How do We Know if We are in YHWH's Renewed Covenant?

[daq]

What I am hearing from the Torah folks is that the Everlasting Word of the Most High cannot change.

Yet we know God can change His mind.

We know He annulled His Everlasting Word given in Genesis 17 regarding circumcision.

What I am hearing from anti-Torah people is that the Everlasting Word of the Father Most High cannot be trusted as faithful, enduring, and everlasting, even though HE HIMSELF says that it is.

 

[daq]

Didn't I ask you a question first?

You like to answer a question by asking 2 questions back?

Go back and look at my post which you first responded to and perhaps you should explain why you asked me a question without answering my two questions that were in that post which you quoted. You have three fingers pointing back at yourself: I asked two questions in that post which was not even addressed to you. You interjected with a question while totally ignoring my two questions in that post. Moreover I did not lie: if you had answered those two questions you would not likely have even asked the question which you did because you ask utterly amiss.

 

[Guojing]

Go back and look at my post which you first responded to and perhaps you should explain why you asked me a question without answering my two questions that were in that post which you quoted. You have three fingers pointing back at yourself: I asked two questions in that post which was not even addressed to you. You interjected with a question while totally ignoring my two questions in that post. Moreover I did not lie: if you had answered those two questions you would not likely have even asked the question which you did because you ask utterly amiss.

I asked you a yes or no question.

Why is it so difficult for you to reply with either a yes or no?

No one can read your mind except yourself

 

[Carl Emerson]

What I am hearing from anti-Torah people is that the Everlasting Word of the Father Most High cannot be trusted as faithful, enduring, and everlasting, even though HE HIMSELF says that it is.

That's fine... Please explain Gen 17 which states all must be circumcised and the inspired words of the Jerusalem Council which refused this demand.

 

[guevaraj]

Did not Jesus also keep the Law for us?

Brother, Jesus' sacrifice is for those who make the effort to obey God's Eleven Commandments and not for those who disobey God's Eleven Commandments, deliberately continuing to sin and teaching others to continue sinning by saying that Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient when such a human tradition is busted in the following passage.

Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. (Hebrews 10:26 NLT)​

Under the many forgivenesses of Jesus as our High Priest, you can grow to obey the Eleven Commandments through practice like a child who learns to walk by getting up again and again until he no longer falls. Or as someone who wants to learn to play the piano, you learn slowly through practice. Practice thanks to Jesus' many forgivenesses for past sins in comparison to the law's unforgiving condemnation. The law does not allow slow growth through practice, but Jesus gave us what the law did not; growth in obedience to the Eleven Commandments through the practice which Paul calls slavery when he says we are "slaves to righteous living" by obeying God instead of "slaves to sin", "which leads to death".

Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living. Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you. Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living. (Romans 6:15-18 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[guevaraj]

That's fine... Please explain Gen 17 which states all must be circumcised and the inspired words of the Jerusalem Council which refused this demand.

Brother, who does the "circumcision" has changed, but not its requirement for salvation. Jesus now does the "circumcision" and humans no longer do the "circumcision". The Jerusalem council did not eliminate "circumcision" when it provided a seed-list to add to, allowing for the adaption of Moses and everything that came before him by the Gentiles who were turning to God free of the added human traditions of Judaism that Jesus was against in the following passage.

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either. “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are! “Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’ Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred? And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne. (Matthew 23:13-22 NLT)​

James was not limiting what we need to obey, he was giving us permission to adopt Moses without forcing the human traditions of Judaism on us Gentiles, as we turn to God by giving us a seed, a beginning to add to. James saw us as the fulfillment of the prophecy where God would "restore the fallen house of David" as we listened to Moses every Sabbath. What that means is the equivalent of continuing Judaism without human traditions. The human traditions in Judaism led to death by sabotaging God's Ten Commandments so as not to take away sin that would otherwise have been taken away if they had done what God asked, instead of replacing what God asked with their own rules, in their "human effort" to help them obey the law by sabotaging the law so as not to take away sin, which made the law easier to bear. For example, in order not to use God's name in vain, Judaism added the human rule not to pronounce God's name to help obey God's law by preventing them from having to learn not to misuse His name. Judaism managed to bypass the active part of taking away their sin by replacing God's law with their own rule not to utter God's name at all.

