the Bible used, that you refuse to share with others. "murderers", "liars", "thieves", "who despised God's Judgments", Polluted God's Sabbaths, walked not in God's Statutes, who were "ignorant" of God's Righteousness, who didn't believe Moses, who were the devils children, who set aside the commandment of God, transgressed the commandments of God by their traditions, who murdered the Prophets God sent to them, who didn't believe the Oracles of God, who turned God's Temple into a religious business, who Led God's People astray, and a lot more.

And yet you are trying to convince me and as many as will listen to you, that the Pharisees religion was founded on the teaching of the OT Scriptures, and that they may have only "altered" a few.

Zacharias, Simeon and Anna's Faith in Christ was founded on OT Scriptures. Not the Pharisees.

Of course, you will be offended by these truths, but the Jesus of the Bible also addressed this.

Matt. 15:12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? 13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Your viewpoint is somewhat dated and "inaccurate."
The mainstreams of Christianity with which I am familiar do not despise the God of the OT.

I'm sure the Pharisees, the mainstream preachers of Christ's Time, didn't believe they despised God either, as they killed His Prophets, and spit on His Son and told lies about Him. Paul explains why, but you don't believe he was speaking of any Jews..

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Your assertion is without demonstration and, therefore, without merit.
You confuse your viewpoint with the Biblical viewpoint.

Or, you could actually address one of the many scriptures I posted for review and examination and show the most common decency of answering questions that are asked of you.

Which was stated specifically of the Gentiles, who had no special revelation from God, but did have natural revelation in creation (Ps 19:1-4), for which they were accountable, held guilty and their idolatry punished by God's abandoning/turning them over to their sin in judgment.

Psalms 19: 4 Their line (whose line) is gone out through all the earth, and their words (Whose words) to the end of the world. In them (who is "them"?) hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,(Whose Chamber) and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

6 His going forth (Whose going forth) is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit (Whose Circuit)unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

God didn't have the Holy Scriptures written so that men could cherry pick through them, and only quote the parts that can be twisted to promote one of this world's countless religious theories. If you knew the answer to these questions asked, you wouldn't have used David in such a way.

Have you paid attention to my toggle signature at the end of each of my posts?

Yes, you quote Moses and the Prophets describing God as a God "who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth"

But when you preach to others about God, you preach "That Judaism was God's authoritative religion was not a fiction of the Pharisees."

Implying as you do, that the Pharisees were just following the OT scriptures.

So yes, I read your quote, but I also read your preaching, (your works), which contradict Moses and the Prophets you quoted. It's obvious you quote Moses and the Prophets, like the Pharisees did each Sabbath, but you don't believe Moses and the Prophets, as shown by the doctrines you promote, also like the Pharisees.

Therefore, when you read Moses and the Prophets, I am obliged to listen and whatsoever they bid me observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after your works: for you say, and do not.

And so in doing what the scriptures teach, whose authority is being promoted here? Yours, or Moses and the Prophets?

These are legitimate points, and questions. A man can either follow Paul's instruction, and trust the scriptures for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Or they can reject the scriptures that contradict their adopted religious philosophy and spend all their time justifying their own religion.

I advocate for the serious, unbiased examination and discussion of Scriptures, not picking one of the many religions which exist in the land God placed me in and become their servant to promote them, in spite of the Scriptures.

 

[Studyman]

Failure to deal with Mt 23:2-3. . .and pathetic attempt to distract from that failure with false accusation.

Setting Scripture against itself in failing to deal with Mt 23:2-3.

"Jesus upheld their (Pharisees) authority", is one of many religious doctrines you are promoting. The children of the devil had control over the temple, and over the reading of Moses and the Prophets in Jesus Time. There was no other way for the multitudes and His Disciples to hear Moses and the Prophets at that time. There is today, because God has provided for everyone to have Moses in their own homes, now "WE" are in charge of reading him. And according to Paul, we should. But the purpose of Jesus wanting men to hear Moses, was to uphold the authority of Moses, not those reading him.

This is clear to a person who doesn't just select one or two verses, and then separates them from the rest of Jesus' Words in Matt. 23. When the entire chapter is read, it is clear that Jesus was exposing the evil and wickedness of the Pharisees. Not "upholding their authority". Instead of just rejecting the entire chapter for the purpose of promoting your own religion, why not consider all that is spoken by Jesus and discuss His Words, and learn from Him, what HIS truth is?

Matt. 23: 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Who taught the "Weightier matter of the law", like Judgment, Mercy and Faith? If you believed the Words of Moses and the Prophets that you posted in your signature, you would know this teaching comes from Moses and the Prophets.

So whose "Authority" is Jesus Promoting here in Matt. 23? The Pharisees who "omitted" God's Laws and created more children of the devil? Or Moses and the Prophets, that Jesus said instructed God's people in judgments, mercy and Faith? "these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Jesus was upholding the Moses and the Prophets, HE was exposing the Pharisees.

Honestly, I can't believe you would go to such lengths, by working so hard to convince others that Jesus was promoting the "authority of the Pharisees", and not Moses and the Prophets who they were to read to the People.

This is why I left mainstream Christianity, 30 years ago now. "Many" continue to promote falsehoods, even after God's Word shows it to them. But I should not be surprised. I have no doubt "many" members of the Pharisees religion heard Jesus Words spoken in Matt. 23. And yet, they still continued in their own manmade religion. My hope is that others will see this hypocrisy and turn to the Jesus of the Bible.

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

[Clare73]

My argument with you, and by extension, this world's religions, is based on the stark difference between what you/they preach and what the Scriptures actually teach. Preaching that the Bible says the Pharisees and corrupt Shepherds of the OT only "altered" God's Laws is a perfect example of the deception Jesus warned about. And preaching that Jesus also "altered" God's Laws takes the cake. Jesus saw all of these false teachings coming and warned His People about it.

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

This describes the countless religious sects and franchises which make up one religion that exist in this world God placed us in. Jesus could have warned about Islam, or Atheists, or Buddhists etc. But HE didn't. He specifically warned about "Christianity", the only religion on the planet where men call Jesus Lord, Lord, and teach that HE is truly the Prophesied Christ.

A man should trust Jesus in all of His Teaching, not just His Words which can be used to prop up one or more popular religious doctrine.



The word "Altered" is your imagined term, not mine, nor was this word used by Jesus or inspired by God in any of the Scriptural reference or descriptions regarding the corrupt priests, scribes or Pharisees. Here is a few of the Words Jesus and the Bible used, that you refuse to share with others. "murderers", "liars", "thieves", "who despised God's Judgments", Polluted God's Sabbaths, walked not in God's Statutes, who were "ignorant" of God's Righteousness, who didn't believe Moses, who were the devils children, who set aside the commandment of God, transgressed the commandments of God by their traditions, who murdered the Prophets God sent to them, who didn't believe the Oracles of God, who turned God's Temple into a religious business, who Led God's People astray, and a lot more.

And yet you are trying to convince me and as many as will listen to you, that the Pharisees religion was founded on the teaching of the OT Scriptures, and that they may have only "altered" a few.

Zacharias, Simeon and Anna's Faith in Christ was founded on OT Scriptures. Not the Pharisees.

Of course, you will be offended by these truths, but the Jesus of the Bible also addressed this.

Matt. 15:12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? 13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.


I'm sure the Pharisees, the mainstream preachers of Christ's Time, didn't believe they despised God either, as they killed His Prophets, and spit on His Son and told lies about Him. Paul explains why, but you don't believe he was speaking of any Jews..

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


Or, you could actually address one of the many scriptures I posted for review and examination and show the most common decency of answering questions that are asked of you.


Psalms 19: 4 Their line (whose line) is gone out through all the earth, and their words (Whose words) to the end of the world. In them (who is "them"?) hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,(Whose Chamber) and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

6 His going forth (Whose going forth) is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit (Whose Circuit)unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

God didn't have the Holy Scriptures written so that men could cherry pick through them, and only quote the parts that can be twisted to promote one of this world's countless religious theories. If you knew the answer to these questions asked, you wouldn't have used David in such a way.


