Are we subject to the Old Covenant today?

Lulav

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Why would he? It was a commemoration of the day he finished creation. That is still very important to recognize and point to him, why can't you see that?
Moving the goalposts.

I have no idea what that even means. You need to explain that and how it has anything to do with what I said there.
Let's recap. You posted this:

why don't you explain why Yeshua would call himself the 'Lord of the Sabbath' and then disannul it? Can you do that?

The essence of your question, at least as written, is that it seems contradictory to you that Jesus could be lord of the Sabbath and yet annul it. I simply pointed out there is no such contradiction - if you are lord of th Sabbath and do not have the power to retire it, your power over it is indeed limited. Hence you are not truly lord.
Yes, it is contradictory as well as demeaning himself. As he used all kinds of ways to show he was indeed God, doing what you said he did would prove otherwise.

I never said he did not have power but it would be like the Pharisees accused him of exorcising demons bybeelzabub - House divided.

Apparently you are using your definition of what makes him Lord by your reasoning.
He would not be obeying his Fathers will if he destroyed his Holy Day, that is something the UNholy one would do.

Now you artfully evade the problem with your first claim and now wish to assert that Jesus would never decide to "retire" an observance of His act of creation. Well, where is your argument?
I did not say he would never decide, that is for him but I find no credible witness to that. As I said to 'Doug' if the Sabbath was annulled, then why warn his disciples to hope the things he told them didn't happen on a Sabbath? And not only that but to Pray to God that they didn't happen on that day.

I don't recall them arguing with him saying, 'Well once you die then there will be no Sabbath, right?"
That would be absurd.
It would seem obvious that if, for example, Jesus is initiating a new act of creation (this is not an "if" by the way, it is Biblical fact), it makes perfectly good conceptual sense to retire the observance of the first act of creation.
I agree with you to a point. Yes there are promises of a new heaven and new earth, however that time has not come yet. See Rev 21 and Peter said - "Nevertheless we, (according to his promise), look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

They were looking forward, it hadn't happened yet. So no need for a 'New' Sabbath.
Evidence? And even if this is a standard practice, it in no way constrains Jesus from not following this practice.
I gave you two men to look into, King Ahasuerus and King Herod.
 
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Guojing

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Certainly by the time of Paul’s writings since he writes so extensively on the subject. The rest of the Apostles appear to have known some of the changes from as early as Pentecost. But many of the Jews resisted changing because their traditions were so firmly established in their culture. But some things do not appear to have been revealed to them until later, like the ending of the dietary restrictions which was revealed when Peter was sent to Cornelius.

So when Acts 21:18-25 happened, you believe James and the elders already knew that "The Law of Moses has passed for everyone" but wanted Paul to put on a false impression to others that Paul is still obeying the Law?

Do you really think that was their intent?
 
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Doug Brents

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So when Acts 21:18-25 happened, you believe James and the elders already knew that "The Law of Moses has passed for everyone" but wanted Paul to put on a false impression to others that Paul is still obeying the Law?

Do you really think that was their intent?
No. I think their intent was to not spit on the Jewish traditions so that they could win converts to Christ. The Jews would not listen to the Christians if they were living as Gentiles, spurning the Jewish traditions. That is why Paul said, “For though I am free from all people, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may gain more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might gain Jews; to those who are under the Law, I became as one under the Law, though not being under the Law myself, so that I might gain those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without the Law, I became as one without the Law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might gain those who are without the Law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak; I have become all things to all people, so that I may by all means save some.
 
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Guojing

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No. I think their intent was to not spit on the Jewish traditions so that they could win converts to Christ. The Jews would not listen to the Christians if they were living as Gentiles, spurning the Jewish traditions. That is why Paul said, “For though I am free from all people, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may gain more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might gain Jews; to those who are under the Law, I became as one under the Law, though not being under the Law myself, so that I might gain those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without the Law, I became as one without the Law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might gain those who are without the Law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak; I have become all things to all people, so that I may by all means save some.