When they had finished, James stood and said, “Brothers, listen to me. Peter has told you about the time God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people for himself. And this conversion of Gentiles is exactly what the prophets predicted. As it is written: ‘Afterward I will return and restore the fallen house of David. I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, so that the rest of humanity might seek the LORD, including the Gentiles—all those I have called to be mine. The LORD has spoken—he who made these things known so long ago.’ “And so my judgment is that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from eating food offered to idols, from sexual immorality, from eating the meat of strangled animals, and from consuming blood. For these laws of Moses has been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations.” (Acts 15:13-21 NLT fixed)​

One of the first adoptions of Moses and everything that came before Moses beyond the seed-list in Acts to add to the Eleven Commandments taught by Jesus, was taught by Paul that "circumcision" is now done by Jesus and no longer done by humans.

When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. (Colossians 2:11-12 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[daq]

I asked you a yes or no question.

That was your second question. I answered your first question, and apparently you did not like the answer, then you asked the second question while ignoring both of the first two questions in my post to your friend. I notice also that your friend did not answer the two questions either, and decided to leave the forum, and he didn't even acknowledge that I had responded to one of his posts with the Testimony of the Messiah which included those same two questions you responded to without answering either one of them.

Why is it so difficult for you to reply with either a yes or no?

It isn't difficult: I simply am not going to answer because you are trying to force me into judging all MJ's by the very wording in your first question. If you wish to do such a thing that is your business, but not mine, for I wasn't even speaking of any such thing in what I posted. Again, if you had answered the first two questions you would know that your line of reasoning is way off base.

No one can read your mind except yourself

Apparently you cannot read the Testimony of the Messiah which was posted and upon which my two questions were predicated. That's not a denial of what may or may not be in my heart and mind but a denial of the Testimony of the Messiah which you refuse to read in my post in order to answer the questions which I asked predicated on his statements.

 

[daq]

That's fine... Please explain Gen 17 which states all must be circumcised and the inspired words of the Jerusalem Council which refused this demand.

The basics were answered in Reply#1211, which you essentially ignored: for although you did quote that post, all you did was quote Genesis 17:9-14 without any commentary of your own, as if that apparently shows that what the Torah says in Deuteronomy must be wrong according to your understanding of what is found in the places that were referenced in my post. It isn't the letter that you were ignoring: it is the Logos within the passages, instruction, teachings, and sayings.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Brother, who does the "circumcision" has changed, but not its requirement for salvation. Jesus now does the "circumcision" and humans no longer do the "circumcision". The Jerusalem council did not eliminate "circumcision" when it provided a seed-list to add to, allowing for the adaption of Moses and everything that came before him by the Gentiles who were turning to God free of the added human traditions of Judaism that Jesus was against in the following passage.

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either. “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are! “Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’ Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred? And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne. (Matthew 23:13-22 NLT)​

James was not limiting what we need to obey, he was giving us permission to adopt Moses without forcing the human traditions of Judaism on us Gentiles, as we turn to God by giving us a seed, a beginning to add to. James saw us as the fulfillment of the prophecy where God would "restore the fallen house of David" as we listened to Moses every Sabbath. What that means is the equivalent of continuing Judaism without human traditions. The human traditions in Judaism led to death by sabotaging God's Ten Commandments so as not to take away sin that would otherwise have been taken away if they had done what God asked, instead of replacing what God asked with their own rules, in their "human effort" to help them obey the law by sabotaging the law so as not to take away sin, which made the law easier to bear. For example, in order not to use God's name in vain, Judaism added the human rule not to pronounce God's name to help obey God's law by preventing them from having to learn not to misuse His name. Judaism managed to bypass the active part of taking away their sin by replacing God's law with their own rule not to utter God's name at all.

When they had finished, James stood and said, “Brothers, listen to me. Peter has told you about the time God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people for himself. And this conversion of Gentiles is exactly what the prophets predicted. As it is written: ‘Afterward I will return and restore the fallen house of David. I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, so that the rest of humanity might seek the LORD, including the Gentiles—all those I have called to be mine. The LORD has spoken—he who made these things known so long ago.’ “And so my judgment is that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from eating food offered to idols, from sexual immorality, from eating the meat of strangled animals, and from consuming blood. For these laws of Moses has been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations.” (Acts 15:13-21 NLT fixed)​

One of the first adoptions of Moses and everything that came before Moses beyond the seed-list in Acts to add to the Eleven Commandments taught by Jesus, was taught by Paul that "circumcision" is now done by Jesus and no longer done by humans.