Yes, you quote Moses and the Prophets describing God as a God "who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth"

But when you preach to others about God, you preach "That Judaism was God's authoritative religion was not a fiction of the Pharisees."

Implying as you do, that the Pharisees were just following the OT scriptures.

So yes, I read your quote, but I also read your preaching, (your works), which contradict Moses and the Prophets you quoted. It's obvious you quote Moses and the Prophets, like the Pharisees did each Sabbath, but you don't believe Moses and the Prophets, as shown by the doctrines you promote, also like the Pharisees.

Therefore, when you read Moses and the Prophets, I am obliged to listen and whatsoever they bid me observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after your works: for you say, and do not.

And so in doing what the scriptures teach, whose authority is being promoted here? Yours, or Moses and the Prophets?

These are legitimate points, and questions. A man can either follow Paul's instruction, and trust the scriptures for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Or they can reject the scriptures that contradict their adopted religious philosophy and spend all their time justifying their own religion.

I advocate for the serious, unbiased examination and discussion of Scriptures, not picking one of the many religions which exist in the land God placed me in and become their servant to promote them, in spite of the Scriptures.

Previously addressed. . .

 

[Clare73]

"Jesus upheld their (Pharisees) authority", is one of many religious doctrines you are promoting. The children of the devil had control over the temple, and over the reading of Moses and the Prophets in Jesus Time. There was no other way for the multitudes and His Disciples to hear Moses and the Prophets at that time. There is today, because God has provided for everyone to have Moses in their own homes, now "WE" are in charge of reading him. And according to Paul, we should. But the purpose of Jesus wanting men to hear Moses, was to uphold the authority of Moses, not those reading him.

This is clear to a person who doesn't just select one or two verses, and then separates them from the rest of Jesus' Words in Matt. 23. When the entire chapter is read, it is clear that Jesus was exposing the evil and wickedness of the Pharisees. Not "upholding their authority". Instead of just rejecting the entire chapter for the purpose of promoting your own religion, why not consider all that is spoken by Jesus and discuss His Words, and learn from Him, what HIS truth is?

Matt. 23: 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Who taught the "Weightier matter of the law", like Judgment, Mercy and Faith? If you believed the Words of Moses and the Prophets that you posted in your signature, you would know this teaching comes from Moses and the Prophets.

So whose "Authority" is Jesus Promoting here in Matt. 23? The Pharisees who "omitted" God's Laws and created more children of the devil? Or Moses and the Prophets, that Jesus said instructed God's people in judgments, mercy and Faith? "these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Jesus was upholding the Moses and the Prophets, HE was exposing the Pharisees.

Honestly, I can't believe you would go to such lengths, by working so hard to convince others that Jesus was promoting the "authority of the Pharisees", and not Moses and the Prophets who they were to read to the People.

This is why I left mainstream Christianity, 30 years ago now. "Many" continue to promote falsehoods, even after God's Word shows it to them. But I should not be surprised. I have no doubt "many" members of the Pharisees religion heard Jesus Words spoken in Matt. 23. And yet, they still continued in their own manmade religion. My hope is that others will see this hypocrisy and turn to the Jesus of the Bible.

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Previously addressed. . .

 

[Studyman]

Judaism is the OT Scriptures.

You confuse Judaism with Judaizer. . .no wonder you are so off.

Isn't a Judaizer a person who promotes Judaism? How am I so far off? And where in the Holy Scriptures is the Law and Prophets called "Judaism"? I mean, I get the Jesus of the Bible was from the Tribe of Judah, and HE was the Rock of Israel that many of the Israelites disregarded.

Duet. 32: 18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. 20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

1 Cor. 10: 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

So I can see how one could associate the Christ from Judah, and His Teaching as "Judaism". And so His Disciples would then be called "Judaizers". Promoting the Teaching of the Rock of Israel. Which makes sense given Paul's words regarding the origin of the Gospel of Christ.

Rom. 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein (Within the Gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (A Scripture found in the OT) 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

So all this was revealed in the Gospel of Christ, found in the Law and Prophets, and believed on by all the Faithful, including Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, who all exhibited great Faith in the Christ of the Bible, the Rock of Israel, their salvation spoken of by the Prophets from the very beginning.

So even though the word "Judaism" doesn't exist in scriptures, the Word "Christian" does. And this would mean the same thing, Yes? People who were "Christ like" or "Rock Like", who promoted the teaching of the Christ, the Rock of Israel, the Law and Prophets that Jesus said would be here as long as the earth is here, and that Paul told the Body of Christ to continue in for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

So although this word is man made, I can see how a person might lawfully incorporate it into the Faithful's belief.

Jesus was born, lived, preached and died under the Old Covenant.
He preached the Old Covenant Mosaic law. . .for the same reason God gave it to the Jews. . .to demonstrate that righteousness could not be had by law keeping (Gal 3:10), that they needed a Savior from their inability to obey God.

I think you are confusing the Priesthood "Works of the Law" of forgiveness, which was "ADDED" 430 years after God said Abraham Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Since you are in error about Jesus upholding the authority of the Pharisees in Matt. 23, and a little leaven leavens the whole lump, it also seems you are not accurately defining God's definition of His Own New Covenant.

And this world's preaching of the One True God, that HE saved Abraham's Children in Egypt, by persuading them to Trust Him, then after they trusted Him HE placed Laws on their necks impossible to follow, lied to them by telling them they could obey Him, and then slaughtered them by the thousands when they didn't, is a repulsive and wicked religious philosophy. And one Jesus nor any of His Disciples promoted. But one you have been snared to promote. I left this world's religions because of this kind of wicked teaching and am trying to warn my brothers and sisters to "Come out of her", and trust the God of Abraham, and the Holy scriptures HE Inspired for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

My hope in that you might consider, and if not, maybe others reading along might consider.

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world, because God decreed all from the foundation of the world.

In my understanding, God created time, a realm HE doesn't live in, but exists outside of. He Holds all of time like a globe in HIS Hands, and therefore knows the end from the beginning. So HE knew what the children of the devil would do to His Son, from the foundation of the world. Because to God, it already happened.

Adam and Eve were given the same "other chance" that all mankind is given, faith in the Promised Seed (Ge 3:15, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16); i.e., the proto-evangel of the OT (the pre-gospel).

Yes, as Zacharias also understood.

Luke 1: 67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

Truly Zacharias promoted the Rock of Israel, slain from the foundation of the world.

Of course, you don't know the difference between Judaism and Judaizer,

Just because I don't believe in this world's religions you are promoting doesn't mean I have no knowledge.

between the mercy of the way of the Lord (faith in Jesus Christ) and mercy,
between the authority of the chair of Moses and abuse of that authority,
between God's authoritative Old Covenant law and NT faith,
between the OT Old Mosaic Covenant and the NT New Covenant,
etc., etc., etc.

In the religion you have adopted, and are promoting, God is an authoritative God, giving men instructions impossible to follow. But in the Words of the Holy scriptures you quote, God is a God who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth,

I am going to go with what God actually says, not the religious franchise or sect you are promoting. I would advise you to consider doing the same.

That would be closer to five years.

You may be right about this.

Nor do you have to lump all Jews in with the Pharisees.

I don't, and you know it.

Matt. 15: 13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

In your religion, were the Pharisees Blind? Of course you won't answer.

That's failure to distinguish between the Pharisees and the Jewish people.

"Zacharias and Simeon "Yielded themselves" servants to obey God as Paul instructs. The Body of the Christ of the Bible "Yields themselves" servants to obey God, and they become "Servants of God's Righteousness", as Paul teaches.

"For those who were Jews inwardly, like Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and their Savior the Lord's Christ, and all the Members of God's Church in which Christ is the Head, the OT is what they all relied upon, for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

It was only a matter of time before you started resorting to "Tale bearing".

Paul was the author of no religion.