People always quote this particular passage from Paul, when I ask them the intent of James and the elders.

So you are assuming that James and the elders are thinking exactly what Paul was saying there?
 
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Cornelius8L

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How do prayers become 'incense'? It is the same thing basically.

Rev 5:8 When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Psalm 141:2
May you accept my prayer like incense, my uplifted hands like the evening offering.
You made a good point. So, if both prayers and incense are in the OT, why do only prayers remain in the NT?
 
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Doug Brents

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People always quote this particular passage from Paul, when I ask them the intent of James and the elders.

So you are assuming that James and the elders are thinking exactly what Paul was saying there?
In this instance, yes. They were doing all they could to avoid offending those to whom they were attempting to witness for Christ. There is absolutely nothing wrong with keeping the traditions of the Law so that you can witness to those who think they are under the Law. But, as Paul said in the passage quoted above, knowing that you are not under the Law but under Christ.
 
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safswan

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I think that God made the unclean animals clean and then told Peter to eat these animals that were once unclean. Your point of view is that God showed Peter both clean and unclean animals, but only asked Peter to eat the clean animal and never asked Peter to eat the unclean animal. Have I got that right?

Then, the problem comes up when Acts 11:1-3 'The apostles and brothers throughout Judea soon heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers took issue with him and said, “You visited uncircumcised men and ate with them.”' Because “You know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with a foreigner or visit him.” (Acts 10:28) And Jesus agreed with this idea when He was on earth, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” (Matt 15:26) - pointing at the Canaanite woman. In Acts 11, Peter told what he saw in the vision. “When they heard this, their objections were put to rest, and they glorified God, saying, ‘So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.’” (Acts 11:18)

So, if the vision was just telling Peter to eat the clean ones, even though both clean and unclean ones were there, who do the unclean ones in the vision represent? But in the Bible, we know the circumcised men always think of the gentiles as unclean. Peter talked about the whole vision again in Acts 11. He said that he knew God was pointing to the unclean animal.

This passage also tells us that we can now eat animals that were once considered unclean. But I think it would be easier for me to know if you think it's okay to eat the unclean animal today. Because if you believe we can't eat unclean animals, you won't accept that God was pointing to the unclean animals in this event because that would go against what you believe. (By the way, this is not the only event that tells us that we can eat all animals.)

And we should think about whether we are defending the doctrines of our denomination or the Bible. Also, I don't think any religious group needs to set doctrines to begin with, since we all believe the Bible. Doctrines are made IMAGE of the Bible, but it could be set up wrong if the early members or founders misread the Bible.
This passage also tells us that we can now eat animals that were once considered unclean. But I think it would be easier for me to know if you think it's okay to eat the unclean animal today. Because if you believe we can't eat unclean animals, you won't accept that God was pointing to the unclean animals in this event because that would go against what you believe. (By the way, this is not the only event that tells us that we can eat all animals.)

And we should think about whether we are defending the doctrines of our denomination or the Bible. Also, I don't think any religious group needs to set doctrines to begin with, since we all believe the Bible. Doctrines are made IMAGE of the Bible, but it could be set up wrong if the early members or founders misread the Bible.
CLEAN OR UNCLEAN? - Part 1

Are Christians obliged to make a distinction between clean or unclean animals, or can we eat anything because "Nothing is unclean"? This is a topic which causes much controversy and in this presentation, I will discuss, primarily, Biblical facts in order to determine the true position we as Christians should take.


The dispute over what is good for food is primarily caused by a misunderstanding of statements made by Paul in some of his epistles, and many persons have misinterpreted his writings. However, in concluding one of his responses to a food dispute he says:

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."[Romans 15:4]

In II Timothy 2:15 He also says; "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Therefore we will search the scriptures (The word of truth) to learn what foods should be eaten and to see God's response to how we have acted upon what has been taught. The passages in the New Testament, which cause many to be in error (through misinterpretation) and, which also are the main sources of the controversy, will be discussed and I pray earnestly that the Holy Spirit will open your understanding to these facts.

