Those who believe the perfect in 1 Cor 13:10 refers to the 2nd coming...

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So when we see Christ face to face, do you think we still need to have hope?

Simple answer: No. If what we are hoping for has become a reality, we obviously don't need hope any more. I have hope that I will be resurrected to be with the Lord one day, and when that happens my hope will be fulfilled, so that I won't need to hope for what I then have in reality.

 

[Guojing]

Simple answer: No. If what we are hoping for has become a reality, we obviously don't need hope any more. I have hope that I will be resurrected to be with the Lord one day, and when that happens my hope will be fulfilled, so that I won't need to hope for what I then have in reality.

So when you see how Paul moved from 1 Corinthians 13:8 to 1 Corinthians 13:13, you still cannot see that there will be a period of time where

1. Faith, hope and charity still abide.
2. But tongues, prophecies and word of knowledge all fail/vanish/cease?

How else would you understand those 2 verses?

 

[biblelesson]

So when we see Christ face to face, do you think we still need to have hope?

This hope is not man hoping for something or to see someone. This hope relates to the hope given by God manifesting peace and Joy in Christ, that we may abound in hope, Romans 15:13, and abound more and more to be built us in Christ bringing forth the fruits He desires. At this stage of the Christian’s life, they cannot be defeated. At this stage they see the true revelation of Christ - God’s Shekinah Glory where He and Jesus will come and sup with you.

​

 

[biblelesson]

We don't see Christ face to face at all. We see Him through our faith in God's Word about Him. Moses was the only person in history who fellowshipped with God face to face as a man with his friend. This is why when Moses came from the presence of God from the mountain, and when he came out of the tabernacle, his face shone with the glory of God to such an extent that he needed to wear a veil. If it was true that we fellowship with Christ face to face, our faces would shine with the glory of God as well. But they don't. John encountered Christ in person in Revelation and fell at HIs feet as if dead. I don't know where you get the notion that you can fellowship with Christ face to face, but it doesn't come from the Bible.

I have seen Christ face to face!

 

[biblelesson]

We don't see Christ face to face at all. We see Him through our faith in God's Word about Him. Moses was the only person in history who fellowshipped with God face to face as a man with his friend. This is why when Moses came from the presence of God from the mountain, and when he came out of the tabernacle, his face shone with the glory of God to such an extent that he needed to wear a veil. If it was true that we fellowship with Christ face to face, our faces would shine with the glory of God as well. But they don't. John encountered Christ in person in Revelation and fell at HIs feet as if dead. I don't know where you get the notion that you can fellowship with Christ face to face, but it doesn't come from the Bible.

Our face shine through the Holy Spirit when we experience God’s Shekinah Glory. Not as Moses but the experience is so magnificent and glorious I would be unable to explain to a person who has never experienced God’s Glory pouring down on them. It’s not of this earthly realm. Only those who have experienced it will know.

 

[Carl Emerson]

You are following what Paul is saying Philippians 4:6-7 and Philippians 2

25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellow soldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.

26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.

27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

28 I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful.

29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation:

30 Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.

If you read what Paul is saying here, Paul made his request to God for healing, God had mercy and Epaphroditus survived.

But if you notice the word "carefully" in vs 28, Epaphroditus may still be sick, but he is well enough to travel to meet fellow believers, he must be sent carefully.

So the moral of the story is, healing now is very different from the miracle handkerchiefs that Paul himself used before Acts 28 for healing.

Now, complete healing may or may not take place, and the sickness can return at anytime. Those outcomes have nothing to do with the lack of faith in a believer.

So how dramatic does an event have to be to qualify as a gift operating?

Or does theology dictate that it cant happen so nothing will qualify...

The most dramatic events I have witnessed have involved being guided to a particular need at a particular time - sometimes a complete stranger.

Instant healing - I am blown away by what He does.

At the end of the day I don't care much about the theology of it as long as I am obedient to Him and give Him glory for what He does. (which isn't hard by the way - I get blown away when He moves)

So my main reason for being here is to encourage others to enjoy the amazing events I have had the privilege to see.

I might add that I am deep in scripture and have been for years, but my main aim is to see spiritual fruit and encourage others likewise.

 

[Butch5]

The elephant in the room is that the word for "tongues" could also refer to normal languages and not the gift of tongues. Also, the word "prophecy" means to "speak forth", which could also apply equally to preaching and may not refer to the gift of prophecy as outlined in 1 Corinthians 12. Therefore an applicable reading of the verse could quite accurately say that when perfection (the glorification of the bride of Christ) comes where there is direct fellowship with Christ, the need for world languages and preaching would no longer be needed and would cease. This is because every resurrected and glorified believer in heaven will have one language, and everything we need to know will come directly from the Lord Jesus Christ.

