How many Gentiles and Samaritans could have been saved if Jesus would have sent some disciples there?

[Kent M]

These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
— Matthew 10:5-6

So here we have Jesus deliberately telling His disciples to not go to the Gentiles nor the Samaritans. How many Gentiles and Samaritans could have been saved if Jesus would have sent some disciples there?

This saved Gentile says that is NOT true.. "Now the 11 disciples went to Galilee to the mountain, to which Jesus had directed them.. And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father,and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you until the end of the age." (Matthew 28:16-20)

 

[Hammster]

If the people are called sheep in Matt 9, not only the elect, why would Jesus limit sheep in Matt 10 to just the elect?

They aren’t called sheep in Matt 9. He said they were like sheep without a shepherd. It’s a different distinction.

 

[Hammster]

This saved Gentile says that is NOT true.. "Now the 11 disciples went to Galilee to the mountain, to which Jesus had directed them.. And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father,and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you until the end of the age." (Matthew 28:16-20)

That happened well after chapter 10. And it doesn’t address the OP.

 

[zoidar]

They aren’t called sheep in Matt 9. He said they were like sheep without a shepherd. It’s a different distinction.

I think it's the same sheep being referred to as the lost sheep in Matt 10. But I know your theology isn't allowing that.

Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
— Matthew 15:21-24

Jesus healed even those not of the elect, so why would it be a problem to heal this woman's daughter? Well, because Jesus was sent to the Jews, not only to the elect Jews. If Jesus would be sent only to the elect Jews, then there wouldn't be an argument against her, since he healed non elect people of Israel who he according to your theology wasn't sent for.

“What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray.
— Matthew 18:12-13

 

[Hammster]

I think it's the same sheep being referred to as the lost sheep in Matt 10. But I know your theology isn't allowing that.

It’s the language. One is a metaphor. One is a simile. They are different.

Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
— Matthew 15:21-24

Jesus healed even those not of the elect, so why would it be a problem to heal this woman's daughter? Well, because Jesus was sent to the Jews, not only to the elect Jews. If Jesus would be sent only to the elect Jews, then there wouldn't be an argument against her, since he healed non elect people of Israel who he according to your theology wasn't sent for.

So you admit that some are elect. Good start.

“What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray.
— Matthew 18:12-13

Jesus always finds His sheep.

 

[zoidar]

It’s the language. One is a metaphor. One is a simile. They are different.

I know the language is different. I just think you need to re-evaluate how the Bible uses the word "sheep".

So you admit that some are elect. Good start.

I spoke from your perspective. But of course I believe in election... To be honest with you I'm not fully done investigating this, and you might see that as a good thing.

Jesus always finds His sheep.

I say like you do, is that what Matthew 18:13 say?

 

[Hammster]

I know the language is different. I just think you need to re-evaluate how the Bible uses the word "sheep".

I have. There a difference between saying someone is something, and someone acts like something. They are very distinct.

I spoke from your perspective. But of course I believe in election... To be honest with you I'm not fully done investigating this, and you might see that as a good thing.

I say like you do, is that what Matthew 18:13 say?

It seems that your implication was that Jesus doesn’t always find lost sheep. Maybe I misunderstood your point.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
— Matthew 10:5-6

So here we have Jesus deliberately telling His disciples to not go to the Gentiles nor the Samaritans. How many Gentiles and Samaritans could have been saved if Jesus would have sent some disciples there?

What about the more local hermeneutical work that needs to be done here when reading Matthew 10:5-6 in isolation from the rest of what Matthew has written?

 

[zoidar]

It seems that your implication was that Jesus doesn’t always find lost sheep. Maybe I misunderstood your point.

You understood me correct. That is my implication from Matthew 18:13. It does say "if".

 

[Hammster]

What about the more local hermeneutical work that needs to be done here when reading Matthew 10:5-6 in isolation from the rest of what Matthew has written?

You’ll need to explain this.

 

[Hammster]

You understood me correct. That is my implication from Matthew 18:13. It does say "if".

There’s no if in regards to the sheep that Jesus is responsible for.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:27-29

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You’ll need to explain this.

Well brother, my exegetical point is that in our contextually aware reading of this passage alone, we find more than one line of time sensitive thought spliced together by Matthew. This splice is such that from Matthew 10:1-15, Jesus seems to explain the more local, Jewishly oriented focus of His sending out of the 12 disciplies. But from Matthew 10:16-41, we find a more generalized set of implications which may be more expansive and refer to not only the present moment in which Jesus was sending the 12, but to the overall nature of the evangelizing aspect the Chuch as a whole was to take on into the world, even into the Gentile world.

I can say more, and I'm sure you can too, but I want us to think about the connotations which Matthew 10:18 may have in relation to Matthew 10:5-6.

P.S. Perhaps someone in this thread has already pointed this out, but since I haven't read the entire thread, I'm just presenting what comes to my mind exegetically as I read this passage.

