And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

[Der Alte]

Yes, not scripture. The interpreters of scripture. Like your anonymous 1904 committee that produced some translation. I prefer more proximate interpretations of scripture.

Have you ever reviewed the credentials of the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB. Talk about anonymous, as a matter of fact you haven't identified any of your "sources." Lots of folks just find something, by somebody, somewhere as long as it supports their assumptions/presuppositions.

 

[PuerAzaelis]

The Iraneus quote is from here

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.23 (St. Irenaeus)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, not scripture. The interpreters of scripture. Like your anonymous 1904 committee that produced some translation. I prefer more proximate interpretations of scripture.

Everything you have said is from anonymous sources. It appears you prefer anything from any anonymous source which supports your assumptions/presuppositions.

 

[PuerAzaelis]

By the way since Augustine did not have Greek that is not exactly an advertisement for any of the Augustinian system or tradition.

 

[Der Alte]

The Iraneus quote is from here

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.23 (St. Irenaeus)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

The Augustine quote is in here somewhere:

CHURCH FATHERS: City of God, Book XXI (St. Augustine)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

Sorry amigo, I do not have the time or inclination to search through those links trying to find what you quoted. I am not interested in the opinions of anyone, including ECF, unless they are quoting and exegeting scripture. As for Augustine don't bother that quote only shows what Augustine might have observed in his location in North Africa. It reveals nothing about anything on any other continent.

 

[Der Alte]

By the way since Augustine did not have Greek that is not exactly an advertisement for any of the Augustinian system or tradition.

Fine by me I have never read any of his writings. I keep getting the accusations all the time, Augustine this, latin that etc. etc. That is just a cop-out for folks who can't refute my posts.

 

[PuerAzaelis]

The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T.
2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.

The word κόλασις (kolasis) originally meant “pruning” or “docking” or “obviating the growth” of trees or other plants, and then came to mean “confinement,” “being held in check,” “punishment,” or “chastisement,” chiefly with the connotation of “correction.” Classically, the word was distinguished (by Aristotle, for instance) from τιμωρία (timōria), which means a retributive punishment only. Whether such a distinction holds here is difficult to say, since by late antiquity kolasis seems to have been used by many to describe punishment of any kind; but the only other use of the noun in the New Testament is in 1 John 4:18, where it refers not to retributive punishment, but to the suffering experienced by someone who is subject to fear because not yet perfected in charity. The verbal form, κολάζω (kolazō), appears twice: in Acts 4:21, where it clearly refers only to disciplinary punishment, and in 2 Peter 2:9 in reference to fallen angels and unrighteous men, where it probably means “being held in check” or “penned in” [until the day of judgment].

The New Testament: A Translation (p. 62). Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.

 

[PuerAzaelis]

no, zero, none

Nowhere is there any description of a kingdom of perpetual cruelty presided over by Satan, as though he were a kind of chthonian god.

 

[fhansen]

John 12:32

(32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.​

According to followers of Universal Reconciliation [UR] this verse really means "Christ will forcibly drag all men to Himself," implying kicking and screaming if necessary. This assumption is made because ἑλκύσω/elkuso, the Greek word translated "draw," sometimes refers to actions which would require forcible dragging such as fish nets full of fish see e.g. John 21:6. But the very same word "elkuso" is used to refer to drawing a sword which requires no forcible dragging, at all, John 18:10. It can be done easily and quickly with one hand.
Is there any mention of this supposed forcible dragging of "all men" anywhere in the N.T?
.....There is no forcible dragging when Christ is seated on His throne of glory and all nations are gathered before Him.

Matthew 25:46 And these [on the left. vs. 41] shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​

.....There is no forcible dragging on judgement day when many, not a few, will come to Jesus and mention all the "wonderful works" they have done in his name but He will say to those many.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

.....There is no forcible dragging at the Great White throne judgement. ​

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

​

​

​

​

​

​

We can be drawn, but we still aren't forced to follow.

 

[Der Alte]

Nowhere is there any description of a kingdom of perpetual cruelty presided over by Satan, as though he were a kind of chthonian god.

This addresses my post, how?

 

[Der Alte]

The word κόλασις (kolasis) originally meant “pruning” or “docking” or “obviating the growth” of trees or other plants, and then came to mean “confinement,” “being held in check,” “punishment,” or “chastisement,” chiefly with the connotation of “correction.” Classically, the word was distinguished (by Aristotle, for instance) from τιμωρία (timōria), which means a retributive punishment only. Whether such a distinction holds here is difficult to say, since by late antiquity kolasis seems to have been used by many to describe punishment of any kind; but the only other use of the noun in the New Testament is in 1 John 4:18, where it refers not to retributive punishment, but to the suffering experienced by someone who is subject to fear because not yet perfected in charity. The verbal form, κολάζω (kolazō), appears twice: in Acts 4:21, where it clearly refers only to disciplinary punishment, and in 2 Peter 2:9 in reference to fallen angels and unrighteous men, where it probably means “being held in check” or “penned in” [until the day of judgment].

