How many Gentiles and Samaritans could have been saved if Jesus would have sent some disciples there?

[Grafted In]

None.

 

[Hammster]

“What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
— Luke 15:4

Is this also a general system?

What’s the context?

 

[Hammster]

Sheep is a metaphor for follower - so before you would not be His sheep. I don't see the metaphor "goat" used in scripture until the judgement. Jesus frequently used parables and metaphores. But in Acts and the Epistles, we see the use of metaphores and parables go away.

When we believe on Him we transition from one kingdom to another. Praise God we did not die after entering the age of accountability and before we believed on Him.

John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.​

​

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.​

The interesting thing is that scripture doesn’t say that Jesus died for goats.

 

[John Mullally]

The interesting thing is that scripture doesn’t say that Jesus died for goats.

Jesus gave His life for all men (1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2), but the benefit is only received by those who believe in Him (which would be the sheep). That does not contradict John 10:11.

John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.​

Since Jesus took upon Himself the “sin of the world,” (John 1:29), His atonement is therefore available to all, though is only received by those who place their faith in Him, just like His illustration at John 3:14-15 of Numbers 21:6-9 shows. Before a person looked upon the serpent on a standard, was anyone healed (in Numbers 21:8-9)? Before a person believes in Jesus, is anyone saved (in John 3:15)? God Himself established the condition, but Calvinists seek to revise God’s condition to imply that the atonement itself completes a transaction, in which the atonement itself does something to the individual which produces faith.

​

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” (NIV)​

​

Numbers 21:8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived. (NIV)​

​

1 Timothy 4:10 has God as the savior of all people, especially of those who believe. God provided the atonement for all people (thus He is savior of all people). Why is the phrase "especially of those who believe" included? It is included because only those who believe are saved (John 3:15) - again the atonement is only received by those who believe.

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. (NIV)​

​

The purpose of an analogy is to help someone understand. Applicable analogy: The ateonement is like a check that can only be cashed by faith.

 

[zoidar]

What’s the context?

In Luke 15 the Pharisees grumble over that Jesus eats with sinners and Jesus tells them three parables to show them that it brings great joy to God when any sinner repents.

In Matthew 18:10-14 Jesus is telling that God doesn't want any believer to persish and how great the joy is to God when He finds a sinner.

 

[zoidar]

The interesting thing is that scripture doesn’t say that Jesus died for goats.

An interesting thing is that Jesus doesn't refer to the Jews as goats in John 10 (That is something Calvinists add to Scripture, sadly so) or anywhere in the Bible as far as know. That should tell you something.

I'll tell you what it means. That they are neither referred to as sheep or goat, which means it's not yet settled at the time when Jesus speaks to them.

 

[zoidar]

Let’s see what He said.

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
— John 10:26

If your statement was true, it’s nonsensical because they would need to believe in order to follow. Your statement is akin to saying that they are unbelievers because they don’t believe.

Does it somewhere say why they are not His sheep?

 

[zoidar]

Jesus gave His life for all men (1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2), but the benefit is only received by those who believe in Him (which would be the sheep). That does not contradict John 10:11.

John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.​

Since Jesus took upon Himself the “sin of the world,” (John 1:29), His atonement is therefore available to all, though is only received by those who place their faith in Him, just like His illustration at John 3:14-15 of Numbers 21:6-9 shows. Before a person looked upon the serpent on a standard, was anyone healed (in Numbers 21:8-9)? Before a person believes in Jesus, is anyone saved (in John 3:15)? God Himself established the condition, but Calvinists seek to revise God’s condition to imply that the atonement itself completes a transaction, in which the atonement itself does something to the individual which produces faith.

​

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” (NIV)​

​

Numbers 21:8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived. (NIV)​

​

1 Timothy 4:10 has God as the savior of all people, especially of those who believe. God provided the atonement for all people (thus He is savior of all people). Why is the phrase "especially of those who believe" included? It is included because only those who believe are saved (John 3:15) - again the atonement is only received by those who believe.

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. (NIV)​

​

The purpose of an analogy is to help someone understand. Applicable analogy: The ateonement is like a check that can only be cashed by faith.

I gave you the "winner" icon, but I will say I'm not too fond of the analogy of the atonement being like a check. To me that's a simplified or incomplete picture. But as far as analogies go, I guess there is no perfect one. God bless!

 

[Hammster]

Jesus gave His life for all men (1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2), but the benefit is only received by those who believe in Him (which would be the sheep). That does not contradict John 10:11.