 

[zoidar]

There’s no if in regards to the sheep that Jesus is responsible for.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:27-29

Hm, what sheep do you think are referred to in Matthew 18:13 then?

 

[John Mullally]

There’s no if in regards to the sheep that Jesus is responsible for.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:27-29

1. “My sheep” is an metaphor used in the first century to indicate “one who follows me.” Sheep were followers.

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2. This is Jesus’ way of simply saying, “You do not believe because you are not following Me, just as you were not following my Father before Me.” If they had been followers of the Father, He would have gladly given and drawn them to His Son. The objectors were not right with God, and Jesus was calling attention to that fact, in order to truly help them, which is because Jesus really does love His enemies. Jesus came to save the condemned, not to condemn those who are already condemned.

3. It’s certainly not the same as saying, “You do not believe because you weren’t elected from before the foundation of the world.”

4. While it’s true that they were not of God and were not of Christ’s sheep, what did Jesus tell them? He said of those who were “not of My sheep” to consider the evidence of the miracles so that they can become one of His sheep: “‘If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.’” (John 10:37-38) So people who do not believe in Jesus and who are declared by Him to not be one of His sheep (followers), still can be. Their predicament was not fixed and unchangeable.

We understand that these people being rebuked by Christ are “goats” principally because of their refusal to listen and learn from the Father, rather than for something with which they had absolutely no control over (i.e. Total Inability from Birth). Those who did willingly listen and learn from the Father would desire to follow the Son as well (be His sheep), which is why they believe the Son. So if it helps, just exchange the word “sheep” with the word “follower” at John 10:25-27 and the result is that Jesus’ intent becomes quite clear.

 

[Hammster]

Hm, what sheep do you think are referred to in Matthew 18:13 then?

I think it’s just a general system. I don’t think there’s a reference to Jesus being the shepherd.

 

[Hammster]

This is Jesus’ way of simply saying, “You do not believe because you are not following Me, just as you were not following my Father before Me.”

Let’s see what He said.

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
— John 10:26

If your statement was true, it’s nonsensical because they would need to believe in order to follow. Your statement is akin to saying that they are unbelievers because they don’t believe.

 

[John Mullally]

Let’s see what He said.

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
— John 10:26

If your statement was true, it’s nonsensical because they would need to believe in order to follow. Your statement is akin to saying that they are unbelievers because they don’t believe.

Under the convition of the Holy Spirit, faith becomes our choice. Scripture says that faith comes by hearing (Romans 10:17) and God is not a forcer who will make people listen. If unbelievers under the conviction of the Holy Spirit choose to side with the Holy Spirit and listen to God's word, they transition to becoming believers. We see this happening to 3000 people in Acts 2:36-41.

Jesus is the good shepherd who leads the sheep. He is not the good cowboy who drives (or forces) the herd. The Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51).

4. While it’s true that they were not of God and were not of Christ’s sheep, what did Jesus tell them? He said of those who were “not of My sheep” to consider the evidence of the miracles so that they can become one of His sheep: “‘If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.’” (John 10:37-38) So people who do not believe in Jesus and who are declared by Him to not be one of His sheep (followers), still can be. Their predicament was not fixed and unchangeable.

Jesus's and John the Baptist's messages were disruptive to the existing Jewish religious system - and the leaders who lacked the best motives naturally resisted because they did not want to lose their position in society. It was these miracles (in poinit 4 above) that convinced Nicodemus to come to Jesus in John 3.

 

[Hammster]

Under the convition of the Holy Spirit, faith becomes our choice. Scripture says that faith comes by hearing (Romans 10:17) and God is not a forcer who will make people listen. If unbelievers under the conviction of the Holy Spirit choose to side with the Holy Spirit and listen to God's word, they transition to becoming believers. We see this happening to 3000 people in Acts 2:36-41.

Jesus is the good shepherd who leads the sheep. He is not the good cowboy who drives (or forces) the herd. The Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51).

Jesus's and John the Baptist's messages were disruptive to the existing Jewish religious system - and the leaders who lacked the best motives naturally resisted because they did not want to lose their position in society. It was these miracles (in poinit 4 above) that convinced Nicodemus to come to Jesus in John 3.

What were they before they were sheep?

 

[zoidar]

I think it’s just a general system. I don’t think there’s a reference to Jesus being the shepherd.

“What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
— Luke 15:4

Is this also a general system?

 

[John Mullally]

What were they before they were sheep?

Sheep is a metaphor for follower - so before you would not be His sheep. I don't see the metaphor "goat" used in scripture until the judgement. Jesus frequently used parables and metaphores. But in Acts and the Epistles, we see the use of metaphores and parables go away.

When we believe on Him we transition from one kingdom to another. Praise God we did not die after entering the age of accountability and before we believed on Him.

John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.​

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Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.​