True, he was a member of the Jews religion, which persecuted members of God's true church, and killed the Prophets God sent to them, then the Christ of the Bible changed him into a Servant of God's Righteousness, who obeyed the Law of God with his mind, and pressed towards the High Prize of perfection, which was in the Christ of the Bible.

 

[Clare73]

Isn't a Judaizer a person who promotes Judaism?

Which does not make them the same, anymore than one who promotes skiing is the same as a ski.

How am I so far off? And where in the Holy Scriptures is the Law and Prophets called "Judaism"?

Where in the Scriptures would Judaism not mean believers and followers of the OT Scriptures?

I mean, I get the Jesus of the Bible was from the Tribe of Judah, and HE was the Rock of Israel that many of the Israelites disregarded.

Duet. 32: 18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. 20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

1 Cor. 10: 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

So I can see how one could associate the Christ from Judah, and His Teaching as "Judaism".

But you can't see how what the Jews believed, particularly the Levitical laws and the sacrificial system would be Judaism?. . ."interesting". . .explains a lot.

And so His Disciples would then be called "Judaizers". Promoting the Teaching of the Rock of Israel. Which makes sense given Paul's words regarding the origin of the Gospel of Christ.

But you don't see why those who judaize (Gal 3:21, promote Judaism) would be judaizers?. . .again, "interesting". . .and continuing to explain a lot.

Rom. 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein (Within the Gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (A Scripture found in the OT) 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

So all this was revealed in the Gospel of Christ, found in the Law and Prophets, and believed on by all the Faithful, including Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, who all exhibited great Faith in the Christ of the Bible, the Rock of Israel, their salvation spoken of by the Prophets from the very beginning.

So even though the word "Judaism" doesn't exist in scriptures, the Word "Christian" does. And this would mean the same thing, Yes? People who were "Christ like" or "Rock Like", who promoted the teaching of the Christ, the Rock of Israel, the Law and Prophets that Jesus said would be here as long as the earth is here, and that Paul told the Body of Christ to continue in for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

So although this word is man made, I can see how a person might lawfully incorporate it into the Faithful's belief.

So now you do see why the Jewish practice of the Levitical laws and the sacrifices would be correctly called Judaism?

I think you are confusing the Priesthood "Works of the Law" of forgiveness, which was "ADDED" 430 years after God said
Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The Levitical priesthood was not established until Sinai.

Since you are in error about Jesus upholding the authority of the Pharisees in Matt. 23,

Assertion without Biblical demonstration is assertion without Biblical merit.

And since you have such difficulty understanding NT concepts, terminology and text, I think we have no basis for Biblical discussion.

 

[Studyman]

Which does not make them the same, anymore than one who promotes skiing is the same as a ski.

No, a person who promotes Skiing, is a Skier. Just as a person who promotes Judaism, is a Judaizer.

Where in the Scriptures would Judaism not mean believers and followers of the OT Scriptures?

Judaism is man's creation, not God's, not Jesus'. You call the God inspired Holy Scriptures that Paul teaches to continue in for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works, "Judaism". In fact, I would have to go to the RCC to even find its origins, as the Scriptures promote no such doctrine. Since I'm not catholic, there is really no reason for me to leave the Scriptures, in order to support their doctrines.

But you can't see how what the Jews believed, particularly the Levitical laws and the sacrificial system would be Judaism?. . ."interesting". . .explains a lot.

I'm talking about Jesus, and Zacharias, and Simeon and the Wise men, and Anna. They all knew the OT Scriptures prophesied of a time when Levitical Law, and its sacrificial system would change. Zacharias and Simeon and Anna and the Wise men, all knew the Christ, and had Faith in Him, even before HE came. They knew His Purpose, of His pending death, of His influence on the Gentiles, just as the "OT Scriptures" prophesied.

So I really don't care what the Jews who killed the Prophets, and Jesus and Stephen, and laid aside the commandment of God so they could live in their own religious traditions they taught or promoted. Why would you even listen to them, or their philosophies.

As my Posts show, I am interested in the difference between the belief of Faithful Jews, like Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, vs. the Pharisees religion, who had the same Scriptures, "Professed to know the Same God", and yet didn't know the Christ when HE came.

You are clumping all Jews, even the Faithful Jews, in with the Pharisees, and Jesus, as followers of "OT Scriptures" that you and this world's religions have labeled "Judaism". And yet there is a world of difference between Zacharias and Simeon's belief and practice, and the Pharisees.

It seems important to explore this difference. You obviously don't care.

But you don't see why those who judaize (Gal 3:21, promote Judaism) would be judaizers?. . .again, "interesting". . .and continuing to explain a lot.

So Jesus was a Judaizer, according to your own words about Jesus; "He preached the Old Covenant Mosaic law." This is your definition of Judaizm, Yes?

And thanks for posting a scriptural reference. Please don't blow my questions off, as they are important for this discussion.

Gal. 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? (What Law?) It was added (To what) because of transgressions,(Transgressions of what?) till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law (What Law) then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Let me ask you a question. In the Law and Prophets, after the golden calf incident, when a man found himself in Sin, making him unrighteousness, what did Moses tell him to do? Did Moses take this man and stone him to death? Or was there a Law added, in order for his sins to be forgiven, restoring his righteousness?

Did Moses tell the man, "Keep the Commandments of God, and your sin is forgiven"? Did Moses say, "if you transgress God's Commandments, you shall Love your neighbor as yourself, and your sins are forgiven"?

Or did Moses tell them

Lev. 4: 27And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; (Of Death)

28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.

31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

Did God give this Law to Abraham's Children in the day HE brought them out of Egypt, or even when the first got to Sinai?

Jer. 7: 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

No Clare73, The "works of the Law" regarding animal sacrifice for sins of the common man, wasn't "ADDED" until after the Golden Calf. And it was put in place until the prophesied Messiah should come. Truly, these "works of the Law" were "ADDED" 430 years after Abraham obeyed God, and they were "ADDED" to God Laws because of Transgressions, because Moses pleaded with God, and HE is not an Authoritative God as you preach, but a God of Mercy, Kindness and Justice, and instead of wiping them out, and making a nation out of Moses, HE "ADDED" this Law that the Pharisees were still requiring Jews and Gentiles to do, even though their own Prophesied Savior had come and shed His own Blood for them.

It's right there in your own Bible, and Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wisemen, all knew this undeniable Biblical Truth. You can read about them in the NT.

But the Pharisees didn't. And you don't. And the Pope doesn't. And Calvin didn't. And Wesley didn't. And if I had stayed in the religions of this world that you are currently promoting, I wouldn't either.

This is why I advocate trusting the God Inspired holy scriptures as Paul teaches, and not those "Many" who call Him Lord, Lord, that Jesus warned of.

So now you do see why the Jewish practice of the Levitical laws and the sacrifices would be correctly called Judaism?

The "OT Scriptures" Prophesy of a change in the Levitical Laws and Sacrifices, "After those days". So if a man was a follower the "OT Scriptures", that you label Judaism, like Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, they wouldn't continue bringing animals to the Levite Priest to atone for their sins after their Prophesied Savior, God's Priest, had come. But for those who didn't believe the "OT Scriptures", and were promoting doctrines, traditions and commandments of men, while rejecting the commandments of God, like the Pharisees, they would and did continue promoting the sacrificial "Works of the Law" for justification, even after the prophesied murder of their Savior.

So then, how do you define "Judaism"? Was Jesus and Zacharias and Simeon and Anna, "Judaism" as you insist I call it? Or were the Pharisees who continued to promote the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "Works of the Law", even after the SEED had come, Judaizers?

The Levitical priesthood was not established until Sinai.

True, but the "Works of the Law" requiring common men to bring animals to the Levite Priest and kill it, wasn't "ADDED" until after the Golden calf, after Moses went up to God the 2nd time for 40 days and 40 nights. You can look for yourself, it's in your own Bible.

Assertion without Biblical demonstration is assertion without Biblical merit.

And since you have such difficulty understanding NT concepts, terminology and text, I think we have no basis for Biblical discussion.