Man (NB Not Israel) was given his original diet as is seen in Genesis 1:29, and Genesis 3:18, and this consisted of fruits, nuts, grains and vegetables (herbs). This was the prescribed food for man until the flood [Genesis 7:6]. After the flood Noah was allowed to eat the flesh of animals as well as herbs.[Genesis 9:31]. Note that Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean beasts.[Genesis7:2-9] Hence this command to eat of every moving thing is directed to the animals which are designated as clean beasts. Also for Noah to use the animals for food just he did with the herbs means there must have been conditions for the animals even as there were conditions for the herbs:


Genesis 2:
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.


Genesis 9:
3Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Adam was not to eat every single green herb but the green herbs to be eaten were specified and Noah knew the specifications of the clean animals and it is all of these that he should eat.

(This also is proof that many of the things recorded by Moses later on, in the law, was already known to men before the formation of the nation or Israel.) Read what Noah was told to do:

Genesis 7:
2Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

He was the one who selected the animals. It is therefore misleading to say he had no knowledge of the difference between the clean and unclean animals. Noah was also instructed to abstain from the blood of these animals.[Genesis 9:4]

Moses when he wrote the law, documented the method to differentiate between the clean and unclean animals and also gave other restrictions regarding the blood of animals and animals which died of itself. [See Leviticus 11; Deuteronomy 14:3-21; Leviticus 7:22-27;17:10-14;Deuteronomy 12:16,23]. This was given to Israel as a guide to maintain their health and since we are made up of the same flesh and bones as they, these guidelines should be applicable to us also. The reason given to Israel for these guidelines was:

"For thou art an Holy People unto the Lord thy God, and Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth. Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing " [Deuteronomy 14:2-3;See also Leviticus 11:45-47;19:25]. Similar sentiments are expressed by the apostles in the following passages:

[I Peter 2:9; I Peter 1:15-16; Romans 12:1; I Corinthians 6:19-20; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; II Corinthians 6:17]

From these passages we see that our body's health is of great importance to God and he wishes for us to keep them in good condition and many persons in realizing this will refrain from doing things which are injurious to their health. They will avoid; smoking, addictive drugs, alcoholic beverages, tattooing of the body, processing of the hair and of late consumption of animal fats which has been shown, by doctors and scientists, to be the cause of illnesses like Diabetes, Hypertension, Heart disease, High cholesterol levels and Cancers among others. It is to be noted that the scriptures do not give explicit directions about some of these practices, but the principles forbidding them are clear.

These same persons however, will not accept the clear directions given by God to avoid eating of animals which were not made for that purpose. They say Jesus came and made all things clean or that Paul has declared all things are clean and hence there are no more unclean animals. The contradiction exhibited by these persons is further compounded by those who will eat of certain unclean animals but detest other animals in the same category. They will gladly eat of the swine, crab, lobster and shrimp, but would "kill" if given a meal of dog or rat, although the dog and the rat are in the same category as the others. They will quite explicitly state how detestable the dog is as food but quite happily consume the swine and others which should be equally detestable.


To be continued.
 
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Leaf473

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CLEAN OR UNCLEAN? - Part 1

Are Christians obliged to make a distinction between clean or unclean animals, or can we eat anything because "Nothing is unclean"? This is a topic which causes much controversy and in this presentation, I will discuss, primarily, Biblical facts in order to determine the true position we as Christians should take.


The dispute over what is good for food is primarily caused by a misunderstanding of statements made by Paul in some of his epistles, and many persons have misinterpreted his writings. However, in concluding one of his responses to a food dispute he says:

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."[Romans 15:4]

In II Timothy 2:15 He also says; "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Therefore we will search the scriptures (The word of truth) to learn what foods should be eaten and to see God's response to how we have acted upon what has been taught. The passages in the New Testament, which cause many to be in error (through misinterpretation) and, which also are the main sources of the controversy, will be discussed and I pray earnestly that the Holy Spirit will open your understanding to these facts.