When Paul says, "Now remains faith, hope, and love" he is talking about the present state of believers in the Church Age, and not at some time in the future after Jesus comes again. After all the saints are resurrected to glory and are having direct fellowship with the Lord, faith and hope will no longer be needed and will not exist in heaven, but love will, because God is love and we will continue to walk in love to the Father and the Son.

To say that perfection equates to Christian maturity is total nonsense. Our present church is nowhere near any form of maturity. In fact it has so regressed over the centuries, that it is nowhere near what the early church was, and at that time, Paul said that it still needed to come to maturity. So it is quite right to say that true maturity will come when the saints are resurrected to glory when we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, where our mortality will be transformed to immortality.

I read your paper on the gifts of the Spirit and I am not convinced. It seems that you have cobbled a few OT Scriptures together to fit your predetermined premise, but I am confused about what that actually is, because you have not made that clear.

What you've presented above doesn't fit with what Paul said.

21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 14:20–22.

Paul says, "in the law it is written". He's alluding back to Isaiah 28.

For with stammering lips and another tongue
Will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said,
This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest;
And this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them
Precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
Line upon line, line upon line;
Here a little, and there a little;
That they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,
And snared, and taken.

14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men,
That rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death,
And with hell are we at agreement;


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Is 28:11–15.

Isaiah makes it clear that God is addressing the leadership of the Jews in Jerusalem. When Paul says tongues are for a sign to the unbelievers, he means the unbelieving Jews. We saw the tongues he spoke of established on Pentecost. The disciples spoke in foreign languages they did not know. I think it's pretty clear that this is the gift of tongues.

How do you tell what is a gift and what is just God doing His thing in response to prayer???

I believe it's all God's doing. I don't believe the gifts of the first century are active today.

 

[Carl Emerson]

What you've presented above doesn't fit with what Paul said.

21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 14:20–22.

Paul says, "in the law it is written". He's alluding back to Isaiah 28.

For with stammering lips and another tongue
Will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said,
This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest;
And this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them
Precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
Line upon line, line upon line;
Here a little, and there a little;
That they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,
And snared, and taken.

14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men,
That rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death,
And with hell are we at agreement;


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Is 28:11–15.

Isaiah makes it clear that God is addressing the leadership of the Jews in Jerusalem. When Paul says tongues are for a sign to the unbelievers, he means the unbelieving Jews. We saw the tongues he spoke of established on Pentecost. The disciples spoke in foreign languages they did not know. I think it's pretty clear that this is the gift of tongues.

I believe it's all God's doing. I don't believe the gifts of the first century are active today.

So if God is still doing stuff why all the fuss about how ?

Don't we want to be part of it ???

 

[Guojing]

So how dramatic does an event have to be to qualify as a gift operating?

Or does theology dictate that it cant happen so nothing will qualify...

The most dramatic events I have witnessed have involved being guided to a particular need at a particular time - sometimes a complete stranger.

Instant healing - I am blown away by what He does.

At the end of the day I don't care much about the theology of it as long as I am obedient to Him and give Him glory for what He does. (which isn't hard by the way - I get blown away when He moves)

So my main reason for being here is to encourage others to enjoy the amazing events I have had the privilege to see.

I might add that I am deep in scripture and have been for years, but my main aim is to see spiritual fruit and encourage others likewise.

You do agree that much of the healing we see in responses to prayers nowadays are psychosomatic healings such as

1. Back conditions
2. Headaches
3. etc?

Those more dramatic ones, such as cancer remission etc, sometimes yes, the doctor report it is suddenly gone but on occasions, they do come back later on?

We also see faith healers wearing glasses, wearing wigs to concede their loss of hair, etc.

The point that everyone, both continualists and cessationalists agree on, is that God still heals today in response to prayer.

But it is no longer like what happened during Christ first coming to Israel, and those that existed before Acts 28.

As I said, nowadays, even when you commit your healing requests to God.

1. healing may or may not take place,
2. complete healing may not result,
3. and the sickness can return at anytime.

Those three outcomes have nothing to do with the lack of faith in a believer. Someone like Nick Vujicic will understand this very well.

 

[Butch5]

So if God is still doing stuff why all the fuss about how ?

Don't we want to be part of it ???

One reason is so that Chrsitians don't get taken in. The Bible says that in the last days there will be lying signs and wonders. If Christians fall for these thinking they are the first century spiritual gifts, they can be lead astray.