That's not it. I understand this world's religions you are promoting perfectly, having been deceived by them for many years myself. The contention between us is caused by the vast difference between your religious philosophy, and what the Holy Scriptures actually teach. The same contention that existed between the Same Holy Scriptures, and the religious doctrines, traditions and commandments of men, the Pharisees promoted.

Nevertheless, it is my hope that you might consider what the Bible actually teaches, and not the sermons of the religions on the Land God placed you in.

 

[AbbaLove]

Bond & Free
Gal 4:
21 Tell me, you who are bent on being under the Law, do you not listen to [what] the Law [really says]?
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman [Hagar] and one by the free woman [Sarah].

Where in the Hebrew Bible does Elohim/YHVH recognize Hagar's son as a separate covenant from GOD to the Arab Nations. The only "Bond Covenant" if it even goes by that name is found in the koran NOT in the Holy Bible (OT/NT).
The only Jews still "bent under the Law" would be Orthodox Judaism ... they don't believe in Yeshuah HaMashiach as Israel's Messiah.

Messanic Judaism that began in the 60's-70's with Jews converted to Christianity still desiring to worship on Saturady ... as do some 7th Day Christian denominations. Even some former non-Jewish Christians became dissatified with easy-peasy Christianity They left and have joined a local Messianic congregation. Some Messianic congregations now have more non-jewish members than Jewish members.

(MY NOTE: Hagar & Sarah represent 2 different covenants. Hagar a bondservant/slave represents the Old Mosaic LAW covenant, written on stone & a circumcision made with human hands.

Where did you ever get the idea that the "Old Mosauc LAW Covenant" (with its hundreds of laws) is now the Bond Covenant of Islam and no longer a covenant of Orthodox Judaism. Just because the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD doesn't mean the Mosaic LAW Covenant was transferred to the Arab Muslim nations.

There would be no Christianity without the Hebrew/Jewish Bible (Romans 11:17-22). In case you weren't aware ... Jesus was Jewish

 

[BrotherJJ]

Where in the Hebrew Bible does Elohim/YHVH recognize Hagar's son as a separate covenant from GOD to the Arab Nations. The only "Bond Covenant" if it even goes by that name is found in the koran NOT in the Holy Bible (OT/NT).
The only Jews still "bent under the Law" would be Orthodox Judaism ... they don't believe in Yeshuah HaMashiach as Israel's Messiah.

Messanic Judaism that began in the 60's-70's with Jews converted to Christianity still desiring to worship on Saturady ... as do some 7th Day Christian denominations. Even some former non-Jewish Christians became dissatified with easy-peasy Christianity They left and have joined a local Messianic congregation. Some Messianic congregations now have more non-jewish members than Jewish members.

Where did you ever get the idea that the "Old Mosauc LAW Covenant" (with its hundreds of laws) is now the Bond Covenant of Islam and no longer a covenant of Orthodox Judaism. Just because the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD doesn't mean the Mosaic LAW Covenant was transferred to the Arab Muslim nations.

There would be no Christianity without the Hebrew/Jewish Bible (Romans 11:17-22). In case you weren't aware ... Jesus was Jewish

The verses posted in the OP (your arguing against) were a direct copy & paste from the Amplified Bible. Find them here again with a source link provided below.

The Bond & free narrative is written by the apostle Paul (not me). If you read the post you'd know it's an allegory (read verse 24). You're free to disagree with scripture & or my notes (that parroted them). I stand behind both!

Bond and Free
Gal 4:

21 Tell me, you who are bent on being under the Law, do you not listen to [what] the Law [really says]?

22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman [Hagar] and one by the free woman [Sarah]. 23 But the child of the slave woman was born according to the flesh and had an ordinary birth, while the son of the free woman was born in fulfillment of the promise.

24 Now these facts are about to be used [by me] as an allegory [that is, I will illustrate by using them]: for these women can represent two covenants: one [covenant originated] from Mount Sinai [where the Law was given] that bears children [destined] for slavery; she is Hagar.

25 Now Hagar is (represents) Mount Sinai in Arabia and she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.

26 But the Jerusalem above [that is, the way of faith, represented by Sarah] is free; she is our mother.

27 For it is written [in the Scriptures], “Rejoice, o barren woman who has not given birth; Break forth into a [joyful] shout, you who are not in labor;
For the desolate woman has many more children Than she who has a husband.”

28 And we, [believing] brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children [not merely of physical descent, like Ishmael, but are children born] of promise [born miraculously].

29 But as at that time the child [of ordinary birth] born according to the flesh persecuted the son who was born according to [the promise and working of] the Spirit, so it is now also.

30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman [Hagar] and her son [Ishmael], For never shall the son of the bondwoman be heir and share the inheritance with the son of the free woman.”

31 So then, believers, we [who are born again—reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose] are not children of a slave woman [the natural], but of the free woman [the supernatural].

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 4 - Amplified Bible

Sonship in Christ - Now what I mean [when I talk about children and their guardians] is this: as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave even though he is the [future owner and] master of all [the estate]; but he is under [the authority of] guardians and household...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[AbbaLove]

Thanks for your reply.

Had not considered there to be a "Hagar Covenant" Likewise never thought of there being a "Sarah Covenant".
In like manner we might say the NT/NC is a "Mary Covenent". Likewise the significance in the NC of John the Baptist via Elizabeth (Matthew 11:11). Were not all these woman considered worthy by Adonai.

Likewise can we not say that Hagar was considered worthy enuf as a loyal [bond] servant to Abraham and Sarah and GOD. Would GOD have made a covenant with Hagar if she and her son were not worthy of savng grace.

FWIW ... Paul considered himself to be a faithful "bond servant".

 

[BrotherJJ]

The point/teaching of Paul's ALLEGORY was the contrast between two covenants.

One physical (those under it were SLAVES to it) Mosaic law. One spiritual (those under it are FREE from the punitive punishments the old levied). And those under the Mosaic covenant aren't heirs with those of FAITH under the N/C.

Gen 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

BTW, the Lord did make a promise (that He kept) to Hagar Gen 21:10-24

 

[Studyman]

The point/teaching of Paul's ALLEGORY was the contrast between two covenants.

One physical (those under it were SLAVES to it) Mosaic law. One spiritual (those under it are FREE from the punitive punishments the old levied). And those under the Mosaic covenant aren't heirs with those of FAITH under the N/C.

But what if the "law" that was "ADDED", "Because of Transgressions" Til the SEED should come, wasn't the entire Law that God gave Moses as "many" who come in Christ's Name imply?

What if the LAW Paul is speaking to, is the Law regarding the removal or forgiveness of the "unrighteousness or ungodliness of men",
AKA "Sin"? And not the Laws of God defining Sin, and provided for HIS People, for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness as Paul teaches the Body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile years into God's New Covenant (Not mans) has gone into effect?

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit (Forgiveness) by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Truly, after the Golden Calf, a Law was "ADDED" that Israel would not have been given, nor had anyone been given.

So those men, "AFTER" the Golden Calf, a great "Transgression", were slaves to this Priesthood Covenant, which required that they, for the first time in Biblical history, be required "by law" to bring a live sin offering, and kill it in front of only a Levite Priest, to become righteous again, after they were found in sin.

As it is written, and you ignored the first time I posted it.

Jer. 7: 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

No, the "law" Paul is speaking to in Gal. 3, was "ADDED" because of transgressions, "Til the Seed (God's Priest After the Order of Melchizedek) should come".

So 2 Covenants regarding justification/forgiveness of sins for men. The First concerning burnt offering and sacrifices for sins. The 2nd concerning belief/Faith in the burnt offering and sacrifice of sins the Prophesied SEED provided by offering Himself to God.

"For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

If you refuse to identify or even Acknowledge the difference between God's Inspired Word for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

from the "ADDED" Priesthood which required the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh, "Til the SEED should come". Then the entire theology is corrupted. The Pharisees made this mistake. As well as "Many" who come in Christ's Name today, just as Jesus Prophesied.

My hope is that folks might study for themselves, and not just take to world of a self-proclaimed "minister of righteousness". Eve made that mistake.