The New Testament: A Translation (p. 62). Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.

Emended to add; Did a quick search on this "translation." It is the product of a single individual David Bently Hart an avowed Universal Reconciliationist.
So the early 1900s Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible is correct when they translated "kolasis" twice as punishment.
.....The first statement here is very vague.

"The word κόλασις (kolasis) originally meant “pruning” or “docking” or “obviating the growth” of trees or other plants, and then came to mean “confinement,” “being held in check,” “punishment,” or “chastisement,” chiefly with the connotation of “correction.”​

To give this statement some meaning the writer should have provided some historical examples. See e.g. BDAG, below. Otherwise it is just some "scholar" stating his unsupported opinion.
...Here is the definition of kolasis from the current edition of Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich which represents about 120-160 years of combined scholarship.
Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, one of if not the most highly accredited Greek lexicons currently available. Please note the words correction, pruning etc. do not appear anywhere!
Blue highlights indicate 40+ sources the authors consulted in determining the correct meaning. Which OBTW Hart is sorely lacking.

κόλασις, εως, ἡ (s. prec. three entries; ‘punishment, chastisement’ so Hippocr.+; Diod S 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian, VH 7, 15; SIG2 680, 13; LXX; TestAbr, Test12Patr, ApcEsdr, ApcSed; AscIs 3:13; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos., Ant. 17, 164; SibOr 5, 388; Ar. [Milne 76, 43]; Just.)​

① infliction of suffering or pain in chastisement, punishment so lit. κ. ὑπομένειν undergo punishment Ox 840, 6; δειναὶ κ. (4 Macc 8:9) MPol 2:4; ἡ ἐπίμονος κ. long-continued torture ibid. Of the martyrdom of Jesus (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 48, 95; 8, 43, 12) PtK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices by polytheists ironically described as punishment, injury (s. κολάζω) Dg 2:9.​

② transcendent retribution, punishment (ApcSed 4:1 κόλασις καὶ πῦρ ἐστιν ἡ παίδευσίς σου.— Diod S 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos., Ant. 1, 60 al.; Just.; Did., Gen., 115, 28; 158, 10) ApcPt 17:32; w. αἰκισμός 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal punishment (w. θάνατος) Dg 9:2 (Diod S 8, 15, 1 κ. ἀθάνατος). Of hell: τόπος κολάσεως ApcPt 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον αἱ κολάσεως δεόμεναι ψυχαὶ καταπέμπονται); ἐν τῇ κ. ἐκείνῃ 10:25; ibid. ἐφορῶσαι τὴν κ. ἐκείνων (cp. ApcEsdr 5:10 p. 30, 2 Tdf. ἐν τῇ κ.). ἐκ τῆς κ. ApcPt Rainer (cp. ἐκ τὴν κ. ApcSed 8:12a; εἰς τὴν κ. 12b and TestAbr B 11 p. 116, 10 [Stone p. 80]). ἀπέρχεσθαι εἰς κ. αἰώνιον go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 (οἱ τῆς κ. ἄξιοι ἀπελεύσονται εἰς αὐτήν Iren. 2, 33, 5 [Harv. I 380, 8]; κ. αἰώνιον as TestAbr A 11 p. 90, 7f [Stone p. 28]; TestReub 5:5; TestGad 7:5; Just., A I, 8, 4; D. 117, 3; Celsus 8, 48; pl. Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 90, 13]). ῥύεσθαι ἐκ τῆς αἰωνίου κ. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. τὴν αἰώνιον κ. ἐξαγοράζεσθαι buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3 v.l. κακαὶ κ. τοῦ διαβόλου IRo 5:3. κ. τινος punishment for someth. Ezk 14:3, 7; 18:30; (Philo, Fuga 65 ἁμαρτημάτων κ.) ἔχειν κόλασίν τινα τῆς πονηρίας αὐτοῦ Hs 9, 18, 1. ἀναπαύστως ἕξουσιν τὴν κ. they will suffer unending punishment ApcPt Bodl. 9–12. ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 (cp. Philo, In Flacc. 96 φόβος κολάσεως).—M-M. TW.[1]​

[1] William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 555.​

That boys and girls is how real scholarship is done.

 

[Der Alte]

We can be drawn, but we still aren't forced to follow.

Isn't there an old adage about a horse and water? God or Jesus could force all mankind to follow but not one single vs. states that they do.

 

[Der Alte]

Wherefore also he drove him out of paradise and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not be immortal and the evil interminable and irremediable.

Iraneaus of Lyons

Hint. Do your own research don't copy/paste from second hand sources.

Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book V. Chap. XXVII
2. But on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God. He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separation from God consists in the loss of all the benefits which He has in store. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending.​

 

[Der Alte]

By the way since Augustine did not have Greek that is not exactly an advertisement for any of the Augustinian system or tradition.

