Daniel Dulcich's Rebuttal to "10 Commandments show How to Love".

[Leaf473]

Jesus spent his misery teaching how to live under the Mosaic Covenant by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything he taught, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jer:emiah 31:33). God's law was given for our own good in order to teach us how to be blessed (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so those under the law have no need to be redeemed from the law, but rather we had the need to be redeemed from our lawlessness. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the law, but in to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through his ministry and through the cross (Acts 21:20). The Spirit does not have the role of leading us to rebel against the Father, but rather the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey His law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). In Galatians 5:16-18, Paul described the law that we are not one as being a law where our sinful desires caused us not not to do the good of obeying God's law that we want to do, which is the law of sin.

Would that mean that Under the law means different things in different places of Galatians?

 

[Leaf473]

Jesus spent his misery teaching how to live under the Mosaic Covenant by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything he taught, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jer:emiah 31:33). God's law was given for our own good in order to teach us how to be blessed (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so those under the law have no need to be redeemed from the law, but rather we had the need to be redeemed from our lawlessness. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the law, but in to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through his ministry and through the cross (Acts 21:20). The Spirit does not have the role of leading us to rebel against the Father, but rather the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey His law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). In Galatians 5:16-18, Paul described the law that we are not one as being a law where our sinful desires caused us not not to do the good of obeying God's law that we want to do, which is the law of sin.

Did Jesus teach keeping the law to the letter? Or more a kind of following the principles of the law?

 

[Leaf473]

Paul said he was outside the Law of God, but under the Law of Christ, so he was not contrasting them, but rather he was equating them, and the Mosaic Law is the Law of God, which is the Law that Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey by word and by example.

Paul is outside the law of God? What does that mean in practice?

 

[Leaf473]

In Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the exact image of God's nature, so laws for how to act in accordance with the Father's nature are exactly the same as laws for how to act in accordance with the Son's nature.

Are you saying that Jesus wants us to show our love for him by sacrificing animals to him?

 

[Freth]

Right, the word for Fulfill has two different meanings. Possibly Jesus came to expound on the law, possibly he came to fulfill it in the sense that a prophecy is fulfilled.
______________

If someone arrives at your Christian fellowship with the skin condition described in Leviticus 13, are they asked to tear their clothes? Is that seen as an expression of love for God?

Look at the whole context in Matthew 5:17-20.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.​

​

The above statement alone solidifies the law and the prophets, as Jesus plainly states that He did not come to destroy the law and the prophets, but to fulfill, which cannot mean negate or destroy in any way.

This is even more apparent when you look at G4137 fulfil (plēroō):

1. to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
   1. to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
      1. I abound, I am liberally supplied
2. to render full, i.e. to complete
   1. to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
   2. to consummate: a number
      1. to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
      2. to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
   3. to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
      1. of matters of duty: to perform, execute
      2. of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
      3. to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

None of the above meanings negate the law, but we don't have to look at the meanings of fulfil. Jesus explains.

​

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.​

​

Not one jot or one tittle will no wise pass from the law. This statement (again) solidifies the law and the prophets—until the new heaven and new earth are made. Something that is missed here—that to fulfill the law and the prophets is not only speaking of His own work being fulfilled leading up to the new heaven and new earth, but also the patience of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), thereby fulfilling the law and the prophets. Til all be fulfilled is an all-encompassing statement.

And if it weren't clear enough already, Jesus doubles down.

​

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.​

​

This is about commandment keeping.

​

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.​

​

Conclusion

What Jesus said in Matthew 5 is multi-faceted.

• All being fulfilled is the completion of His work ending in the heaven and earth being remade.
• All being fulfilled is the completion of the law and the prophets, both the prophecies, and the law being perfected in God's people, which is pointed to in Revelation 14:12 as the patience of the saints who keep the commandments of God.
• Jesus states that the law is not destroyed. Not one jot or tittle will no wise pass from the law (and the prophets).

Therefore, there is no possible way for a Christian to say that the law and the prophets are in any way negated, when the very work of Jesus is to bring to fruition the law and the prophets completely in us, which then brings the sealing work.