Man (NB Not Israel) was given his original diet as is seen in Genesis 1:29, and Genesis 3:18, and this consisted of fruits, nuts, grains and vegetables (herbs). This was the prescribed food for man until the flood [Genesis 7:6]. After the flood Noah was allowed to eat the flesh of animals as well as herbs.[Genesis 9:31]. Note that Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean beasts.[Genesis7:2-9] Hence this command to eat of every moving thing is directed to the animals which are designated as clean beasts. Also for Noah to use the animals for food just he did with the herbs means there must have been conditions for the animals even as there were conditions for the herbs:


Genesis 2:
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.


Genesis 9:
3Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Adam was not to eat every single green herb but the green herbs to be eaten were specified and Noah knew the specifications of the clean animals and it is all of these that he should eat.

(This also is proof that many of the things recorded by Moses later on, in the law, was already known to men before the formation of the nation or Israel.) Read what Noah was told to do:

Genesis 7:
2Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

He was the one who selected the animals. It is therefore misleading to say he had no knowledge of the difference between the clean and unclean animals. Noah was also instructed to abstain from the blood of these animals.[Genesis 9:4]

Moses when he wrote the law, documented the method to differentiate between the clean and unclean animals and also gave other restrictions regarding the blood of animals and animals which died of itself. [See Leviticus 11; Deuteronomy 14:3-21; Leviticus 7:22-27;17:10-14;Deuteronomy 12:16,23]. This was given to Israel as a guide to maintain their health and since we are made up of the same flesh and bones as they, these guidelines should be applicable to us also. The reason given to Israel for these guidelines was:

"For thou art an Holy People unto the Lord thy God, and Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth. Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing " [Deuteronomy 14:2-3;See also Leviticus 11:45-47;19:25]. Similar sentiments are expressed by the apostles in the following passages:

[I Peter 2:9; I Peter 1:15-16; Romans 12:1; I Corinthians 6:19-20; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; II Corinthians 6:17]

From these passages we see that our body's health is of great importance to God and he wishes for us to keep them in good condition and many persons in realizing this will refrain from doing things which are injurious to their health. They will avoid; smoking, addictive drugs, alcoholic beverages, tattooing of the body, processing of the hair and of late consumption of animal fats which has been shown, by doctors and scientists, to be the cause of illnesses like Diabetes, Hypertension, Heart disease, High cholesterol levels and Cancers among others. It is to be noted that the scriptures do not give explicit directions about some of these practices, but the principles forbidding them are clear.

These same persons however, will not accept the clear directions given by God to avoid eating of animals which were not made for that purpose. They say Jesus came and made all things clean or that Paul has declared all things are clean and hence there are no more unclean animals. The contradiction exhibited by these persons is further compounded by those who will eat of certain unclean animals but detest other animals in the same category. They will gladly eat of the swine, crab, lobster and shrimp, but would "kill" if given a meal of dog or rat, although the dog and the rat are in the same category as the others. They will quite explicitly state how detestable the dog is as food but quite happily consume the swine and others which should be equally detestable.


To be continued.
Hi safswan,

I'm looking forward to when you have time to continue :)

I'm interested in hearing your take on this,
"Give for gifts to the needy those things which are within, and check it out, all things will be clean to you."
Luke 11
 
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Lulav

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No. There is no indication in Scripture that Cornelius went to the synagogue or kept the sabbath. He did pray to God, and give alms, but he was not a proselyte.
Then answer this:

1. How did Cornelius find out about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?
2. If he was praying and giving alms then it most likely had to be at the temple. There was a large area the Gentiles could go to for these things.
3. He learned what was righteous before God by going to the synagogue which did allow for gentiles to come in and learn.


