How do We Know if We are in YHWH's Renewed Covenant?

[Leaf473]

Brothers, circumcision was not eliminated in the council of Jerusalem. Jesus did not teach a different gospel to Jews and the Gentiles; humans have invented that distinction in contradiction with the teachings of Jesus. Jesus added one new commandment and did not replace the previous Ten Commandments for a total of Eleven Commandments in the new covenant. Humans teach replacement when Jesus added one more glorious Eleventh Commandment to the previous glory of the Ten Commandments.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments (entolé): ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)​

The new Eleventh Commandment above is found in the following passage, where to do "just as I have" is to "follow" His example by keeping a total of Eleven Commandments when Jesus adds one more to the previous Ten Commandments, saying above: "there is still one thing you haven't done".

As soon as Judas left the room, Jesus said, “The time has come for the Son of Man to enter into his glory, and God will be glorified because of him. And since God receives glory because of the Son, he will give his own glory to the Son, and he will do so at once. Dear children, I will be with you only a little longer. And as I told the Jewish leaders, you will search for me, but you can’t come where I am going. So now I am giving you a new commandment (entolé): Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.” (John 13:31-35 NLT)​

Circumcision changed because Jesus now does the circumcision and humans no longer do the circumcision. One of the first adoptions of Moses and everything that came before Moses beyond the seed-list in Acts to add to the Eleven Commandments taught by Jesus, was taught by Paul that circumcision is now done by Jesus and no longer done by humans.

When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. (Colossians 2:11-12 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Hello Brother, good to see you here!

When you talk about "circumcision changed", I think that's a key point. Things in the law of Moses can change.

United in seeking God's truths together!

 

[Leaf473]

Romans 7:14 TS2009
14 For we know that the Torah is Spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin.

So you have several choices: you can believe or not believe what Rom 7:14a says, and if you choose to believe what it says you can also add to it and say that it means we know that sometimes the Torah is spiritual, or you can just believe what it says without adding anything to it in your heart and mind as you read it. My suggestion would be, if you choose to believe this statement from Rom 7:14a, that you believe what it says without adding to it so as to twist it into what is more comfortable for yourself and your paradigm.



How many times have I quoted from the Prophets who utterly disagree with the Pharisaic and Sadducaic carnal minded interpretation of literal-physical animal sacrifices in the Torah and even go so far as to call it abomination? You either believe them or not.



Understand that the first thing the Pharisees did after the destruction of Yerushalem was to compile their oral law into written form, and this took about four hundred years, (the Talmud in two compilations, the second being finished around 500 AD). At the same time they were compiling all available Hebrew texts, then, after completing the Talmudic writings, they began inserting their oral law traditions into the Hebrew text by the pointing system which they invented, which is indeed an entire commentary actually embedded right into the modern Masoretic Hebrew text, (a single vowel can change a word to a different word with a different meaning). This process took about another three to five hundred years, and thus, we now have the Masoretic Hebrew text with the oral tradition commentary embedded into the Hebrew text by way of the Masorete pointing system, finalization beginning around 700 AD and completed around 1000 AD.

None of this existed in the first century: Paul and the authors of the Apostolic authors did not have a Masorete pointed Hebrew text to read from, and no doubt they would have had many problems with it. What does this mean? It means that no matter which English translation you read from, when it comes to the TNK, (Torah, Prophets, Writings), if it is translated from the Masoretic Hebrew text, then you already have the oral Pharisee tradition embedded into the Hebrew text before it even gets rendered into your favorite English translation.



Amen.

Right, Torah is spiritual. (Why did you add "sometimes"?)

So instead of "symbolic", suppose we say "spiritual". I sense in your discussion about circumcision, you are leading up to a spiritual understanding of the law (as supposed to what is written in the Masoretic text).

Suppose, also, that we make the proposition:
Jesus kept the law spiritually, though he broke what has become the letter of the law.

Then finally, if changing the vowels changes the word (seems reasonable), is there any way to know what the original words were?