Revelation 7:2-3 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.​

​

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.​

Peter said something in 2 Peter 3:9...

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

1. The Lord is not slack; i.e. His work continues.
2. Come to repentance; i.e. Come into obedience.

We know that Jesus is our mediator in heaven (1 Timothy 2:5), which points to His continuing work. Until the day the new heaven and earth are made, all is not fulfilled, there is work yet to be done. The work of Jesus continues and did not stop at the cross, so it cannot be said that the law ended at the cross, given everything presented here.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Look at the whole context in Matthew 5:17-20.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.​

​

The above statement alone solidifies the law and the prophets, as Jesus plainly states that He did not come to destroy the law and the prophets, but to fulfill, which cannot mean negate or destroy in anyway.

This is even more apparent when you look at G4137 fulfil (plēroō):

1. to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
   1. to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
      1. I abound, I am liberally supplied
2. to render full, i.e. to complete
   1. to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
   2. to consummate: a number
      1. to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
      2. to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
   3. to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
      1. of matters of duty: to perform, execute
      2. of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
      3. to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

None of the above meanings negate the law, but we don't have to look at the meanings of fulfil. Jesus explains.

​

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.​

​

Not one jot or one tittle will no wise pass from the law. This statement solidifies the law and the prophets until the new heaven and new earth are made. Something that is missed here—that to fulfill the law and the prophets is not only speaking of His own work being fulfilled leading up to the new heaven and new earth, but also the patience of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), thereby fulfilling the law and the prophets. Til all be fulfilled is an all-encompassing statement.

And if it weren't clear enough already, Jesus doubles down.

​

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.​

​

This is about commandment keeping.

​

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.​

​

Conclusion

What Jesus said in Matthew 5 is multi-faceted.

• All being fulfilled is the completion of His work ending in the heaven and earth being remade.
• All being fulfilled is the completion of the law and the prophets, both the prophecies, and the law being perfected in God's people, which is pointed to in Revelation 14:12 as the patient of the saints who keep the commandments of God.
• Jesus states that the law is not destroyed. Not one jot or tittle will no wise pass from the law (and the prophets).

Therefore, there is no possible way for a Christian to say that the law and the prophets are in any way negated, when the very work of Jesus is to bring to fruition the law and the prophets completely in us, which then brings the sealing work.

Revelation 7:2-3 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.​

​

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.​

Peter said something in 2 Peter 3:9...

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

1. The Lord is not slack; i.e. His work continues.
2. Come to repentance; i.e. Come into obedience.

Of course, we know that Jesus is our mediator in heaven, which points to His continuing work until that day the new heaven and earth are made. The work of Jesus continues and didn't stop at the cross, so it can't be said that the law ended at the cross, given everything presented here.

Excellent!

 

[Leaf473]

Look at the whole context in Matthew 5:17-20.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.​

​

The above statement alone solidifies the law and the prophets, as Jesus plainly states that He did not come to destroy the law and the prophets, but to fulfill, which cannot mean negate or destroy in anyway.

This is even more apparent when you look at G4137 fulfil (plēroō):

1. to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
   1. to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
      1. I abound, I am liberally supplied
2. to render full, i.e. to complete
   1. to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
   2. to consummate: a number
      1. to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
      2. to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
   3. to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
      1. of matters of duty: to perform, execute
      2. of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
      3. to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

None of the above meanings negate the law, but we don't have to look at the meanings of fulfil. Jesus explains.

​

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.​

​

Not one jot or one tittle will no wise pass from the law. This statement solidifies the law and the prophets until the new heaven and new earth are made. Something that is missed here—that to fulfill the law and the prophets is not only speaking of His own work being fulfilled leading up to the new heaven and new earth, but also the patience of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), thereby fulfilling the law and the prophets. Til all be fulfilled is an all-encompassing statement.

And if it weren't clear enough already, Jesus doubles down.

​

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.​

​

This is about commandment keeping.

​

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.​

​

Conclusion

What Jesus said in Matthew 5 is multi-faceted.