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 24:23–24.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what owithholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that qWicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 2 Th 2:5–10.

 

[Guojing]

One reason is so that Chrsitians don't get taken in. The Bible says that in the last days there will be lying signs and wonders. If Christians fall for these thinking they are the first century spiritual gifts, they can be lead astray.

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 24:23–24.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what owithholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that qWicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 2 Th 2:5–10.

Personally, I think it is very destructive to a Christian if he ends up thinking "Its because you or someone praying with you lack faith, that is why the healing did not take place".

It is worse if someone teaches him "You didn't trust God with your money, which is the least use of your faith, so how can God trust you with true riches, like healing"?

That is twisting the lesson of the parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16:10-11).

If Christians are correctly taught that healing in the current dispensation of grace is no longer the same as what was promised to Israel under the previous dispensation of Law, such wrong teachings would naturally vanish.

 

[biblelesson]

As I said, nowadays, even when you commit your healing requests to God.

1. healing may or may not take place,
2. complete healing may not result,
3. and the sickness can return at anytime.

Those three outcomes have nothing to do with the lack of faith in a believer. Someone like Nick Vujicic will understand this very well.

The proper faith is not being taught and understood and that is the problem the fact that healing is not taking place today.

Example: you hear people teach in most all churches that all we need is the faith of a mustard seed; and they explain that the mustard seed was small, so all you need is just a little faith. But this is so wrong because the apostles had first asked Christ to increase their faith, Luke 17:5-6. Then Jesus responded and spoke about having faith as a grain of mustard seed. The mustard seed although was tiny, had great faith.” To have faith “as” a grain of mustard seed, Matthew 17:20.

If little faith was Ok, then why did Jesus complain about his disciples little faith in Matthew 8:26, Matthew 14:31, Matthew 17:20.

That’s the problem: bad teaching. For years most churches in almost every state and town teaches little faith is enough. No wonder there is little healing. We need great faith just as the mustard seed had! Also Jesus said if you believe in your heart and “do not doubt.”’How many people are truly taught this. We are always full of doubt. If there is doubt, there is no healing. Without faith it is impossible to please God. That’s why!

I struggle with this issue like so many of us!

 

[Carl Emerson]

You do agree that much of the healing we see in responses to prayers nowadays are psychosomatic healings such as

1. Back conditions
2. Headaches
3. etc?

Those more dramatic ones, such as cancer remission etc, sometimes yes, the doctor report it is suddenly gone but on occasions, they do come back later on?

We also see faith healers wearing glasses, wearing wigs to concede their loss of hair, etc.

The point that everyone, both continualists and cessationalists agree on, is that God still heals today in response to prayer.

But it is no longer like what happened during Christ first coming to Israel, and those that existed before Acts 28.

As I said, nowadays, even when you commit your healing requests to God.

1. healing may or may not take place,
2. complete healing may not result,
3. and the sickness can return at anytime.

Those three outcomes have nothing to do with the lack of faith in a believer. Someone like Nick Vujicic will understand this very well.

I prefer to speak about what I have personally witnessed.

Conditions not recurring.

Healing happening.

Not usually in a church setting but out in the world.

And often involved being led to a particular place and time to see a particular need met...

 

[Guojing]

The proper faith is not being taught and understood and that is the problem the fact that healing is not taking place today.

Example: you hear people teach in most all churches that all we need is the faith of a mustard seed; and they explain that the mustard seed was small, so all you need is just a little faith. But this is so wrong because the apostles had first asked Christ to increase their faith, Luke 17:5-6. Then Jesus responded and spoke about having faith as a grain of mustard seed. The mustard seed although was tiny, had great faith.” To have faith “as” a grain of mustard seed, Matthew 17:20.

If little faith was Ok, then why did Jesus complain about his disciples little faith in Matthew 8:26, Matthew 14:31, Matthew 17:20.

That’s the problem: bad teaching. For years most churches in almost every state and town teaches little faith is enough. No wonder there is little healing. We need great faith just as the mustard seed had! Also Jesus said if you believe in your heart and “do not doubt.”’How many people are truly taught this. We are always full of doubt. If there is doubt, there is no healing. Without faith it is impossible to please God. That’s why!

I struggle with this issue like so many of us!

Since I believe "If Christians are correctly taught that healing in the current dispensation of grace is no longer the same as what was promised to Israel under the previous dispensation of Law, such wrong teachings would naturally vanish",

I would disagree with that of course. Jesus was preaching to Israel under the previous dispensation of Law. If you want to know how healing works today, get your teaching from Paul's letters instead.