Or, bringing it around to the thread topic, is that why we can be thankful that we have Torah written on our heart? Because then we can look in our hearts and see what Torah says?

 

[Leaf473]

What I am hearing from anti-Torah people is that the Everlasting Word of the Father Most High cannot be trusted as faithful, enduring, and everlasting, even though HE HIMSELF says that it is.

I certainly trust the principles contained in Torah. I trust understanding that Torah is spiritual, and I assume it is Torah-as-spiritual that is written on our hearts.

Peace be with you

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, who does the "circumcision" has changed, but not its requirement for salvation. Jesus now does the "circumcision" and humans no longer do the "circumcision". The Jerusalem council did not eliminate "circumcision" when it provided a seed-list to add to, allowing for the adaption of Moses and everything that came before him by the Gentiles who were turning to God free of the added human traditions of Judaism that Jesus was against in the following passage.

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either. “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are! “Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’ Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred? And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne. (Matthew 23:13-22 NLT)​

James was not limiting what we need to obey, he was giving us permission to adopt Moses without forcing the human traditions of Judaism on us Gentiles, as we turn to God by giving us a seed, a beginning to add to. James saw us as the fulfillment of the prophecy where God would "restore the fallen house of David" as we listened to Moses every Sabbath. What that means is the equivalent of continuing Judaism without human traditions. The human traditions in Judaism led to death by sabotaging God's Ten Commandments so as not to take away sin that would otherwise have been taken away if they had done what God asked, instead of replacing what God asked with their own rules, in their "human effort" to help them obey the law by sabotaging the law so as not to take away sin, which made the law easier to bear. For example, in order not to use God's name in vain, Judaism added the human rule not to pronounce God's name to help obey God's law by preventing them from having to learn not to misuse His name. Judaism managed to bypass the active part of taking away their sin by replacing God's law with their own rule not to utter God's name at all.

When they had finished, James stood and said, “Brothers, listen to me. Peter has told you about the time God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people for himself. And this conversion of Gentiles is exactly what the prophets predicted. As it is written: ‘Afterward I will return and restore the fallen house of David. I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, so that the rest of humanity might seek the LORD, including the Gentiles—all those I have called to be mine. The LORD has spoken—he who made these things known so long ago.’ “And so my judgment is that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from eating food offered to idols, from sexual immorality, from eating the meat of strangled animals, and from consuming blood. For these laws of Moses has been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations.” (Acts 15:13-21 NLT fixed)​

One of the first adoptions of Moses and everything that came before Moses beyond the seed-list in Acts to add to the Eleven Commandments taught by Jesus, was taught by Paul that "circumcision" is now done by Jesus and no longer done by humans.

When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. (Colossians 2:11-12 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Who does the circumcision, and where it's done, has changed. I can say Amen to that

 

[Leaf473]

You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins...

Sounds very literal and physical to me. If someone says that has changed, then obviously we are not keeping the letters of the law today.

If we say the law is spiritual (Yes, I agree) what does that mean in practice? That we are circumcised by growing the fruit of the Spirit?

(That's an open question for anyone who wants to respond.)

Great scripture on my mind today:
These things will I remember
as I pour out my soul:
how I would lead the rejoicing crowd
into the house of God,
amid cries of gladness and thanksgiving,
the throng wild with joy.

Divine Office – Liturgy of the Hours of the Roman Catholic Church (Breviary)

 

[Leaf473]

...then nothing in the N/T is reliable either because it is only "Everlasting" until something new and better comes along.

I disagree that what you wrote necessarily follows.

The New Testament uses a different word for forever than the old (obviously, the New Testament using Greek and so on.)

καὶ βασιλεύσει ἐπὶ τὸν οἶκον Ἰακὼβ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, καὶ τῆς βασιλείας αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἔσται τέλος.

And he will reign over the house of Jacob to the ages (plural), and his kingdom won't have an end.
Luke 1

 

[Leaf473]

Exodus 31:16 OG LXX
16 και φυλαξουσιν οι υιοι ισραηλ τα σαββατα ποιειν αυτα εις τας γενεας αυτων διαθηκη αιωνιος

What do you suppose aionios (αιωνιος) means in the Apostolic writings?