• All being fulfilled is the completion of His work ending in the heaven and earth being remade.
• All being fulfilled is the completion of the law and the prophets, both the prophecies, and the law being perfected in God's people, which is pointed to in Revelation 14:12 as the patient of the saints who keep the commandments of God.
• Jesus states that the law is not destroyed. Not one jot or tittle will no wise pass from the law (and the prophets).

Therefore, there is no possible way for a Christian to say that the law and the prophets are in any way negated, when the very work of Jesus is to bring to fruition the law and the prophets completely in us, which then brings the sealing work.

Revelation 7:2-3 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.​

​

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.​

Peter said something in 2 Peter 3:9...

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

1. The Lord is not slack; i.e. His work continues.
2. Come to repentance; i.e. Come into obedience.

Of course, we know that Jesus is our mediator in heaven, which points to His continuing work until that day the new heaven and earth are made. The work of Jesus continues and didn't stop at the cross, so it can't be said that the law ended at the cross, given everything presented here.

Lots of good ideas, there Based on what I remember of your past posts, you believe that we no longer need to do animal sacrifices.

Given what you said above, how could animal sacrifices not still be something we would do?

 

[GDL]

Sorry for my late response, it's been a busy couple of days.

No problem at all. Thank you for the interaction. All well-stated and understandable replies. I do also appreciate your personal insights re: Sabbath.

 

[Soyeong]

Right, the word for Fulfill has two different meanings. Possibly Jesus came to expound on the law, possibly he came to fulfill it in the sense that a prophecy is fulfilled.
______________

According to the definition of the NAS Greek Lexicon of "pleroo", it means "to carry into effect or bring to realization", so when it is in context of God's law, it refers to causing God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be, but when it is in context of the promises of God, it refers to them receiving their fulfillment. Both are referring to bringing God's will into effect, not to causing God's will to no longer be in effect.

If someone arrives at your Christian fellowship with the skin condition described in Leviticus 13, are they asked to tear their clothes? Is that seen as an expression of love for God?

During the time of Moses and Joshua, would you speak against seeing that as being an expression of love for God?

 

[Soyeong]

Would that mean that Under the law means different things in different places of Galatians?

Being under the the law varies meaning depending upon which law is being referred to.

Did Jesus teach keeping the law to the letter? Or more a kind of following the principles of the law?

That depends on what you mean by keeping the law to the letter. If it means "teaching how to correctly keep what the law instructs in accordance with its intent", then yes. If it means "teaching how to keep the law without regard to its intent", then no. The way to act in accordance with God's nature is situational, so there are times when killing someone is in accordance with His nature, such as giving the death penalty, and times when it is contrary to His nature, such as committing murder. Correctly following the principles of God's law will never lead us away from taking actions that are examples of those principle in accordance with what God's law instructs.

 

[Soyeong]

Paul is outside the law of God? What does that mean in practice?

Paul said that he was not outside of the Law of God, so what it means in practice is that he was under it and obligated to obey it.

Are you saying that Jesus wants us to show our love for him by sacrificing animals to him?

Giving God offerings is part of following His instructions for how to love Him. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus said that all of the commandments hang on the greatest two commandments, so they are all His instructions for how to love God and our neighbor.

 

[Freth]

Lots of good ideas, there Based on what I remember of your past posts, you believe that we no longer need to do animal sacrifices.

Given what you said above, how could animal sacrifices not still be something we would do?

Because we find in Colossians 2 and Hebrews 10 that Paul says all ordinances that fall under a shadow of things to come, that is, pointing to Jesus and the cross, were nailed to the cross.

Colossians 2:14, 17 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. ... Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.​

​

Hebrews 10:1, 12 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. ... But this man [Jesus], after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.​

​

The handwriting of ordinances, the sacrifices (aka "the law"; ordinances, not the Ten Commandments) which were a shadow of things to come. Sacrifices ceased as was prophesied; in the middle of the last week of the 70 week prophecy.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.​

​

NOTE: This has been covered many times in other threads.

 

[Leaf473]

According to the definition of the NAS Greek Lexicon of "pleroo", it means "to carry into effect or bring to realization", so when it is in context of God's law, it refers to causing God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be, but when it is in context of the promises of God, it refers to them receiving their fulfillment. Both are referring to bringing God's will into effect, not to causing God's will to no longer be in effect.