No, the things Jesus said are not part of the Old Covenant, but of the New.

Matt 5 - 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ EXODUS 20:13 Old Covenant Commandment

22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. ----NEW Covenant Definition

Matthew 5 - 27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ EXODUS 20:14 Old Covenant Commandment

28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.


Shall I go on?

I believe that God’s revelation of the New Covenant was still progressing. Peter did not know yet that God had made all things clean. This was as much a revelation to him as it is to you.

Oh, now it's progressive? I though it was said here that it happened at the cross?

Hmm, Peter did not know it? was he not there that day they were accused by the Pharisees of eating with unwashed hands?

Peter whom Yeshua said he would build his 'church' upon wasn't privy to this?

Tell me how does God make a man clean? Does he change him biologically from whence he was created?
 
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Lulav

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You made a good point. So, if both prayers and incense are in the OT, why do only prayers remain in the NT?
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. 7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and they were both well advanced in years.

8 So it was, that while he was serving as priest before God in the order of his division, 9 according to the custom of the priesthood,his lot fell to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord. 10 And the whole multitude of the people was praying outside at the hour of incense. 11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing on the right side of the altar of incense. 12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.

13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. - Luke 1

--------------------------------------


Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. - Rev - New Covenant
 
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safswan

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CLEAN OR UNCLEAN? - Part 1

Are Christians obliged to make a distinction between clean or unclean animals, or can we eat anything because "Nothing is unclean"? This is a topic which causes much controversy and in this presentation, I will discuss, primarily, Biblical facts in order to determine the true position we as Christians should take.


The dispute over what is good for food is primarily caused by a misunderstanding of statements made by Paul in some of his epistles, and many persons have misinterpreted his writings. However, in concluding one of his responses to a food dispute he says:

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."[Romans 15:4]

In II Timothy 2:15 He also says; "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Therefore we will search the scriptures (The word of truth) to learn what foods should be eaten and to see God's response to how we have acted upon what has been taught. The passages in the New Testament, which cause many to be in error (through misinterpretation) and, which also are the main sources of the controversy, will be discussed and I pray earnestly that the Holy Spirit will open your understanding to these facts.

Man (NB Not Israel) was given his original diet as is seen in Genesis 1:29, and Genesis 3:18, and this consisted of fruits, nuts, grains and vegetables (herbs). This was the prescribed food for man until the flood [Genesis 7:6]. After the flood Noah was allowed to eat the flesh of animals as well as herbs.[Genesis 9:31]. Note that Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean beasts.[Genesis7:2-9] Hence this command to eat of every moving thing is directed to the animals which are designated as clean beasts. Also for Noah to use the animals for food just he did with the herbs means there must have been conditions for the animals even as there were conditions for the herbs:


Genesis 2:
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.


Genesis 9:
3Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Adam was not to eat every single green herb but the green herbs to be eaten were specified and Noah knew the specifications of the clean animals and it is all of these that he should eat.

(This also is proof that many of the things recorded by Moses later on, in the law, was already known to men before the formation of the nation or Israel.) Read what Noah was told to do:

Genesis 7:
2Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

He was the one who selected the animals. It is therefore misleading to say he had no knowledge of the difference between the clean and unclean animals. Noah was also instructed to abstain from the blood of these animals.[Genesis 9:4]

Moses when he wrote the law, documented the method to differentiate between the clean and unclean animals and also gave other restrictions regarding the blood of animals and animals which died of itself. [See Leviticus 11; Deuteronomy 14:3-21; Leviticus 7:22-27;17:10-14;Deuteronomy 12:16,23]. This was given to Israel as a guide to maintain their health and since we are made up of the same flesh and bones as they, these guidelines should be applicable to us also. The reason given to Israel for these guidelines was:

"For thou art an Holy People unto the Lord thy God, and Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth. Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing " [Deuteronomy 14:2-3;See also Leviticus 11:45-47;19:25]. Similar sentiments are expressed by the apostles in the following passages:

[I Peter 2:9; I Peter 1:15-16; Romans 12:1; I Corinthians 6:19-20; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; II Corinthians 6:17]

From these passages we see that our body's health is of great importance to God and he wishes for us to keep them in good condition and many persons in realizing this will refrain from doing things which are injurious to their health. They will avoid; smoking, addictive drugs, alcoholic beverages, tattooing of the body, processing of the hair and of late consumption of animal fats which has been shown, by doctors and scientists, to be the cause of illnesses like Diabetes, Hypertension, Heart disease, High cholesterol levels and Cancers among others. It is to be noted that the scriptures do not give explicit directions about some of these practices, but the principles forbidding them are clear.

These same persons however, will not accept the clear directions given by God to avoid eating of animals which were not made for that purpose. They say Jesus came and made all things clean or that Paul has declared all things are clean and hence there are no more unclean animals. The contradiction exhibited by these persons is further compounded by those who will eat of certain unclean animals but detest other animals in the same category. They will gladly eat of the swine, crab, lobster and shrimp, but would "kill" if given a meal of dog or rat, although the dog and the rat are in the same category as the others. They will quite explicitly state how detestable the dog is as food but quite happily consume the swine and others which should be equally detestable.


To be continued.


CLEAN OR UNCLEAN? - Part 2

Many persons, however, will say that Jesus declared all unclean animals as clean, in his discourse with the Pharisees as is found in Mark 7 and Matthew 15, by saying:

"Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man....but those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart and they defile the man." [Matt.I5:11,18]

Some new versions even add that in saying so, he declared that all foods were fit to be eaten [See, Mark 7 in Revised Standard Version, The New English Bible, Good News Bible.]

To understand this incident we must first recognize that this incident was in parable form and we must seek the point of the discourse rather than the surrounding incidents. [Matthew 15:15; Mark 7:17] The aim of Jesus is to let the Pharisees understand what is the source of sin, not what is or is not sin. This is more clearly seen in a similar, if not the same, incident recorded in Luke 11:37-42, where he rebuked the Pharisees for making only the outside free from dirt (clean) but the inside (heart); "Is full of ravening and wickedness." He encouraged them to make the heart clean and all would be clean (verse 41) and to be concerned about both areas not just outward appearances.[Luke 11:42]

Luke 11:
37And as he spake, a certain Pharisee besought him to dine with him: and he went in, and sat down to meat.
38And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner.
39And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.
40Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?

The other passages also had a similar sentiment and was not concerned about the food being eaten but with the fact that Jesus was eating without washing the dirt off His hands.


Matthew 15:
1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

Mark 7:
1Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
2And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

Hence, what Jesus is saying is that; the source of sin is in the heart and that dirty hands does not make the heart dirty, because this dirt is passed out into the draught (excrement), but it is the "dirt" in the heart which causes sin. This is echoed and is more easily understood in James 1:14-17:

"But everyman is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin, and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

So also, it is the lust for the unclean animals which is the source of the defilement which occurs when they are eaten. Dirt in the incident is used in parable form to denote sin or sinful desires and it is to be noted that the incident makes no mention of clean or unclean animals.

If Jesus had meant that nothing which goes into the body does not affect it, then we could all smoke, consume alcohol liberally, use addictive drugs, consume animal fats liberally, without them affecting the body or mind in any way and also consume unclean animals without them affecting the body or mind.

However, other passages in Acts of the Apostles and Revelation prove that this is not so.