When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. (Colossians 2:11-12 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Gen 17 required under eternal covenant a physical circumcision.

How can you read it any other way ???

I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. 8 And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.”

9 And God said to Abraham, “As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

 

[guevaraj]

Gen 17 required under eternal covenant a physical circumcision. How can you read it any other way ???

Brother, you don't believe Paul when he says we are "circumcised" when we come to Christ, "but not by a physical procedure"?

When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. (Colossians 2:11-12 NLT)​

Not believing Paul above does not surprise me, because even Jesus is not believed below when He says we are to obey a total of Eleven Commandments. What the Eleven Commandments show is that Jesus is more demanding now than before, Jesus having given more than before.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments (entolé): ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)​

The new Eleventh Commandment above is found in the following passage, where to do "just as I have" is to "follow" His example by keeping a total of Eleven Commandments when Jesus adds one more to the previous Ten Commandments, saying above: "there is still one thing you haven't done".

As soon as Judas left the room, Jesus said, “The time has come for the Son of Man to enter into his glory, and God will be glorified because of him. And since God receives glory because of the Son, he will give his own glory to the Son, and he will do so at once. Dear children, I will be with you only a little longer. And as I told the Jewish leaders, you will search for me, but you can’t come where I am going. So now I am giving you a new commandment (entolé): Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.” (John 13:31-35 NLT)​

Adding one more Eleventh Commandment to the previous Ten Commandments is consistent with Jesus not changing and bringing us closer to Him.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Hebrews 13:8 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[expos4ever]

Jesus did not teach a different gospel to Jews and the Gentiles; humans have invented that distinction in contradiction with the teachings of Jesus. Jesus added one new commandment and did not replace the previous Ten Commandments for a total of Eleven Commandments in the new covenant.

I suggest that Jesus intentionally broke the Sabbath commandment as a way of symbolizing the imminent retiring of the Law of Moses. And Paul clearly indicates the time of the written code of the Law of Moses is over:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [h]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Now some will try to evade the clear import of what Paul is saying by suggesting he means that we are no longer condemned by the Law of Moses. But, in so doing, they do great violence to the verb "serve" - how does one justify the massive edit of changing Paul's statement that we "no longer serve according to the Letter", into "we are no longer judged according to the Letter".

The range of possible meanings of "to serve" is limited - no matter how much one wishes it were otherwise, one cannot take "to serve" and make it "to be judged" by.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments (entolé): ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’”

Yes, we all know that Jesus, at different times, instructed His temporaries to obey the law of Moses. By itself, repeat by itself, this can be seen as support for your position that the law remains in force. However, I will counter that Jesus repeatedly broke the law of Moses intentionally and otherwise hinted at its imminent end. Not to mention Paul who is quite clear that the law has come to an end. Furthermore, I can argue Jesus knows that the law will only end at the cross, and therefore people still need to obey it in the meantime.

 

[guevaraj]

Paul who is quite clear that the law has come to an end.

Brother, Paul speaks against the Jewish sabotage of the Ten Commandments by finding their own human way to obey, taking away the purpose of God's Ten Commandments to remove sin, which made the Ten Commandments easier to bear. Paul knows that these Ten Commandments can be sabotaged by human rules so that they don't take away sin. Paul knows this sabotage is found in Judaism. For this reason, instead of focusing on obedience to the law, as Judaism did by making up their own rules to help them obey the law of God, Paul focused on the purpose of the Ten Commandments to remove sin. By focusing on sin instead of obedience to God's law, Paul protects God's Ten Commandments from human rules that sabotage the purpose of God's law to take away sin in their "human effort" to obey. Again, the human traditions in Judaism led to death by sabotaging God's Ten Commandments so as not to take away sin. Sin that would otherwise have been taken away if they had done what God asked instead of replacing what God asked with their own rules. These human rules were their "human effort" to help them obey the law by sabotaging the law so as not to take away sin, which made the law easier to bear. For example, in order not to use God's name in vain, Judaism added the human rule not to pronounce God's name to help obey God's law by preventing them from having to learn not to misuse His name. Judaism managed to bypass the active part of taking away their sin by replacing God's law with their own rule not to utter God's name at all. Jesus' sacrifice is for those who make the effort to obey God's Eleven Commandments and not for those who disobey God's Eleven Commandments, deliberately continuing to sin and teaching others to continue sinning. The popular excuse today is to say that Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient when such a human tradition is busted in the following passage.

Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. (Hebrews 10:26 NLT)​

Under the many forgivenesses of Jesus as our High Priest, you can grow to obey the Eleven Commandments through practice like a child who learns to walk by getting up again and again until he no longer falls. Or as someone who wants to learn to play the piano, you learn slowly through practice. Practice thanks to Jesus' many forgivenesses for past sins in comparison to the law's unforgiving condemnation. The law does not allow slow growth through practice, but Jesus gave us what the law did not; growth in obedience to the Eleven Commandments through the practice which Paul calls slavery when he says we are "slaves to righteous living" by obeying God instead of "slaves to sin", "which leads to death".

Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living. Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you. Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living. (Romans 6:15-18 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[AbbaLove]

How do We Know if We are in YHWH's Renewed Covenant?​

daq first needs to give us his finite defintion of the Renewed Covenant of YHWH (which he won't because he doesn't know). There is no consensus among Believers: Whether a Messianic Christian; A Jewish Messianic, A denominational Christian; A non-denominational Believer; Etc, etc.

So as another post mentioned ... daq's reply to a question with another question ... What is your finite defintion? The only ones that have a finite defiition are those led by HIS Spirit. Even then it probably can't be expressed in words that everyone interprets the same ... thus is the nature of fallen man ... thus why there are so many denominations and Messianic fellowships in Israel that don't see eye-to-eye when it comes to ...

How do We Know if We are in YHWH's Renewed Covenant?​

Doubt daq would ever post this question in CFs MJ forum. Doing so would only go to show there's far from a finite definition that even "Messianics" (Gal. 3:28) can Agree and Stand United. It's been reported there are [at least] 33 Messianic fellowships in Israel. Each with its own uniqueness when it comes to: YHWH's Renewed Covenant?

The best finite definition would be as simple as E = mc2 ... without complicating it; however it's still up to each Believer to interrupt HIS Word (1 John 2:27out) without being overly influenced by man's religiousity.

 

[expos4ever]

What I am hearing from anti-Torah people is that the Everlasting Word of the Father Most High cannot be trusted as faithful, enduring, and everlasting, even though HE HIMSELF says that it is.

If you can provide evidence of Old Testament texts that unambiguously say the Law lasts literally forever, then you will have an argument. However, if the original Hebrew word that is translated as "forever" could, repeat could, be interpreted as "for an age", then your argument here does not really work. And I believe it is often the case that what gets rendered as "forever" does not necessarily really mean forever.

 

[daq]

How do We Know if We are in YHWH's Renewed Covenant?​

daq first needs to give us his finite defintion of the Renewed Covenant of YHWH (which he won't because he doesn't know). There is no consensus among Believers: Whether a Messianic Christian; A Jewish Messianic, A denominational Christian; A non-denominational Believer; Etc, etc.

So as another post mentioned ... daq's reply to a question with another question ... What is your finite defintion? The only ones that have a finite defiition are those led by HIS Spirit. Even then it probably can't be expressed in words that everyone interprets the same ... thus is the nature of fallen man ... thus why there are so many denominations and Messianic fellowships in Israel that don't see eye-to-eye when it comes to ...

How do We Know if We are in YHWH's Renewed Covenant?​

Doubt daq would ever post this question in CFs MJ forum. Doing so would only go to show there's far from a finite definition that even "Messianics" (Gal. 3:28) can Agree and Stand United. It's been reported there are [at least] 33 Messianic fellowships in Israel. Each with its own uniqueness when it comes to: YHWH's Renewed Covenant?

The best finite definition would be as simple as E = mc2 ... without complicating it; however it's still up to each Believer to interrupt HIS Word (1 John 2:27out) without being overly influenced by man's religiousity.

Why all this ranting about me out of nowhere?

How do We Know if We are in YHWH's Renewed Covenant?​

daq first needs to give us his finite defintion of the Renewed Covenant of YHWH (which he won't because he doesn't know). There is no consensus among Believers: Whether a Messianic Christian; A Jewish Messianic, A denominational Christian; A non-denominational Believer; Etc, etc.

Why are you posting the thread title in large bold letters and directing your angst against me?
I did not start this thread.

