Propitiation

[Hammster]

The one who has faith in Jesus according to scripture, God's wrath no longer remains on him/her. But this is not unconditional. The average Christain is genuine in commitment to God and seeks repentance, such a person experiences no wrath. But one who lacks respect, and seeks sin over God is on very shaky ground. The cross is not a sin excuser, it is a heart changer.

Romans 2:3-5 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

I’m still curious as to your definition of propitiation as used in 1 John.

 

[Hammster]

You limit the atonement to applying to some people only. I view the atonement according to God's wise purpose for it.

But you agree that God’s wrath isn’t appeased towards all men.

 

[Hammster]

No, it doesn't apply if and when our sins become tantamount to mocking Him and the sacrifice of His Son, which has the purpose of overcoming sin and restoring true justice to His world. God awaits all men with open arms-He graces all, calling and enabling them to join in His embrace, but compels none to do so.

That’s your view, then, of limited atonement. So Christ’s death is not propitious for all men since the wrath of God remains on some men.

 

[Hammster]

Well it is not actually hell, but the lake of fire in Revelation

That doesn’t change my point.

 

[fhansen]

That’s your view, then, of limited atonement. So Christ’s death is not propitious for all men since the wrath of God remains on some men.

Well, I understand that you believe that some men are reprobate. Does God's wrath remain on them? Again, the door is open, we now know the true God: that He is love and we have nothing to fear as we, ourselves, begin to love in return. But if we prefer evil, if we return to sin, then there's no carte blanc reprieve from punishment even if God continues to love all of His creation:

"If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries." Heb 10:26

“You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.” Rom 11:19-22

 

[fhansen]

But you agree that God’s wrath isn’t appeased towards all men.

God is appeased; He forgives all sin. That's because sin is the enemy that separates us from Him. So, if we continue to sin, or return to sin, we remain apart from Him. God's mercy and kindness continue, but if we don't eventually respond in kind then it has no effect for us. If that contradicts His appeasement in your mind then so be it.

 

[Hammster]

God is appeased; He forgives all sin. That's because sin is the enemy that separates us from Him. So, if we continue to sin, or return to sin, we remain apart from Him. God's mercy and kindness continue, but if we don't eventually respond in kind then it has no effect for us. If that contradicts His appeasement in your mind then so be it.

The us isn’t relevant here. I understand that to hold to your view consistently you need to take the focus away from propitiation and put it on us. The bottom line is that if Christ bore our sins on the cross, and did so out of love and obedience towards the Father, and the Father sends people to hell because

 

[fhansen]

The us isn’t relevant here. I understand that to hold to your view consistently you need to take the focus away from propitiation and put it on us. The bottom line is that if Christ bore our sins on the cross, and did so out of love and obedience towards the Father, and the Father sends people to hell because

"...because..."? I'd like to know how the thought finishes there but, yes, the "us" is important here. Again, the veil is torn-we now have direct access to God. Jesus demonstrates on the cross a love so profound that we can only begin to comprehend and be moved and changed by it, but it reverses our concept of God towards us. Now- if only we care enough to open the door when He knocks. Then His appeasement makes a difference in our lives.

 

[Hammster]

"...because..."? I'd like to know how the thought finishes there but, yes, the "us" is important here. Again, the veil is torn-we now have direct access to God. Jesus demonstrates on the cross a love so profound that we can only begin to comprehend and be moved and changed by it, but it reverses our concept of God towards us. Now- if only we care enough to open the door when He knocks. Then His appeasement makes a difference in our lives.

So if we don’t open the door when He knocks, what happens to the sins that He’s no longer angry about?

 

[fhansen]

So if we don’t open the door when He knocks, what happens to the sins that He’s no longer angry about?

There's no change if we don't open the door. His love has had no impact on us. His forgiveness has not been accepted, the offense remains. But so does His offer-we can still open it at any time, or not. IOW if we remain in our sins, or return to them, then His forgiveness does us no good and our sins still separates us from Him. After forgiveness of sins, we can and must follow Jesus in His holiness. If we don't turn from sin, His anger remains. Prior to Jesus' coming that forgiveness and the reconciled union with God that follows was not possible.

 

[Hammster]

If we don't turn from sin, His anger remains.

Wait a second. What anger? You’ve said that God’s wrath is appeased, but now there’s anger that remains. Where does this come from?

 

[fhansen]

Wait a second. What anger? You’ve said that God’s wrath is appeased, but now there’s anger that remains. Where does this come from?

Our past sins.

 

[Hammster]

Our past sins.

How can there be anger for our past sins, when they were all future sins at the cross?

 

[BNR32FAN]

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:1-2

It’s is commonly understood that propitiation is the atoning sacrifice that appeases God’s wrath. That’s the definition I’m going with here. Looking at this passage, we can conclude one of two things. God's wrath was satisfied for some or for all. Those who think it’s for all take “whole world” prima facia and say God loved the whole world and bore the sins of every man. Those who say it’s only for some look at the context and see the “our sins” as John’s immediate audience, and “whole world” as indicating that it’s just not his audience, but others throughout the world.

My argument against the former is that if God’s wrath is satisfied by His Son’s sacrifice, then He would be unjust for sending anyone to hell. It would be akin to someone paying off my house in full, yet the bank foreclosing on my house. That would not be just.

So it’s best to see “whole world” as referencing people throughout the world, as opposed to every single person in the world.

I don’t view this situation like a house mortgage whereas once the payment is made you are entitled to your property, I see it more like an admission fee. Just because Christ paid for a ticket for everyone doesn’t mean He is obligated to give a ticket to everyone. Everyone will stand before Christ on Judgement Day and He will either acknowledge or deny each person before The Father. This is basically equivalent to Him handing out the tickets.

 

[fhansen]

How can there be anger for our past sins, when they were all future sins at the cross?

Any of our past sins are an offense against God. If not then they would already be forgiven, no need for the Cross.

 

[Hammster]

I don’t view this situation like a house mortgage whereas once the payment is made you are entitled to your property, I see it more like an admission fee. Just because Christ paid for a ticket for everyone doesn’t mean He is obligated to give a ticket to everyone. Everyone will stand before Christ on Judgement Day and He will either acknowledge or deny each person before The Father. This is basically equivalent to Him handing out the tickets.

So what is your definition of propitiation?

 

[Hammster]

Our past sins.

Any of our past sins are an offense against God. If not then they would already be forgiven, no need for the Cross.

Again, how can there be anger for past sins when they were future sins at the moment of atonement?

 

[BNR32FAN]

What’s your redefinition of propitiation, then?

The definition doesn’t have to change at all if you understand that the propitiation doesn’t take place at the crucifix but when the person humbles himself to Christ.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So what is your definition of propitiation?

I think you’re expecting that the propitiation took place on the cross, I disagree with that. I believe the proposal doesn’t take place until we come to Christ.

 

[Hammster]

The definition doesn’t have to change at all if you understand that the propitiation doesn’t take place at the crucifix but when the person humbles himself to Christ.

That’s not supported biblically. “It is finished” means just that. Our debt, being canceled out, happened at the cross.