In Acts 10 and Acts 11 is contained another event which some use, to say that God had declared all animals fit for food. [Acts10:11-13] But the response of Peter is most enlightening. He says:

"..Not so Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean." [Acts 10:14]

This response shows that before Jesus came, while he was on earth and after he had ascended, Peter still had not eaten of any unclean animals and still had a strong aversion to doing so. He was also uncertain about the meaning of the vision, which he should not have been, had Jesus declared all animals clean. [Acts 10:17] It was the arrival of the men from Cornelius and their story which allowed Peter to understand the meaning of the vision:

"And he said unto them; ye know how it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." [Acts 10:28; Acts 11:18]

Hence in this vision the beasts represented people from all the nations of the earth whom God had called to partake of the promise of life for those who will repent and believe on Jesus, just as was promised. [See,Isaiah 55:5-7; Amos 9:11-12; Isaiah 19:20-23; Jeremiah 12:14-17.]

The other passage which confirms that animals were still classified as being clean or unclean, after Jesus' sojourn on earth, is found in Revelation 18:1-2, in which an Angel is describing the state of "Babylon the Great." The fact that the Angel uses the term "Unclean and hateful bird" shows that animals are still to be classified as clean and unclean, whatever this bird may mean or symbolize. It is to be noted that the purpose of Jesus' sojourn on earth was to sanctify man and not the unclean animals. [Titus 2:13-14; I Timothy 1:15; Luke 19:10]. The animals fit for food had already been set apart by God [Leviticus 11; Deuteronomy 14.]

In Acts 15;20, we see the Gentiles, who had turned to God, being directed, by the apostles, to be careful about what they eat. They should not eat of that which had been offered to idols, animals which had been strangled, (or died of itself) and to abstain from blood. If we could eat anything then they would not have been given these instructions. In fact these instructions are found in Leviticus 17: 13-16 and were given after it was known which animals could be eaten.

Hence these instructions which were taken from the law [See Acts 15;21] and which came after it was known which animals were fit to be eaten, must also have been given after the Gentiles had knowledge of what is fit to be eaten. The prophecy of the Gentiles being called to serve God, in Jeremiah 12:14-17, also shows that they are called to learn the righteous ways of Israel, not some new way or to come with their own ways. It is to be noted that these instruction about what to eat, given by the apostles, are not widely observed by Christians since they, in error, say; "Nothing you eat will defile you", contrary to the Apostles instructions. Note that Gentiles were exposed to the teaching of the law and prophets:

Acts 15:
21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Acts 14:
1And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.

I could stop here and hope that it would be clear to all that we are still required to make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and that not everything is fit to be eaten. However, those who strongly propose the view that "nothing is unclean" would still be clinging to some of the writings of Paul, which through wrong interpretation cause many to be in error, [II Peter 3; 15-17] and which are used to justify their position. I will attempt to make these passages more clear and I pray, the Holy Spirit may give you the understanding needed to receive the explanations.

To be continued.

P.S. Comments like that below, is completely discredited by what the scriptures show of the encounter, which many use to say, Jesus declared all foods to be clean.If Jesus had declared all foods clean, then Peter was there to hear. Jesus obviously did not, and so nothing persons who reason like this, say, should be taken seriously. They merely come up with arguments to support their positions in the heat of the moment.


"I believe that God’s revelation of the New Covenant was still progressing. Peter did not know yet that God had made all things clean. This was as much a revelation to him as it is to you."
 
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safswan

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Hi safswan,

I'm looking forward to when you have time to continue :)

I'm interested in hearing your take on this,
"Give for gifts to the needy those things which are within, and check it out, all things will be clean to you."
Luke 11
Hello,

Would have posted it from last evening but the site seemed to be down. I am not sure I addressed that verse specifically but the sentiment was addressed.
 
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Lulav

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God CAN make changes to His law! You are correct, we are not allowed to change His law, but He can. And He told us that He did, many times. The fact that you refuse to see it is the issue.
"My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips."
 
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Lulav

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There is none righteous, no not even one.
Misquoted.

A misquote from the Psalms of David, speaking of fools, ATHEISTS --Here's the whole thing

To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.​

14 The fool has said in his heart,
There is no God.”
They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.


2 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.