 

[BrotherJJ]

But what if the "law" that was "ADDED", "Because of Transgressions" Til the SEED should come, wasn't the entire Law that God gave Moses as "many" who come in Christ's Name imply?

What if the LAW Paul is speaking to, is the Law regarding the removal or forgiveness of the "unrighteousness or ungodliness of men",
AKA "Sin"? And not the Laws of God defining Sin, and provided for HIS People, for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness as Paul teaches the Body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile years into God's New Covenant (Not mans) has gone into effect?

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit (Forgiveness) by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Truly, after the Golden Calf, a Law was "ADDED" that Israel would not have been given, nor had anyone been given.

So those men, "AFTER" the Golden Calf, a great "Transgression", were slaves to this Priesthood Covenant, which required that they, for the first time in Biblical history, be required "by law" to bring a live sin offering, and kill it in front of only a Levite Priest, to become righteous again, after they were found in sin.

As it is written, and you ignored the first time I posted it.

Jer. 7: 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

No, the "law" Paul is speaking to in Gal. 3, was "ADDED" because of transgressions, "Til the Seed (God's Priest After the Order of Melchizedek) should come".

So 2 Covenants regarding justification/forgiveness of sins for men. The First concerning burnt offering and sacrifices for sins. The 2nd concerning belief/Faith in the burnt offering and sacrifice of sins the Prophesied SEED provided by offering Himself to God.

"For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

If you refuse to identify or even Acknowledge the difference between God's Inspired Word for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

from the "ADDED" Priesthood which required the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh, "Til the SEED should come". Then the entire theology is corrupted. The Pharisees made this mistake. As well as "Many" who come in Christ's Name today, just as Jesus Prophesied.

My hope is that folks might study for themselves, and not just take to world of a self-proclaimed "minister of righteousness". Eve made that mistake.

The seed was promised (Gen 3:15) long before the golden calf at Sinai. Again to Abraham:

Gen 22:14 So Abraham named that place The Lord Will Provide. And it is said to this day, “On the mountain of the Lord it [j]will be seen and provided.”
(MY NOTE: The Lord Will Provide. Ok, PROVIDE what? A SACRIFICE! The promised seed/Christ is = The SACRIFICE/Sins Atonement!)

God's laws are just, BUT, they can't justify anyone. God's laws are holy, BUT, can't make anyone holy. His law is righteous, BUT, can't make anyone righteous.

If the law can't make us holy, righteous or justified. And condemned the sinner without mercy to death. And was to be preached UNTIL Christ's arrival (Gal 3:19).

Why, are so many people tenaciously driven. To place today's NT believers under it's yoke of condemnation (2 Cor 3:9? It's past time believers disconnect ourselves from the punitive yoke of guilt & condemnation it demands.

When we make our main focus on self-works & not Christ's. Our pathway to complete remission/pardon from sin is: Found/accessed (Rom 5:1-2) only by FAITH placed in Jesus sin atoning death & resurrection.

The contrast between law & faith involves death & curses levied by the law. Those who trust their own works of keeping the law, are under these ordinance. By this attempt to establish an acceptable relationship with God based on their own human works.

Those who choose to live by human performance under OT ordinance via human performance. Must accomplish "everything" the law commands (impossible).

Performance short of ALL that the law demands, some of the time, is unacceptable. Those who violate any portion (Ja 2:10) of the law's demands deserve all the judgment that Jesus took on the cross.

Living by self-works in law keeping isn't living by faith. The gracious provision of salvation "through Faith" is our NT abundant hope.

Tit 3:5 ""Not by works of righteousness which we have done"", ""but according to his mercy he saved us"", by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, & called us with an holy calling, """not according to our works""" but """according to his own purpose and grace""", which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

No one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident (Gals 3:11)

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ""ye are not under the law"", ""but under grace"" (Rom 6:14).

""The just shall live by faith"". (Galatians 3:11, Habakkuk 2:4 & Romans 1:17)

Faith depends upon trusting the work of another: I.E. our Lord, Savior & God, Jesus the Christ:

Tit 2:
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works

We need to stop placing salvations focus on our self works & put ALL the focus on the true Champion our Lord, Savior & God. Jesus the Christ, who deserves all the praise, glory & honor. AMEM & Amen!

 

[Studyman]

The seed was promised (Gen 3:15) long before the golden calf at Sinai. Again to Abraham:

Gen 22:14 So Abraham named that place The Lord Will Provide. And it is said to this day, “On the mountain of the Lord it [j]will be seen and provided.”
(MY NOTE: The Lord Will Provide. Ok, PROVIDE what? A SACRIFICE! The promised seed/Christ is = The SACRIFICE/Sins Atonement!)

I was commenting on the difference between the religious philosophy you are promoting, and what the Scriptures actually teach.

God's laws are just, BUT, they can't justify anyone.

You preach "God's laws are just, BUT, they can't justify anyone." But Paul teaches, "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." Doers of what Law? The "sacrificial "works" of Taking a goat to the Levite for forgiveness of Sins?

God's laws are holy, BUT, can't make anyone holy.

1 Peter 1: 13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 "Because" it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

His law is righteous, BUT, can't make anyone righteous.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Paul teaches the Body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile;

1 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Why does Paul teach the Body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile, that they even need doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness:? He tells the Body why, for those who believe him.

"That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. But why concern myself with being perfect, as the religions of this world God placed me in, teaches that Jesus is perfect for me??

Because Jesus was sent by God to teach His People; Matt. 5: 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Now the truth of the Scriptures is that Paul taught this to repentant men who have sinned, for all men have sinned. But you are preaching a completely different gospel than the New Testament. I believe this is because you refuse to, or cannot acknowledge between God's Eternal Laws, and the LAW HE "ADDED" because of Transgressions, "till the Seed should come".

Why was Jesus considered perfect by God? Phil. 2: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore (Because of this) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

So walking in God's Laws made Jesus both Righteous and perfect. Walking in What Laws? Taking a goat to the Levite Priest, and killing it?

Paul teaches the Body of Christ, years after Jesus ascended;

Romans 6: 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye (The Body of Christ both Jew and Gentile) were the servants of sin, but ye (The Body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile) have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Obeyed what from the heart? Bringing a goat to the Levite Priest, and Killing it?

When a man accepts what Law was "ADDED" to God's "Instruction in Righteousness", "Til the Seed should come", everything changes. All things are New. We become a New man as Paul writes;

Eph. 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which "after God" is created in "righteousness" and true "holiness". Just like Jesus taught. "Now go, and Sin no more".

If the law can't make us holy, righteous or justified. And condemned the sinner without mercy to death. And was to be preached UNTIL Christ's arrival (Gal 3:19).

Here again, you Judge God as some unmerciful God, and His Instruction as unjust. Do you not read the Law?

Jer. 9: 23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: 24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.


And why the great disparity between popular religious philosophy of this world, and what the scriptures actually teach? One reason, in my view, is the refusal to accept the separation between God's instruction in Righteousness, and the Temporary "law of Forgiveness" Added to His Righteous, Good and Just Law, because of transgressions. And put in place, till the True Priest of God should come, "After the Order of Melchizedek, and not after the Order of Aaron".

There was always a separation between Sacrificial Law, and God's Instruction in Righteousness. The mainstream preachers of
Jesus' time didn't understand this, and they don't today either.

1 Sam. 15: 22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

 

[Studyman]

Why, are so many people tenaciously driven. To place today's NT believers under it's yoke of condemnation (2 Cor 3:9?

2 Cor. 3: 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

The "Ministration of Death", was not a "Yoke of Condemnation" as you preach. But Glorious, which Glory was to be done away. But the "Ministration of Righteousness" is much more Glorious. Because you don't understand what the "Ministration of Death" is, preaching that it is All of God's Laws, you don't understand what the "Ministration of Righteousness" is.

