Is believing/faith a work ?

[John Mullally]

Doesnt matter how you spin it, If you condition Salvation, any part of it on what you do, or think , its salvation by works and denies Grace !

By that definition, Peter was guilty of preaching salvation by works in Acts 2:38-39 as he promised forgiveness of sins and receipt of the gift of the Holy Spirit (effectively salvation) to those would repent and be baptized. Your argument is with scripture.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.​

 

[Dah'veed]

What is 'amazing' (if that is the right word) is that the 'Trust' of Noah as well as Job's 'Trust' and that of so many OT Saints in spite of all the persecution of naysayers. That kiind of Faith was only possible by the 'Will' of GOD.

According to the covenant that I made with you when you came out of Egypt. My Spirit remains among you. Fear not. Haggai 2:5

Isn't that still true today when it comes to one's Trust/Faith' even inspite of naysayers ... it's only possible by the Will of GOD.

We were all baptized by one Spirit into one body, whether Jew or Greek, or slave or free, and we all were given one Spirit to drink. 1 Cor 12:13
And that Rock was Christ, the Messiah. 1 Cor 10:4

Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God’s powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile.

 

[Doug Brents]

So by this its clearly seen that you deny that the death of Christ in and of itself saved them He died for. Your contention obviously promotes that people Christ died for, took away their sins, still die in their sins, thats very dishonoring to Christs saving death/blood.

Not at all. You obviously have not been reading my posts carefully, just as you have not been reading Scripture carefully. Christ died for everyone. But He does not force anyone to accept Him. He begs and pleads with us to accept Him. He offers both the “carrot” and the “stick”, but He allows each to make the choice. And He only gives the saving benefit of His death to those who obey Him.

 

[Dah'veed]

Not at all. You obviously have not been reading my posts carefully, just as you have not been reading Scripture carefully. Christ died for everyone. But He does not force anyone to accept Him. He begs and pleads with us to accept Him. He offers both the “carrot” and the “stick”, but He allows each to make the choice. And He only gives the saving benefit of His death to those who obey Him.

“For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it. “Today I have given you a choice between life and death..." Deut 30:11-15

Choose life, that you may live; for the Lord is your life Col 3:4 and the length of your days; Deut 30:19-20

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:6-10

 

[Brightfame52]

Note the new highlight in your comment. Saved comes after called. It is His purpose and the saving power of Grace that was given before the world began, not the individual application of that saving power.

Remember, this passage cannot contradict or violate all the other passages that say we are justified when we exhibit faith. This passage simply tells us that God had the plan for our salvation before He created the World.

According to 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Which happened first ? Being saved or being called according to this verse ?

 

[Brightfame52]

By that definition, Peter was guilty of preaching salvation by works in Acts 2:38-39 as he promised forgiveness of sins and receipt of the gift of the Holy Spirit (effectively salvation) to those would repent and be baptized. Your argument is with scripture.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.​

Dont matter what verses you run and get, if you condition salvation on anything you do, its works !

 

[Brightfame52]

Not at all. You obviously have not been reading my posts carefully, just as you have not been reading Scripture carefully. Christ died for everyone. But He does not force anyone to accept Him. He begs and pleads with us to accept Him. He offers both the “carrot” and the “stick”, but He allows each to make the choice. And He only gives the saving benefit of His death to those who obey Him.

Oh yes, if you believe, as you do, that people Christ died for, paid their sin debt, still go to hell in their sins, then Christs death for them was insufficient to save them from their sins, that has to be your position friend, no way around it, And that is in reality unbelief

 

[John Mullally]

Dont matter what verses you run and get, if you condition salvation on anything you do, its works !

The portion of your response I underlined above admits your refusal to consider scriptural arguments that oppose your view.

From the Calvinistic perspective, any religion that teaches that salvation comes about by anything other than an “Irresistible Grace,” necessarily makes salvation into a works-based process, because (as it is reasoned) once you incorporate any act of the human will—what is left is some element of human contribution in the process. In other words, Calvinists believe that faith becomes a “work” whenever we come to think of faith as something that we do ourselves, absent of an Irresistible Grace. This means that in Calvinism, faith without Irresistible Grace = works.

God saves us apart from the works of the Law, and on the basis of His own purpose and grace. If one does not conflate man’s free choice to repent with God’s free choice to save the repentant (as Acts 2:38 shows), then this is not an issue that needs to be reconciled. Humbly admitting you need salvation is not equal to saving yourself. Confessing your sin, even if done freely, does not earn or merit forgiveness for that sin, otherwise, there would have been no need for the cross. Although Abraham believed in God, he still had a debt that he could not pay. God graciously chose to pay that debt through the sacrifice of His Son, without which no one would be saved.

 

[Dah'veed]

Which happened first ? Being saved or being called according to this verse ?

God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Cor 1:9

So that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness to his marvelous light; 1 Peter 2:9

 

[Brightfame52]

The portion of your response I underlined above admits your refusal to consider scriptural arguments that oppose your view.