I agree that the New Testament tends to speak of Forever in that formulation. However, that is no guarantee that the apostles meant the same thing that the Hebrew word means.

Do you consider the lxx to be inspired by God?

 

[daq]

I disagree that what you wrote necessarily follows.

The New Testament uses a different word for forever than the old (obviously, the New Testament using Greek and so on.)

καὶ βασιλεύσει ἐπὶ τὸν οἶκον Ἰακὼβ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, καὶ τῆς βασιλείας αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἔσται τέλος.

And he will reign over the house of Jacob to the ages (plural), and his kingdom won't have an end.
Luke 1

I agree that the New Testament tends to speak of Forever in that formulation. However, that is no guarantee that the apostles meant the same thing that the Hebrew word means.

Why did you cut off the N/T quote that was posted below the portion you snipped from my post?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yep! And I like how when James retells the story in Acts 21, he indicates that they told the gentiles something different:
"But as for the Gentiles who have become believers, we have sent them a letter..."

Yes... Acts 21 is hard to argue against...

Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

 

[Leaf473]

Why did you cut off the N/T quote that was posted below the portion you snipped from my post?

Because it didn't appear to me to be relevant to the question of whether every time the New Testament talks about Eternal, it is therefore unreliable.

Yes, the common way of speaking about eternity in the New Testament is to use some form of "ages". It does not follow that it has the same meaning as the Hebrew word often translated the same way.

_________________
While I am "all fired up" ( ) about words, there is also no guarantee that different New Testament writers will use the same word the same way, nor even the same author from one passage to the next.

I don't know very much about Hebrew, but did it drift at all from the very earliest biblical writings to the latest? Virtually all languages do, so I've read.

Possibly why we are reminded,
2 Timothy 2
Remind them of these things, charging them in the sight of the Lord, that they don’t argue about words, to no profit, to the subverting of those who hear.

And yes, I raise my hand for Guilty. Pray for me, my brothers and sisters!

 

[Guojing]

That was your second question. I answered your first question, and apparently you did not like the answer, then you asked the second question while ignoring both of the first two questions in my post to your friend. I notice also that your friend did not answer the two questions either, and decided to leave the forum, and he didn't even acknowledge that I had responded to one of his posts with the Testimony of the Messiah which included those same two questions you responded to without answering either one of them.

You are reasoning as if I have a "gang" here, with various friends who I gang up with to ask you questions.

I don't know who the other guy is, what he does has nothing to do with me.

The only question I asked you was "Would you consider the present Messianic Jews, such as yourself, as current members of the House of Israel?"

It was a simple yes or no question, and it was a polite one.

 

[expos4ever]

One of your primary claims was that the Messiah intentionally broke the Shabbat according to (your misunderstanding of) John 5:1-18 in order to show the people that he was about to bring an end to the Torah.

It is not actually one of my primary claims. I believe it is at least plausible that what Jesus ordered the man to do "broke" the Sabbath law.

Exodus 31:12-18 KJV
12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Therefore your version of the Messiah was put to death for his own sin, breaking the Shabbat commandment which is a perpetual covenant, and did not die for your sins.

What is the Hebrew word rendered as "perpetual" in verse 16? It is, again, "owlam". And what is the defintion of "owlam"? It is, according to Strong's, this:

long duration, antiquity, futurity

As one can see, there is no basis to exclude a meaning that entails a finite duration.

And what about "forever" from verse 17?

Same word - no necessity of a truly "eternal" interpretation.

Here is a nice example:

John 12:49-50 KJV
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: [αιωνιος] whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

LOL, Life everlasting? Canceled by the cancel culture word wizards!

Here is Strong's definition for this word "":

agelong, eternal

If Strong's is right, then "eternal" is at least a plausible interpretation so I do not think you argument is convincing.