God knew His Son, the Rock of Israel, would become a man and dwell among us, and do so knowing full well HE would be killed. Yet His Son offered anyway. So HE knew from the onset, that the Levitical Priesthood, After the Order of Aaron, was Temporary the day HE gave it to Israel. God knew, and so did the New testament Authors. "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

But because you are furthering this world's religious theory that the Ministration of Death was God's Entire Law Structure, you can't discern the difference between God's Instruction in Righteousness that Jesus and Paul promoted, and the ADDED "Ministration of death" requiring the death of bulls and goats for atonement of sins, "Till the SEED should Come". You don't understand that is was these sacrifices and offerings that were to lead God's People to the Christ. And for Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, it did just that. (See Luke 1&2)

If you could only consider, "thou shall not Kill" didn't lead anyone to the Christ of the Bible. He came to Save the Sinner, not the Righteous. It wasn't until the Law was broken, that men need His Atoning Blood. The Priesthood Covenant that was ADDED, was to lead them to the rock of Israel. And for the Faithful, it did just that. And now that HE has come, the manner in which sins are forgiven has changed, as Prophesied.

It's past time believers disconnect ourselves from the punitive yoke of guilt & condemnation it demands.

Believers in what? That all of God's Instruction in Righteousness Paul was a Servant of, is a "punitive yoke of guilt and condemnation".

When we make our main focus on self-works & not Christ's. Our pathway to complete remission/pardon from sin is: Found/accessed (Rom 5:1-2) only by FAITH placed in Jesus sin atoning death & resurrection.

The Jesus of the Bible says;

"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

He also warns His People;

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So He doesn't repent for me. And HE doesn't "Go and Sin no more" for me.

And Paul teaches that God " will render to every man according to his deeds:" Not Jesus' Deeds. Paul also teaches who receives eternal life;

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Jesus also tells us "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

So I get that Jesus' takes the sins away from the repentant of the world. Which is Passover. But this is only the beginning of His Father's Salvation, not the end. We are still instructed to "Go and Sin no more", which is shown by the Feast of the Lord, "Feast of Unleavened bread", which is symbolic of "Go and Sin no more".

You never mention that part. And if God tells me to "Wash in the Jordan river", and I obey Him. That isn't "Self works", rather, it is "Yielding myself" a servant to Obey God, as Paul teaches. Listen to Peter describe what it is.

1 Pet. 5: 6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

This is why Paul teaches to "Continue" in the Law and Prophets for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I have no reason not to believe him.

The contrast between law & faith involves death & curses levied by the law.

That is again, your religion. Not what Paul teaches.

Rom. 7: 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.


This is the very question you answered. You preach the Law levies Death and Curses. But when Paul is asked, HE says just the opposite, "God forbid" (That means NO, God's Laws wasn't made death unto Paul). It's right there in your own bible. So what does he teach then, since it is clear he isn't teaching your religion.

But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

So Paul says the penalty for sin is so steep, not to bring him death, as you preach, but to show him how evil and wicked it is to God, for men to sin against Him. It's "Exceedingly Sinful" to disobey God. That is why His Faithful in the Bible worked so hard Striving against sin. And it is also why Paul teaches "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of (God's) righteousness. (Not our own)" As he teaches, we are servants to whom we "Yield ourselves" to Obey.

And again;

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I know you are only promoting popular religious philosophy, but I am hoping you might reconsider who you "Yield yourself" servants to obey. We are warned to "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Those who trust their own works of keeping the law, are under these ordinance. By this attempt to establish an acceptable relationship with God based on their own human works.

If you believed the Jesus of the Bible, or Paul, you wouldn't be promoting this religious philosophy.

Those who choose to live by human performance under OT ordinance via human performance. Must accomplish "everything" the law commands (impossible).

Also a doctrine of this world, not from the God of the Bible, Nor His son, Nor His Son's Disciples.

Performance short of ALL that the law demands, some of the time, is unacceptable. Those who violate any portion (Ja 2:10) of the law's demands deserve all the judgment that Jesus took on the cross.

Again, this is your religion, created by man.

Here is what the God of the Bible teaches.

Ez. 18: 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Paul teaches the same to both Jew and Gentile.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

This man with receive Mercy and help in time of need. But to those who call Him Lord, Lord, and "DO" not what HE says "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Living by self-works in law keeping isn't living by faith. The gracious provision of salvation "through Faith" is our NT abundant hope.

The Jesus of the Bible teaches;

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 5: 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

A man can't have faith in the Words of Christ and not the Words of His Father. At least, not according to the Jesus of the Bible.

All these direct contradictions to the very Words of the God inspired holy scriptures. And why?

Perhaps if you reconsidered what LAW was "ADDED" (ADDED to What?) because of Transgressions, (Transgressions of what) Till the SEED should come, your understanding and Paul's would be united. But to do that, you would have to accept his teaching, that the Law and Prophets, Inspired by the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, were written for our admonition for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

It is my sincerest hope that you will.

 

[Clare73]

I was commenting on the difference between the religious philosophy you are promoting, and what the Scriptures actually teach.
You preach "God's laws are just, BUT, they can't justify anyone." But Paul teaches, "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." Doers of what Law? The "sacrificial "works" of Taking a goat to the Levite for forgiveness of Sins?

And in context, thereby demonstrating that no one (Jew nor Gentile) can be justified by the law (because no one has the power to keep it according to God's requirements). Ro 2:13, Ro 3:9.

1 Peter 1: 13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 "Because" it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Paul teaches the Body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile;
1 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Why does Paul teach the Body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile, that they even need doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness:? He tells the Body why, for those who believe him.
"That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. But why concern myself with being perfect, as the religions of this world God placed me in, teaches that Jesus is perfect for me??
Because Jesus was sent by God to teach His People; Matt. 5: 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Now the truth of the Scriptures is that Paul taught this to repentant men who have sinned, for all men have sinned. But you are preaching a completely different gospel than the New Testament. I believe this is because you refuse to, or cannot acknowledge between God's Eternal Laws, and the LAW HE "ADDED" because of Transgressions, "till the Seed should come".

The conditional Mosaic Covenant and law was added to the conditional ("As for me" v.4; "As for you," v.9) Abrahamic Covenant (Ge 15:9-21) to be the God of righteous Abraham (Ge 15:6) and the God of his righteous descendants (by faith in the promised Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16), which covenant was conditioned on total consecration to the Lord and sealed in blood by circumcision, the cutting off of flesh.

Paul argues in Gal 3:19 that the Mosaic law was not designed to annul the promise to Abraham (and to establish a different way of justification than by faith), but was added because the Israelites, though they were chosen to be God's people, were sinners as well as others and, therefore, the law was given to convince them of their sin, to restrain them from committing sin, and to show them the only way sin was atoned for--through death and sacrifice, "till the Seed should come."
That was the only purpose of the temporary Mosaic Covenant and law (Heb 8:13), with no distinction from "God's Eternal Law."

Why was Jesus considered perfect by God? Phil. 2: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore (Because of this) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
So walking in God's Laws made Jesus both Righteous and perfect.
Walking in What Laws? Taking a goat to the Levite Priest, and killing it?

No, Jesus is divine, he was born righteous, just as Adam was created righteous.
Jesus kept his righteousness through perfect obedience to all God's laws,
Adam lost his righteousness through disobedience to God's law (Ge 2:17).

Paul teaches the Body of Christ, years after Jesus ascended;
Romans 6: 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye (The Body of Christ both Jew and Gentile) were the servants of sin, but ye (The Body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile) have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Obeyed what from the heart? Bringing a goat to the Levite Priest, and Killing it?
When a man accepts what Law was "ADDED" to God's "Instruction in Righteousness", "Til the Seed should come", everything changes.

There were no Scriptures instructing in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16) in Abraham's day when the Seed was promised (Ge 15:5).
The Scriptures instructing in righteousness in Jesus' day were the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms, which Jesus obeyed perfectly, keeping his righteousness to the end.

All things are New. We become a New man as Paul writes;
Eph. 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which "after God" is created in "righteousness" and true "holiness". Just like Jesus taught. "Now go, and Sin no more".