LUKE 1 --

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus came to save everyone, but His statement you alluded to above was aimed at the Pharisees. They didn’t think they were sinners.
They were keeping their own laws, making them up putting aside those of the Lord God - sounds familiar...
 
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Lulav

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You are correct, Paul does not say “do not take God's name in vain”. But he, like Christ, makes it even stronger when he says, “Do not let any unwholesome parachute come from your lips “
Can you please give me a Book, chapter and verse as I've never read that before.
 
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Guojing

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In this instance, yes. They were doing all they could to avoid offending those to whom they were attempting to witness for Christ. There is absolutely nothing wrong with keeping the traditions of the Law so that you can witness to those who think they are under the Law. But, as Paul said in the passage quoted above, knowing that you are not under the Law but under Christ.

I see, so you assumed James and Paul are "of one mind" with regards to the Law of Moses in Acts 21:18-25.

Alright, thanks for sharing that.
 
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Doug Brents

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Then answer this:

1. How did Cornelius find out about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?
He lived near the Jews, who lived out God’s commands. He couldn’t help know about the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
2. If he was praying and giving alms then it most likely had to be at the temple. There was a large area the Gentiles could go to for these things.
Possibly, but not very likely. The Temple was in Jerusalem. But Cornelius live in Caesarea, which stands quite a distance north of the Sea of Galilee.
3. He learned what was righteous before God by going to the synagogue which did allow for gentiles to come in and learn.
Again possibly, but not necessarily. It appears that God also spoke directly to him.
Matt 5 - 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ EXODUS 20:13 Old Covenant Commandment

22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. ----NEW Covenant Definition

Matthew 5 - 27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ EXODUS 20:14 Old Covenant Commandment

28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.


Shall I go on?
You may, but I don’t see why. You are correct that He referred to things from the OT, but that was not His point. His point was the new interpretation of these OT passages into NT commands.
Oh, now it's progressive? I thought it was said here that it happened at the cross?
Everything changed at the cross, but not all the changes were revealed immediately to the disciples, not even to the Apostles. There are things, like the dietary laws, that don’t appear to have been revealed to them until much later.
Peter whom Yeshua said he would build his 'church' upon wasn't privy to this?
Peter is NOT who/what Jesus said He would build the Church upon. Greek petros means the small loose stone (maybe a small bolder). Petra means the mountain of stone (stone that is not separated from the Earth). Jesus said Simon was petros, and on this petra He would build the Church. The petra is the confession given by Simon Petros that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God. It was a play on words.
Tell me how does God make a man clean? Does he change him biologically from whence he was created?
Biology is meaningless to God. It is spiritual cleanness that matters to God. That is one of the reasons that what goes into a man (foods) does not make him unclean. But what comes out of him (from his heart/spirit) make him unclean.
 
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Doug Brents

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I see, so you assumed James and Paul are "of one mind" with regards to the Law of Moses in Acts 21:18-25.

Alright, thanks for sharing that.
The same God inspired them all to write His words down on paper. God is of one mind, so He would fill His writers with one mind.
 
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Doug Brents

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"My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips."
Let’s not take passages out of context just because the words say what we need to make a point.
“If his sons abandon My Law
And do not walk in My judgments,
31 If they violate My statutes
And do not keep My commandments,
32 Then I will punish their wrongdoing with the rod,
And their guilt with afflictions.
33 But I will not withhold My favor from him,
Nor deal falsely in My faithfulness.
34 I will not violate My covenant,
Nor will I alter the utterance of My lips.

35 Once I have sworn by My holiness;
I will not lie to David.
36 His descendants shall endure forever,
And his throne as the sun before Me.
37 It shall be established forever like the moon,
And a witness in the sky is faithful.

This is the path God will not change. And it was fulfilled in Jesus, as He is the King in the line of Davis who will reign forever on the Throne in Heaven!
 
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