To summarize: the english translators Exodus texts you have presented have chosen to interpret "owlam" as "eternal". But, as I have shown, there is reason to question whether "age-long" might not also be a reasonable interpretation. In fact, here the Young's Literal Translation of Exodus 31:17:

between Me and the sons of Israel it [is] a sign -- to the age; for six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, and in the seventh day He hath ceased, and is refreshed.

No "eternal" in this literal translation.

By contrast, the John text at least allows for an "eternal" rendering. Now, to be fair, I am not denying that "owlam" (Exodus text) could be translated as eternal, but that is not the point. All I need to do is to show that it does not have to be translated that way.

 

[daq]

I do not think you argument is convincing.

My goal is to believe the scripture and walk in it pleasing to the Father: and if I can be of any help to anyone else in offering up here things that the Master has taught me in our walk, that is what I hope to do. What you think, and what I think, are not the things I wish to discuss. If you do not wish to believe the scriptures that are posted and the Logos and logic therein, then there isn't much else for us to talk about. And since you are here to teach people that the Messiah broke the Torah, in order to bring it to an end, we surely have nothing in common.

 

[daq]

The only question I asked you was "Would you consider the present Messianic Jews, such as yourself, as current members of the House of Israel?"

It was a simple yes or no question, and it was a polite one.

I answered you yet again, and even explained why I choose not to answer that question with a yes or no: and that answer was in the post that you have quoted herein, but you snipped the answer out of my post and pretend I have not answered you. Is deception also polite according to you? All this because you refused to answer my two scripture-based questions in the initial post of mine which you responded to. You may not be willing to drop this but I am dropping it here because this back and forth has nothing to do with the thread topic.

 

[AbbaLove]

Why all this ranting about me out of nowhere?

To [Wake U Up] Get Your Attention to THINK about the Thread's Title. Where in this thread is even one Biblical explanation of ...YHWH's Renewed Covenant? What may seem as "hate" is actually brotherly tuff love.

Isn't the thread title really a question for the Messianic Judaism forum when it comes to using the Hebrew tetragrammaton - YHWH in the Title of this thread? The best account is found in the Hebrew Tanakh ... Joshua 8:30:35 ... (and the aliens who resided among them.)

The first of two covenant renewal ceremonies in Joshua (the other is in Joshua 24), this passage in chapter 8 tells of an assembly at Mount Gerizim and Mount Ebal, near the city of Shechem (though Shechem is not mentioned explicitly). Joshua builds an altar where sacrifices are offered; he writes down the law of Moses on the stones, then reads the words of the law–both blessings and curses–to the people. This ceremony fulfills to the letter the command of the Lord in Deuteronomy 27 to hold such a ceremony (see also Deuteronomy 11:29-30). In this passage, as in the rest of the book, Joshua is depicted as an exemplary leader: “As the LORD had commanded his servant Moses, so Moses commanded Joshua, and so Joshua did; he left nothing undone of all that the LORD had commanded Moses” (Joshua 11:15).

Was the OP just throwing out a Thread Title curveball to see who would make contack ? What seemed like a "rant" to you could be due to you being blindsided (derailed) by man's religious "theology" ... thus my WAKEUP CALL

 

[daq]

To [Wake U Up] Get Your Attention to THINK about the Thread's Title. Where in this thread is even one Biblical explanation of ...YHWH's Renewed Covenant? What may seem as "hate" is actually brotherly tuff love.

I already informed you that I am not the one who started this thread: so I have no clue why you think I am the one who should be held responsible for your demand that there be a "Biblical explanation of ...YHWH's Renewed Covenant" in this thread. Please direct your "brotherly tuff love" to the one who started this thread and let's see if you will "tuff love" him in the same way you are attempting to show your love for me. I do believe his name is @HARK!

Isn't the thread title really a question for the Messianic Judaism forum when it comes to using the Hebrew tetragrammaton - YHWH in the Title of this thread? The best account is found in the Hebrew Tanakh ... Joshua 8:30:35 ... (and the aliens who resided among them.)