That text is subject to more than one interpretation. It can also mean that the man's disease was caused by sin (Jn 5:14), which interpretation does not contradict authoritative NT apostolic teaching in 1 Jn 1:8-10, as does your interpretation.

Here again, you Judge God as some unmerciful God, and His Instruction as unjust. Do you not read the Law?
Jer. 9: 23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: 24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.
Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
And why the great disparity between popular religious philosophy of this world, and what the scriptures actually teach? One reason, in my view, is the refusal to accept the separation between God's instruction in Righteousness, and the Temporary "law of Forgiveness" Added to His Righteous, Good and Just Law, because of transgressions. And put in place, till the True Priest of God should come, "After the Order of Melchizedek, and not after the Order of Aaron".

There was always a separation between Sacrificial Law, and God's Instruction in Righteousness. The mainstream preachers of
Jesus' time didn't understand this, and they don't today either.

God's "instruction in righteousness" (2 Tim 3:16) refers to the Scriptures begun in Moses' day, which include the sacrificial laws of Leviticus, and present no "separation between "sacrificial law" and "God's instruction in righteousness" (2 Tim 3:16).
There were no such "instructions in righteousness" (2 Tim 3:16) in Abraham's day.

1 Sam. 15: 22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

In context, that was spoken to disobedient sinful Israel offering sacrifices with insincere hearts, which sincere hearts were preferred by God over sacrifices by sinful insincere hearts.

 

[Studyman]

And in context, thereby demonstrating that no one (Jew nor Gentile) can be justified by the law (because no one has the power to keep it according to God's requirements). Ro 2:13, Ro 3:9.

The preaching that God created impossible laws to follow, then slaughtered those who didn't follow them, is a popular religious philosophy of this world God placed me in. But a deception just the same. Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, Daniel, Shadrack, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and a host of other Faithful men in the Bible, most certainly kept God's Laws according to God's requirements. Not according to your judgments of God, but according to HIS Words. As HE said,

23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:

24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

As Paul also teaches. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Your preaching that God gave us instruction, but not the power to walk in this instruction, is a deception.

The conditional Mosaic Covenant and law was added to the conditional ("As for me" v.4; "As for you," v.9) Abrahamic Covenant (Ge 15:9-21) to be the God of righteous Abraham (Ge 15:6) and the God of his righteous descendants (by faith in the promised Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16), which covenant was conditioned on total consecration to the Lord and sealed in blood by circumcision, the cutting off of flesh.

It is much simpler and easier to understand than this sermon. Why did God bless Abraham?

Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The Simplicity that is in Christ, even a child can understand.

Paul argues in Gal 3:19 that the Mosaic law was not designed to annul the promise to Abraham (and to establish a different way of justification than by faith),

Abraham had God's Laws, God's Statutes, God's Judgments and God's Commandments. Your entire religion, according to your posts, is founded on the belief that God gave Abraham different Laws, Statutes, Commandments and Judgements, than HE gave to Abraham's Children in the day HE led them out of Egypt. But Abraham was not given a Law ever, requiring that he bring a goat to the Levite Priest and Kill it because he sinned. When was this Law "ADDED" to the Commandments God gave to Abraham, then to Abraham's Children? I posted the answer, but you completely ignored even its existence.

No doubt you will do so again, but I'll post it just in case.

Jer. 7: 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

So Abraham, as clearly shown by God's Word, had His Laws, His Statutes, His Judgments, and His Commandments. And he was a "Doer" of the Law, not a Hearer only. "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the "doers of the law", (Like Abraham,) shall be justified." Not Justified by the "Works of the Law" concerning burnt offering and sacrifices for sins, because the LAW concerning animal sacrifice for sins was not "ADDED" until 430 years after him. They were "ADDED" to God's Commandments, Statutes, Laws and Judgments Abraham Obeyed, because Israel Hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, or as Paul teaches, "Transgressed".

This is a very important foundation truth here. "Many" have been convinced of the deception that ALL of God's LAWS HE gave to Moses, were ADDED "because of Transgressions", which makes no sense because "Transgression", or "Sin" is Transgression of God's Law. How could they "Transgress" Laws that you preach didn't exist before the Exodus?

The Law that was "ADDED" for "forgiveness" till the Seed should come, was the Priesthood covenant concerning burnt offering and sacrifices for sin. Abraham was Justified "Apart" from this Law, as it wasn't added until 430 years after him. Not according to the Pope, or Wesley or Calvin or Jim Bakker. But according to the God Inspired Holy Scriptures that Paul taught to Body of Christ to continue in, in these evil times when men come in Christ's Name to deceive.

Stand back and think about this a little. Is God lying to you though Jeremiah?

 

[BrotherJJ]

2 Cor. 3: 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

The "Ministration of Death", was not a "Yoke of Condemnation" as you preach. But Glorious, which Glory was to be done away. But the "Ministration of Righteousness" is much more Glorious. Because you don't understand what the "Ministration of Death" is, preaching that it is All of God's Laws, you don't understand what the "Ministration of Righteousness" is.

God knew His Son, the Rock of Israel, would become a man and dwell among us, and do so knowing full well HE would be killed. Yet His Son offered anyway. So HE knew from the onset, that the Levitical Priesthood, After the Order of Aaron, was Temporary the day HE gave it to Israel. God knew, and so did the New testament Authors. "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

But because you are furthering this world's religious theory that the Ministration of Death was God's Entire Law Structure, you can't discern the difference between God's Instruction in Righteousness that Jesus and Paul promoted, and the ADDED "Ministration of death" requiring the death of bulls and goats for atonement of sins, "Till the SEED should Come". You don't understand that is was these sacrifices and offerings that were to lead God's People to the Christ. And for Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, it did just that. (See Luke 1&2)

If you could only consider, "thou shall not Kill" didn't lead anyone to the Christ of the Bible. He came to Save the Sinner, not the Righteous. It wasn't until the Law was broken, that men need His Atoning Blood. The Priesthood Covenant that was ADDED, was to lead them to the rock of Israel. And for the Faithful, it did just that. And now that HE has come, the manner in which sins are forgiven has changed, as Prophesied.



Believers in what? That all of God's Instruction in Righteousness Paul was a Servant of, is a "punitive yoke of guilt and condemnation".



The Jesus of the Bible says;

"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

He also warns His People;

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So He doesn't repent for me. And HE doesn't "Go and Sin no more" for me.

And Paul teaches that God " will render to every man according to his deeds:" Not Jesus' Deeds. Paul also teaches who receives eternal life;

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Jesus also tells us "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

So I get that Jesus' takes the sins away from the repentant of the world. Which is Passover. But this is only the beginning of His Father's Salvation, not the end. We are still instructed to "Go and Sin no more", which is shown by the Feast of the Lord, "Feast of Unleavened bread", which is symbolic of "Go and Sin no more".

You never mention that part. And if God tells me to "Wash in the Jordan river", and I obey Him. That isn't "Self works", rather, it is "Yielding myself" a servant to Obey God, as Paul teaches. Listen to Peter describe what it is.

1 Pet. 5: 6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

This is why Paul teaches to "Continue" in the Law and Prophets for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I have no reason not to believe him.



That is again, your religion. Not what Paul teaches.

Rom. 7: 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.


This is the very question you answered. You preach the Law levies Death and Curses. But when Paul is asked, HE says just the opposite, "God forbid" (That means NO, God's Laws wasn't made death unto Paul). It's right there in your own bible. So what does he teach then, since it is clear he isn't teaching your religion.

But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

So Paul says the penalty for sin is so steep, not to bring him death, as you preach, but to show him how evil and wicked it is to God, for men to sin against Him. It's "Exceedingly Sinful" to disobey God. That is why His Faithful in the Bible worked so hard Striving against sin. And it is also why Paul teaches "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of (God's) righteousness. (Not our own)" As he teaches, we are servants to whom we "Yield ourselves" to Obey.

And again;

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I know you are only promoting popular religious philosophy, but I am hoping you might reconsider who you "Yield yourself" servants to obey. We are warned to "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.