"...it refers to causing God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be..."

I believe you are assuming the thing you wish to demonstrate. I believe that is known as Assuming the conclusion.

 

[Leaf473]

During the time of Moses and Joshua, would you speak against seeing that as being an expression of love for God?

No, I wouldn't.

I take from the tone of your answer that you don't believe we need to follow that law carefully, to the letter, today.

If that's the case, I think we can cut to the chase: we keep the general ideas behind the law, we don't keep the letters. And I say a big Amen!

Psalm 119:97
How I love your law! It is my meditation all day.

 

[Soyeong]

Because we find in Colossians 2 and Hebrews 10 that Paul says all ordinances that fall under a shadow of things to come were nailed to the cross.

Colossians 2:14, 17 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. ... Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.​

​

Hebrews 10:1, 12 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. ... But this man [Jesus], after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.​

​

The handwriting of ordinances, the sacrifices (aka "the law"; ordinances, not the Ten Commandments) which were a shadow of things to come (point to Jesus and the cross). Sacrifices ceased as was prophesied; in the middle of the last week of the 70 week prophecy.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.​

​

NOTE: This has been covered many times in other threads.

The Greek word "dogma" is used five times by the Bible, twice in regard to the decrees of Caesar (Luke 2:1, Acts 17:7), and once in regard to the decree of the Jerusalem Council (Acts 16:4), so justification needs to be given for interpreting it in Colossians 2:14 as referring to any of the laws of God. The purpose of the brutality of crucifixion was to act as a deterrent, so the Romans wanted to make sure that everyone knew why someone was being crucified, so they would nail to someone cross a handwritten ordinance that were the charges that was against them (Matthew 27:37). This is also likely how they knew that the other two people were crucified for being thieves. So when a handwritten ordinance that listed the charges that are against us is instead nailed to Christ's cross, then this fits perfect with the concept of him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but has nothing to do with ending any of God's laws. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from any laws, but in order to free us from all lawlessness.

In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover lamb, however, instead of saying that observing Passover has now ceased, he concluded by saying that we should therefore continue to observe Passover. Foreshadows testify about what is to come and we should live in a way that testifies about what is to come by continuing to observe God's holy days rather than a way that bears false witness against what is to come, so Paul was emphasizing the importance of continuing to observe God's holy days by saying that they are foreshadows of what is to come.

 

[Leaf473]

Being under the the law varies meaning depending upon which law is being referred to.

Okay... Jesus was born under one kind of law, if we are led by the spirit we are not under a different kind of law.

That would be a place where we interpret the scriptures differently

 

[Leaf473]

That depends on what you mean by keeping the law to the letter.

Well, one example would be the clothes-tearing instruction in Leviticus 13.

Psalm 119:165
Those who love your law have great peace. Nothing causes them to stumble.

 

[Leaf473]

Paul said he was outside the Law of God, but under the Law of Christ...

Paul said that he was not outside of the Law of God, so what it means in practice is that he was under it and obligated to obey it.

Okay... Looks like maybe a typo in the earlier post, then

 

[Leaf473]

Giving God offerings is part of following His instructions for how to love Him. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus said that all of the commandments hang on the greatest two commandments, so they are all His instructions for how to love God and our neighbor.

That sounds like a Yes, Jesus does want us to show our love for him by sacrificing animals to him.

Do you believe the early Christians were going to the temple on a regular basis and offering animals?

 

[Soyeong]

"...it refers to causing God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be..."

I believe you are assuming the thing you wish to demonstrate. I believe that is known as Assuming the conclusion.

"Pleroo" has a range of meanings, though the NAS Greek Lexicon has one definition that is specifically in regard to what it means to fulfill the law, so I don't think that it is assuming anything to say that we should use that definition when discussing what it means to fulfill the law, especially when that definition fits with what Jesus immediately proceeded to do next after he said that he came to fulfill the law, it fits with how other verses use the word, and it fits with how other Jewish writings us the word, while other definitions of "pleroo" are contrary to how Jesus used the word or how it is used in other verses, and would mean that Jesus was a liar and a false prophet.