 

[Guojing]

I prefer to speak about what I have personally witnessed.

Conditions not recurring.

Healing happening.

Not usually in a church setting but out in the world.

And often involved being led to a particular place and time to see a particular need met...

Its very easy to know how to respond when God heals you of course.

The main problem is how does one respond when you pray to God for healing and there is faith, but no healing takes place.

 

[Lost Witness]

I am obedient to Him and give Him glory for what He does. (which isn't hard by the way - I get blown away when He moves

Not sure I'd call it easy.
God's sovereign and he did forgive me so LORD willing, he'll open my ears so I might hear him before I take my last breath


May The LORD Bless You and Keep You



Shalom Aleichem

 

[biblelesson]

Since I believe "If Christians are correctly taught that healing in the current dispensation of grace is no longer the same as what was promised to Israel under the previous dispensation of Law, such wrong teachings would naturally vanish",

I would disagree with that of course. Jesus was preaching to Israel under the previous dispensation of Law. If you want to know how healing works today, get your teaching from Paul's letters instead.

You are exactly right to point out we should be in the correct dispensation. However, in some of Paul’s teachings he made reference to Old Testament scriptures, and I take those scriptures to be ok, but you are right, we must be careful.

The scriptures I mention about having faith In Matthew is a scripture that relates to the New Testament in 1 John.

In 1 John 5:14-15, here John says if we have confidence He hears us. To have confidence God hears us is exercising faith.

In 1 John 3:21-22, John is saying if our hearts don’t condemn us, whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him…. So if our hearts don’t condemn us, we are in faith and we receive from God.

Thanks for bring up the issue about the correct dispensation. That is so important.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Its very easy to know how to respond when God heals you of course.

The main problem is how does one respond when you pray to God for healing and there is faith, but no healing takes place.

Well your definition of faith may be different than mine.

For me faith comes from hearing and this is not generally taught.

Seeing what the Father is doing as Jesus did is the aim, and this should be the first objective.

When you see Him lifting a condition off the one sick then to proclaim a healing is very easy.

When you are specifically led to a crippled person then it is all about what He wants to do - it is His work.

Sometimes a word against the condition, sometimes intercession, sometimes just inviting His Spirit to move. There are no formulas but hearing what He wants is critical.

 

[Guojing]

Well your definition of faith may be different than mine.

For me faith comes from hearing and this is not generally taught.

Seeing what the Father is doing as Jesus did is the aim, and this should be the first objective.

When you see Him lifting a condition off the one sick then to proclaim a healing is very easy.

When you are specifically led to a crippled person then it is all about what He wants to do - it is His work.

Sometimes a word against the condition, sometimes intercession, sometimes just inviting His Spirit to move. There are no formulas but hearing what He wants is critical.

So what happen when you think you hear from God to pray to heal that fellow, and when you pray, no healing takes place?

What would your response be?

 

[Guojing]

You are exactly right to point out we should be in the correct dispensation. However, in some of Paul’s teachings he made reference to Old Testament scriptures, and I take those scriptures to be ok, but you are right, we must be careful.

The scriptures I mention about having faith In Matthew is a scripture that relates to the New Testament in 1 John.

In 1 John 5:14-15, here John says if we have confidence He hears us. To have confidence God hears us is exercising faith.

In 1 John 3:21-22, John is saying if our hearts don’t condemn us, whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him…. So if our hearts don’t condemn us, we are in faith and we receive from God.

Thanks for bring up the issue about the correct dispensation. That is so important.

My doctrine regarding healing under the previous dispensation of Law is as follows:

1. Jesus was sent to save Israel in his first coming (Romans 15:8, Matthew 1:21, Matthew 15:24, Luke 1:68-75)
2. Like how Moses was recognized by Israel thru signs (Exodus 4:29-31), Israel will likewise recognize Jesus by the signs that he will perform. (Deuteronomy 18:15, Luke 7:20-22, Acts 3:22-23, John 11:45-48).
3. Israel's correct response to those signs is to believe that he is THAT promised Messiah (Deuteronomy 34:10-12, Exodus 34:10, John 6:28-29, John 20:30-31, John 10:37-38).

So us gentiles in the Body of Christ should not directly look at Jesus first coming to claim those same healings that is a central feature of the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 10:5-8).

But now, under the current grace dispensation, we can certainly commit to Christ all our requests, including healing from our physical diseases, since Paul our apostle instructed us to (Philippians 4:6)

The main difference is that Paul did not teach us that healing is promised to us in the Body of Christ. the only promise is that God will send to us his peace, that passes all understanding (Philippians 4:7)