If you believed the Jesus of the Bible, or Paul, you wouldn't be promoting this religious philosophy.



Also a doctrine of this world, not from the God of the Bible, Nor His son, Nor His Son's Disciples.



Again, this is your religion, created by man.

Here is what the God of the Bible teaches.

Ez. 18: 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Paul teaches the same to both Jew and Gentile.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

This man with receive Mercy and help in time of need. But to those who call Him Lord, Lord, and "DO" not what HE says "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


The Jesus of the Bible teaches;

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 5: 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

A man can't have faith in the Words of Christ and not the Words of His Father. At least, not according to the Jesus of the Bible.

All these direct contradictions to the very Words of the God inspired holy scriptures. And why?

Perhaps if you reconsidered what LAW was "ADDED" (ADDED to What?) because of Transgressions, (Transgressions of what) Till the SEED should come, your understanding and Paul's would be united. But to do that, you would have to accept his teaching, that the Law and Prophets, Inspired by the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, were written for our admonition for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

It is my sincerest hope that you will.

I adamantly reject your works based salvation doctrine.

Good works can't save or remit sin, repentance can't save or remit sin, obedience can't save or remit sin etc.

Faith & Faith alone, placed in Christ's finished sin redemptive work found in his death (sins required wage PAID) burial (proof Jesus died) & resurrection (The Father's receipt, payment received & accepted). Is the only way anyone's sins will be pardoned/forgiven!

Perfect defined:

Thayer's Greek Definition #5046 Perfect , [ teleioi ], or 'complete,'

Strong's Definition #5049 Perfect: teleios "having reached its end" (telos), "finished, complete, perfect

Mounce's Definition perfect: mature, finished

Vines dictionary Definition PERFECT: It is used thus of God in Matthew 5:48; (II) of "things, complete, perfect,

KJV Dictionary Definition PER'FECT, a. L. perfectus, perficio, to complete; per and facio, to do or make through, to carry to the end.
1. Finished; complete;

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
(MY NOTE: Believers are made complete/perfect, by FAITH placed in Christ finished sin atoning work)

2 Cor 5:
21 He made Christ who knew no sin to [judicially] be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we would become the righteousness of God [that is, we would be made acceptable to Him and placed in a right relationship with Him by His gracious lovingkindness].

How to become complete/perfect/righteous/saved:
Acknowledge God "IS" & that you've sinned against His sovereign rule. Deserve heavens sin payment "DEATH' (Rom 6:23). Then place your faith in Christ's sin atoning death, burial & resurrection. Confessing Jesus as Lord & believing He rose from from death (Rom 10:9, 1 Cor 15:1-4)

Christ will then place/indwell/baptize you with His salvation sealing, eternal life giving Holy Spirit. Imputing (See Lev chapter 4 & Rom 4) His righteousness onto you & your sins onto Himself. Whereby you become the righteousness of God in Christ (2 Cor 5:21). Whereby you become complete/Perfect. Amen

So sad that these forum law promoters trust in themselves & not in the Lord Jesus. That somehow what He suffered just isn't enough. I say: All the praise, glory & honor belong to our great God & Savior, Jesus the Christ!

 

[Studyman]

I adamantly reject your works based salvation doctrine.

It's God's Salvation that you reject, not mine. I'm just posting His Words and you are ignoring them, choosing instead to promote a popular religious philosophy from one of the "many" philosophies which exist.

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Rom. 2: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

John 6: 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

1 Cor. 6: 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:

Your unbelief in these Inspired Word's of God, spoken to the Body of Christ, don't make my Faith in the God who inspired them of none effect.

Good works can't save or remit sin, repentance can't save or remit sin, obedience can't save or remit sin etc.

God's Works can save me, they are the only "Works" that can. I asked you a question that you can't answer and still justify the religious philosophy you are attempting to convert others to. But I'll ask it again.

If God tells me to wash in the Jordan River to be healed, and I wash in the Jordan River. Was this "MY Works" that healed me, or God's?

Why not just answer the question and have a discussion about it?

Faith & Faith alone, placed in Christ's finished sin redemptive work found in his death (sins required wage PAID) burial (proof Jesus died) & resurrection (The Father's receipt, payment received & accepted). Is the only way anyone's sins will be pardoned/forgiven!

If the Christ of the Bible tells me to "Go and Sin no more", but "Many", who come in His Name, preach to the world that Jesus is basically lying to me, that it's impossible to "go and sin no more". How is that religion living in Faith in God or His Son?

Perfect defined:

Thayer's Greek Definition #5046 Perfect , [ teleioi ], or 'complete,'

Strong's Definition #5049 Perfect: teleios "having reached its end" (telos), "finished, complete, perfect

Mounce's Definition perfect: mature, finished

Vines dictionary Definition PERFECT: It is used thus of God in Matthew 5:48; (II) of "things, complete, perfect,

KJV Dictionary Definition PER'FECT, a. L. perfectus, perficio, to complete; per and facio, to do or make through, to carry to the end.
1. Finished; complete;

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
(MY NOTE: Believers are made complete/perfect, by FAITH placed in Christ finished sin atoning work)

Heb. 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

How can you be complete in Him, if you ignore or reject His Inspired Words.

John 5: 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

How then, can a man become "Complete in Him", if they are "Hearers of His Word" only, and not "Doers" as both Jesus and Paul teach?

2 Cor 5:
21 He made Christ who knew no sin to [judicially] be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we would become the righteousness of God [that is, we would be made acceptable to Him and placed in a right relationship with Him by His gracious lovingkindness].

I always marvel how men cherry pick scripture for the purpose of self-justification. 1 Cor. 5 destroys the easy salvation this world's religions promote.

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Here, in the verse you left off, Paul is "beseeching" the Body of Christ, whose Sin have already been removed, "Be ye Reconciled to God". But you are preaching to the World, that Jesus already did that so you have nothing to do or say in the matter. And not only that, but if a man actually believes Paul, Jesus and the Prophets, and "Yields themselves servants to Obey God", like Paul instructs the Body of Christ to do, they are trying to get to heaven by their own "self works".

How is this not the very thing Jesus warned His Church about?

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

How to become complete/perfect/righteous/saved:
Acknowledge God "IS" & that you've sinned against His sovereign rule. Deserve heavens sin payment "DEATH' (Rom 6:23). Then place your faith in Christ's sin atoning death, burial & resurrection. Confessing Jesus as Lord & believing He rose from from death (Rom 10:9, 1 Cor 15:1-4)

This is your religion, but not the Gospel Paul taught both Jew and Gentile.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

And again;

Rom. 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, (Body of Christ) by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: (Including it's religions) but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


The Jesus of the Bible said "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

So you have your religion, and Path that you walk, and Jesus, the Prophets, Paul and the Disciples had God's Path that they walked. Certainly more folks have been convinced to turn away from the "Way of the Lord" of the Bible and join the "many" on the path you promote.

I am advocating for belief and Faith, not in this world's religions and religious philosophies, but in the God inspired Holy scriptures for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Christ will then place/indwell/baptize you with His salvation sealing, eternal life giving Holy Spirit. Imputing (See Lev chapter 4 & Rom 4) His righteousness onto you & your sins onto Himself. Whereby you become the righteousness of God in Christ (2 Cor 5:21). Whereby you become complete/Perfect. Amen

This is certainly a seductive religion and has certainly made this world's religious businesses very wealthy. "Come as you are" and "Jesus does it all for you". But when a man actually reads the scriptures, it becomes clear why Jesus didn't warn His Disciples of the future about Atheists, Islam or Buddhism. Instead, HE warned about "Christians".

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Surely HE saw this world's religions you are promoting coming.

So sad that these forum law promoters trust in themselves & not in the Lord Jesus. That somehow what He suffered just isn't enough. I say: All the praise, glory & honor belong to our great God & Savior, Jesus the Christ!

The Jesus of the Bible said; This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

And again;

"And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

And again;

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What if Jesus is actually right, and it is the religious philosophy of this world you have been convinced of, that is wrong. Certainly a man of faith should consider these things.