You say that like it is a bad thing. For me that is just fine, I have never quoted or referred to anything Augustine wrote. As a matter of fact, I never read anything Augustine wrote until someone posted a "quote" from him here a few months ago. Here is what Augustine supposedly said, "when Augustine described the Universalists as "indeed very many" (immo quam plurimi), what he meant is that they were a "vast majority." FYI the Latin for "vast majority" is "Magna Pars."
I have been frequently accused of Augustinian and Latin influence. But alas none of the accusers could point to anything specific. Read my posts carefully and let me know if you can find anything which is not scriptural. But first know I studied biblical languages about 4 decades ago and have the current editions of the BDB Hebrew lexicon and the BGAD Greek lexicon and I am more than willing to post the complete definitions from either or both.

 

[Der Alte]

The word κόλασις (kolasis) originally meant “pruning” or “docking” or “obviating the growth” of trees or other plants, and then came to mean “confinement,” “being held in check,” “punishment,” or “chastisement,” chiefly with the connotation of “correction.” Classically, the word was distinguished (by Aristotle, for instance) from τιμωρία (timōria), which means a retributive punishment only. Whether such a distinction holds here is difficult to say, since by late antiquity kolasis seems to have been used by many to describe punishment of any kind; but the only other use of the noun in the New Testament is in 1 John 4:18, where it refers not to retributive punishment, but to the suffering experienced by someone who is subject to fear because not yet perfected in charity. The verbal form, κολάζω (kolazō), appears twice: in Acts 4:21, where it clearly refers only to disciplinary punishment, and in 2 Peter 2:9 in reference to fallen angels and unrighteous men, where it probably means “being held in check” or “penned in” [until the day of judgment].
The New Testament: A Translation (p. 62). Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.

Here is the complete definition of kolasis from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon. One of, if not the, most highly accredited Greek lexicons currently available.

κόλασις, εως, ἡ (s. prec. three entries; ‘punishment, chastisement’ so Hippocr.+; Diod S 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian, VH 7, 15; SIG2 680, 13; LXX; TestAbr, Test12Patr, ApcEsdr, ApcSed; AscIs 3:13; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos., Ant. 17, 164; SibOr 5, 388; Ar. [Milne 76, 43]; Just.)​

① infliction of suffering or pain in chastisement, punishment so lit. κ. ὑπομένειν undergo punishment Ox 840, 6; δειναὶ κ. (4 Macc 8:9) MPol 2:4; ἡ ἐπίμονος κ. long-continued torture ibid. Of the martyrdom of Jesus (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 48, 95; 8, 43, 12) PtK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices by polytheists ironically described as punishment, injury (s. κολάζω) Dg 2:9.​

② transcendent retribution, punishment (ApcSed 4:1 κόλασις καὶ πῦρ ἐστιν ἡ παίδευσίς σου.— Diod S 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos., Ant. 1, 60 al.; Just.; Did., Gen., 115, 28; 158, 10) ApcPt 17:32; w. αἰκισμός 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal punishment (w. θάνατος) Dg 9:2 (Diod S 8, 15, 1 κ. ἀθάνατος). Of hell: τόπος κολάσεως ApcPt 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον αἱ κολάσεως δεόμεναι ψυχαὶ καταπέμπονται); ἐν τῇ κ. ἐκείνῃ 10:25; ibid. ἐφορῶσαι τὴν κ. ἐκείνων (cp. ApcEsdr 5:10 p. 30, 2 Tdf. ἐν τῇ κ.). ἐκ τῆς κ. ApcPt Rainer (cp. ἐκ τὴν κ. ApcSed 8:12a; εἰς τὴν κ. 12b and TestAbr B 11 p. 116, 10 [Stone p. 80]). ἀπέρχεσθαι εἰς κ. αἰώνιον go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 (οἱ τῆς κ. ἄξιοι ἀπελεύσονται εἰς αὐτήν Iren. 2, 33, 5 [Harv. I 380, 8]; κ. αἰώνιον as TestAbr A 11 p. 90, 7f [Stone p. 28]; TestReub 5:5; TestGad 7:5; Just., A I, 8, 4; D. 117, 3; Celsus 8, 48; pl. Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 90, 13]). ῥύεσθαι ἐκ τῆς αἰωνίου κ. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. τὴν αἰώνιον κ. ἐξαγοράζεσθαι buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3 v.l. κακαὶ κ. τοῦ διαβόλου IRo 5:3. κ. τινος punishment for someth. Ezk 14:3, 7; 18:30; (Philo, Fuga 65 ἁμαρτημάτων κ.) ἔχειν κόλασίν τινα τῆς πονηρίας αὐτοῦ Hs 9, 18, 1. ἀναπαύστως ἕξουσιν τὴν κ. they will suffer unending punishment ApcPt Bodl. 9–12. ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 (cp. Philo, In Flacc. 96 φόβος κολάσεως).—M-M. TW.[1]​

[1] William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 555.​

And quoting some other "scholar" who just says Nuh uh will prove absolutely nothing. What is required is a review of all the cited sources and showing that BDAG is incorrect. I don't expect to see that this century.