This is another question which you should be directing to the author of this thread, HARK!

Was the OP just throwing out a Thread Title curveball to see who would make contack ?

I have no clue: ask the originator of the thread, HARK!

What seemed like a "rant" to you could be due to you being blindsided (derailed) by man's religious "theology" ... thus my WAKEUP CALL

...Someone surely needs to wake up.

 

[Guojing]

I answered you yet again, and even explained why I choose not to answer that question with a yes or no: and that answer was in the post that you have quoted herein, but you snipped the answer out of my post and pretend I have not answered you. Is deception also polite according to you? All this because you refused to answer my two scripture-based questions in the initial post of mine which you responded to. You may not be willing to drop this but I am dropping it here because this back and forth has nothing to do with the thread topic.

So you don't want to answer a yes or no question, with a yes or no.

Just make that clear and I will move on.

 

[daq]

So you don't want to answer a yes or no question, with a yes or no.

Just make that clear and I will move on.

Who then is the faithful and wise servant whom his Master has set over his household to give them their food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his Master, when he comes, shall find him so doing. Amen, I say to you, that he will set him over all that he has. But if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My Master tarries long! and shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards: the Master of that servant shall come in a day when he expects it not, and in an hour he knows not, in a moment, in the blink of an eye. And he will cut that servant in half and appoint the hypocrite to his portion with the hypocrites. And the nazir, whose head of his consecration has been defiled by the dead soul that died beside him, shall purify himself the seven days for the one who has been defiled by the dead. And in the seventh day he shall be clean, and he shall shave his head in the seventh day: and in the eighth day he shall bring his offering to the Kohen at the door, who shall make atonement for him.

Clear enough?

 

[AbbaLove]

Knowing the OP you might have known that HARK (MJ) is more likely referring to the Renewed Covenant in the Hebrew Tanakh (read Joshua). It's also [just as] more likely HARK was referring to the Renewed Covenant that is yet to come (read Jeremiah). In either case a curveball that somehow escaped your perceptive notice. Not like you ...

​

“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts.I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

​

This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “When I bring them back from captivity, the people in the land of Judah and in its towns will once again use these words: ‘The Lord bless you, you prosperous city, you sacred mountain.’ People will live together in Judah and all its towns—farmers and those who move about with their flocks. I will refresh the weary and satisfy the faint.”

​

26 At this I awoke and looked around. My sleep had been pleasant to me.

Wakeup! ... right back at you brother daq ... (pleasant dreams)

 

[daq]

Knowing the OP you might have known that HARK (MJ) is more likely referring to the Renewed Covenant in the Hebrew Tanakh (read Joshua). It's also [just as] more likely HARK was referring to the Renewed Covenant that is yet to come (read Jeremiah). In either case a curveball that somehow escaped your perceptive notice. Not like you ...

​

​

​

Wakeup! ... right back at you brother daq ... (pleasant dreams)

Perhaps you might review my most recent post directly above yours herein, where circumcision of the heart is explained by the Torah, and especially in Exodus 33:4-6, Numbers 6 and the Nazarite vow, and by the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts, and by Yakob the Tzaddik in Acts 21:17-24, and by Paul in his writings, and understand that your old man nature is the excess, the fat, and the foreskin of your heart that must be cut away.

Understand also that when the prince of the power of the air and unclean spirit of the world is cast out he traverses through dry-arid places seeking rest: and finding none, he says, I will return to my house from where I came forth. And when he comes, he finds it swept and garnished. Then he goes and associates unto himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself: and they enter therein, and dwell there, and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

Get back to me with your "tuff love" when you have understood these things according to the Testimony of the Master in the renewed covenant mindset of the Meshiah which the natural mind cannot comprehend because he rejects the Torah and Prophets as applying to himself.

26 At this I awoke and looked around. My sleep had been pleasant to me.

Jeremiah 31:26-30 KJV
26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.
27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, [Jude 1:4, Sefer Henok] and with the seed of beast. [Hosea 13, Daniel 7, Revelation 13]
28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.