From the Calvinistic perspective, any religion that teaches that salvation comes about by anything other than an “Irresistible Grace,” necessarily makes salvation into a works-based process, because (as it is reasoned) once you incorporate any act of the human will—what is left is some element of human contribution in the process. In other words, Calvinists believe that faith becomes a “work” whenever we come to think of faith as something that we do ourselves, absent of an Irresistible Grace. This means that in Calvinism, faith without Irresistible Grace = works.

God saves us apart from the works of the Law, and on the basis of His own purpose and grace. If one does not conflate man’s free choice to repent with God’s free choice to save the repentant (as Acts 2:38 shows), then this is not an issue that needs to be reconciled. Humbly admitting you need salvation is not equal to saving yourself. Confessing your sin, even if done freely, does not earn or merit forgiveness for that sin, otherwise, there would have been no need for the cross. Although Abraham believed in God, he still had a debt that he could not pay. God graciously chose to pay that debt through the sacrifice of His Son, without which no one would be saved.

If you make anything you do a condition for salvation it's works and denies Salvation by Grace!

 

[Dah'veed]

God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Cor 1:9

So that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness to his marvelous light; 1 Peter 2:9

If you make anything you do a condition for salvation it's works and denies Salvation by Grace!

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people...

Christ gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, zealous of good works. Titus 2:11-14

It's the song of the redeemed
It's every tribe, every tongue, every nation
A love song born of a grateful choir

It's all God's children singin'
"Glory, glory, hallelujah"
"He reigns, he reigns"

And all the powers of darkness
Tremble at what they've just heard
'Cause all their powers of darkness
Can't drown out a single word
He Reigns Newsboys

 

[John Mullally]

If you make anything you do a condition for salvation it's works and denies Salvation by Grace!

Your understanding of Salvation by Grace contradicts Acts 2:38-39.

2 Corinthians 10:4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.​

 

[Brightfame52]

Your understanding of Salvation by Grace contradicts Acts 2:38-39.

2 Corinthians 10:4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.​

My understanding is fine, it appears yours is astray, if you condition Salvation on anything you do, its works and denies Grace.

 

[Dah'veed]

Brightfame52 said:
If you make anything you do a condition for salvation it's works and denies Salvation by Grace!

Your understanding of Salvation by Grace contradicts Acts 2:38-39.

So, I have a question. If you don't bring anything to the table as Brightfame52 said, would you not perceive that the inheritance was based on faith?

So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Acts 15:8-9 Psalm 44:20-21 Psalm 18:19-21

2 Corinthians 10:4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.​

 

[Doug Brents]

According to 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Which happened first ? Being saved or being called according to this verse ?

There is no indication of timing in this verse as to which came first: saved or called. This passage does tell us that we are saved and called after His giving of Jesus as a gift to bring about our salvation, but not how long after.

And other passages tell us that we receive salvation (justified, washed clean, forgiven) when, after we repent and confess Jesus as our Lord, we are baptized.

 

[Doug Brents]

Oh yes, if you believe, as you do, that people Christ died for, paid their sin debt, still go to hell in their sins, then Christs death for them was insufficient to save them from their sins, that has to be your position friend, no way around it, And that is in reality unbelief

That is not unbelief. Christ’s death is indeed sufficient to cover their sins, but as Scripture says, without faith it is impossible to please God. And faith requires action (James 2:26). Without a person demonstrating faith, the benefit of Jesus’ sacrifice is not received.

 

[Doug Brents]

My understanding is fine, it appears yours is astray, if you condition Salvation on anything you do, its works and denies Grace.

You repeatedly make this reply, but this statement does not agree with Scripture, and Scripture is more important than your personal belief. The fact that you will not submit your beliefs and understanding to Scripture’s clear message demonstrates the idolatry of your attachment to your preconceptions.

 

[Brightfame52]

There is no indication of timing in this verse as to which came first: saved or called. This passage does tell us that we are saved and called after His giving of Jesus as a gift to bring about our salvation, but not how long after.

And other passages tell us that we receive salvation (justified, washed clean, forgiven) when, after we repent and confess Jesus as our Lord, we are baptized.

Sure its an indication, they were saved then called. The Gospel of Salvation is to them that are saved 1 Cor 1:18

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

That is not unbelief. Christ’s death is indeed sufficient to cover their sins, but as Scripture says, without faith it is impossible to please God. And faith requires action (James 2:26). Without a person demonstrating faith, the benefit of Jesus’ sacrifice is not received.

It sure is unbelief, you are implying that Christs death/blood in and of itself saved no one. Thats unbelief. Faith believes that Christ saved you. You believe the opposite

 

[Brightfame52]

You repeatedly make this reply, but this statement does not agree with Scripture, and Scripture is more important than your personal belief. The fact that you will not submit your beliefs and understanding to Scripture’s clear message demonstrates the idolatry of your attachment to your preconceptions.

Im going to keep saying it because its true, if a person conditions salvation on what they do, its works, and contrary to grace, cant be both Rom 11:6


And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.