So as another post mentioned ... daq's reply to a question with another question ... What is your finite defintion? The only ones that have a finite defiition are those led by HIS Spirit. Even then it probably can't be expressed in words that everyone interprets the same ... thus is the nature of fallen man ... thus why there are so many denominations and Messianic fellowships in Israel that don't see eye-to-eye when it comes to ...

Wrong: I posted the Testimony of the Messiah with two questions at the end of the post and no one even dared to answer it while another poster decided it was better to ask me two questions instead, in return for my two questions about the Testimony of the Master which I had posted.

How do We Know if We are in YHWH's Renewed Covenant?​

Doubt daq would ever post this question in CFs MJ forum. Doing so would only go to show there's far from a finite definition that even "Messianics" (Gal. 3:28) can Agree and Stand United. It's been reported there are [at least] 33 Messianic fellowships in Israel. Each with its own uniqueness when it comes to: YHWH's Renewed Covenant?

Please review 1 John 3:15.

 

[daq]

If you can provide evidence of Old Testament texts that unambiguously say the Law lasts literally forever, then you will have an argument. However, if the original Hebrew word that is translated as "forever" could, repeat could, be interpreted as "for an age", then your argument here does not really work. And I believe it is often the case that what gets rendered as "forever" does not necessarily really mean forever.

So let's see, we have one antinomian who says that the Messiah intentionally broke the Torah to show everyone that he was about to bring it to an end, (that would be you), and another who openly admits that "Everlasting" does not actually mean everlasting, (and by the way the capital in "Everlasting" was what the other poster wrote in his own words: I only copied what he did in my response to his post).

One disqualifies his own version of the Messiah by saying that he intentionally broke the Torah and sinned. The other turns Everlasting into until something new and better comes along.

Well, guess what, if everlasting does not actually mean everlasting then nothing in the N/T is reliable either because it is only "Everlasting" until something new and better comes along.

 

[expos4ever]

One disqualifies his own version of the Messiah by saying that he intentionally broke the Torah and sinned.

Strawman. I, of course, never claimed that Jesus sinned. Did I claim He broke the Law? Yes, guilty as charged. But you are misrepresenting me since if Jesus really is the author of the Law of Moses, then it is at least plausible that He has the authority to publically declare the imminent end of the Law of Moses by breaking the Law publically.

The other turns Everlasting into until something new and better comes along.

This effectively evades the challenge posed to you. Can you, or can you not make a case that the word translated as "everlasting" or "eternal", when used in relation to the Law, requires us to take this literally? Or can the word mean "for an age"?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Brother, you don't believe Paul when he says we are "circumcised" when we come to Christ, "but not by a physical procedure"?

You miss the point entirely.

Did or did not God break the everlasting covenant of physical circumcision?

 

[daq]

Strawman. I, of course, never claimed that Jesus sinned. Did I claim He broke the Law? Yes, guilty as charged.

One of your primary claims was that the Messiah intentionally broke the Shabbat according to (your misunderstanding of) John 5:1-18 in order to show the people that he was about to bring an end to the Torah.

Exodus 31:12-18 KJV
12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Therefore your version of the Messiah was put to death for his own sin, breaking the Shabbat commandment which is a perpetual covenant, and did not die for your sins.

This effectively evades the challenge posed to you. Can you, or can you not make a case that the word translated as "everlasting" or "eternal", when used in relation to the Law, requires us to take this literally? Or can the word mean "for an age"?

Please read Reply#1239. Carl Emerson made the claim, not me. However the following is the LXX reading of Exodus 31:16 from the above quote wherein we read perpetual covenant in the KJV.

Exodus 31:16 OG LXX
16 και φυλαξουσιν οι υιοι ισραηλ τα σαββατα ποιειν αυτα εις τας γενεας αυτων διαθηκη αιωνιος

What do you suppose aionios (αιωνιος) means in the Apostolic writings?

Here is a nice example:

John 12:49-50 KJV
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: [αιωνιος] whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

LOL, Life everlasting? Canceled by the cancel culture word wizards!

 

[Leaf473]

One would have to agree that Paul presented a very 'Cross centred' Gospel and the Apostles confirmed his position by not demanding of the gentiles circumcision or any Law beyond the famous 4 requirements that resulted in spiritual defilement, and would compromise the fellowship.
Jewish believers were still free to circumcise if they desired.

Yep! And I like how when James retells the story in Acts 21, he indicates that they told the gentiles something different:
"But as for the Gentiles who have become believers, we have sent them a letter..."