John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.​

Since Jesus took upon Himself the “sin of the world,” (John 1:29), His atonement is therefore available to all, though is only received by those who place their faith in Him, just like His illustration at John 3:14-15 of Numbers 21:6-9 shows. Before a person looked upon the serpent on a standard, was anyone healed (in Numbers 21:8-9)? Before a person believes in Jesus, is anyone saved (in John 3:15)? God Himself established the condition, but Calvinists seek to revise God’s condition to imply that the atonement itself completes a transaction, in which the atonement itself does something to the individual which produces faith.

​

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” (NIV)​

​

Numbers 21:8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived. (NIV)​

​

1 Timothy 4:10 has God as the savior of all people, especially of those who believe. God provided the atonement for all people (thus He is savior of all people). Why is the phrase "especially of those who believe" included? It is included because only those who believe are saved (John 3:15) - again the atonement is only received by those who believe.

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. (NIV)​

​

The purpose of an analogy is to help someone understand. Applicable analogy: The ateonement is like a check that can only be cashed by faith.

You have to stick with the text in question. When you jump all over, you can make the Bible say whatever you want. We are discussing John 10, and you said sheep is a metaphor for follower. You correctly quoted that Jesus said He laid down His life for the sheep. Also in John 10 we see that the sheep are given to Jesus by His Father.

My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:29

These are the same sheep we see in v. 11. So either Jesus died everyone, or He died for the sheep given to Him by His Father.

 

[Hammster]

In Luke 15 the Pharisees grumble over that Jesus eats with sinners and Jesus tells them three parables to show them that it brings great joy to God when any sinner repents.

In Matthew 18:10-14 Jesus is telling that God doesn't want any believer to persish and how great the joy is to God when He finds a sinner.

Okay. I don’t see how that goes against anything I’ve said.

 

[Hammster]

An interesting thing is that Jesus doesn't refer to the Jews as goats in John 10 (That is something Calvinists add to Scripture, sadly so) or anywhere in the Bible as far as know. That should tell you something.

I'll tell you what it means. That they are neither referred to as sheep or goat, which means it's not yet settled at the time when Jesus speaks to them.

It seemed pretty settled when He said,

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
— John 10:26

 

[Hammster]

I gave you the "winner" icon, but I will say I'm not too fond of the analogy of the atonement being like a check. To me that's a simplified or incomplete picture. But as far as analogies go, I guess there is no perfect one. God bless!

How about the one where the Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep, and loses none of them.

 

[zoidar]

Okay. I don’t see how that goes against anything I’ve said.

I just find it strange that in one them you see the shepherd as Jesus and in the other you don't. The reason you have given is quite vague, something with one being a general idea and the other being in a different context.

 

[zoidar]

It seemed pretty settled when He said,

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
— John 10:26

Jesus still doesn't call them goats. What you have given is no argument against them being neither sheep or goats. It just says they are not sheep.

 

[Hammster]

I just find it strange that in one them you see the shepherd as Jesus and in the other you don't. The reason you have given is quite vague, something with one being a general idea and the other being in a different context.

Let’s say that Jesus is a shepherd in both. Is He a good shepherd who would never lose the sheep that He’s responsible for?

 

[Hammster]

Jesus still doesn't call them goats. What you have given is no argument against them being neither sheep or goats. It just says they are not sheep.

It’s not what they are that’s important. It’s what they aren’t that is important.

 

[zoidar]

Let’s see what He said.

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
— John 10:26

If your statement was true, it’s nonsensical because they would need to believe in order to follow. Your statement is akin to saying that they are unbelievers because they don’t believe.

Does it somewhere say why they are not His sheep?

Jesus is saying they don't believe in him, since they don't believe in the prophets. If they believed the prophets, they would be his sheep.

This pretty much explains it all:

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. I do not receive glory from men; but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
— John 5:39-47

 

[Hammster]

I will tell you why. They do not believe the testimonies given by the prophets about Jesus. If they believed the prophets, they would be his sheep.


Jesus is saying they don't believe in him, since they don't believe in the prophets.

It doesn’t say that anywhere.

 

[zoidar]

Let’s say that Jesus is a shepherd in both. Is He a good shepherd who would never lose the sheep that He’s responsible for?

Who says Jesus is responsible for the sheep? It's us believers being responsible to him.

Since it says "if" it sounds to me not all sheep will be found Jesus is "looking for".

 

[zoidar]

It doesn’t say that anywhere.

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. I do not receive glory from men; but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
— John 5:39-47

It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
— John 6:45