Modern day systemic racism, does it exist?

[rjs330]

I don't care what you want to admit to. But I'm glad you agree that systemic racism is real.

There you go, putting words in my mouth again. Please quote me stating systemic racism is real. I bet you can't to that either.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Why?

If you're not aware of this....police realized they were being scrutinized to an impossible degree and many quit or retired....leaving many major police forces badly understaffed.

That, along with the fact that some democratic mayors did indeed defund them....and the constant negative coverage....means even if they have money, they're struggling to find anyone who wants to go do the job.

What this means in several large cities is a dramatic increase in crime and a lot of police not showing up when called. Some people in some places are told that the police quite simply won't be showing up.

Now....since we prioritized this before reducing crime in some black communities, they are paying the price.

 

[Pommer]

There you go, putting words in my mouth again. Please quote me stating systemic racism is real. I bet you can't to that either.

Didn’t we just go down this rabbit hole?

 

[rturner76]

You're only 1 person; white men are millions.

agreed

 

[rturner76]

There you go, putting words in my mouth again. Please quote me stating systemic racism is real. I bet you can't to that either.

So you do agree it exists or not?

 

[rjs330]

So you do agree it exists or not?

Admit I did not say racism does not exist and admit I did not say systemic racism exists and I will answer your questions. If you don't admit that then don't ask me any more questions because I won't answer them. I refuse to answer questions from someone who will not admit they made a mistake when they claim I said something I did not say. Its okay to admit you made a mistake.

 

[rturner76]

Admit I did not say racism does not exist and admit I did not say systemic racism exists and I will answer your questions. If you don't admit that then don't ask me any more questions because I won't answer them. I refuse to answer questions from someone who will not admit they made a mistake when they claim I said something I did not say. Its okay to admit you made a mistake.

I was under the impression that you were debating against systemic racism. If I am mistaken I apologize.

 

[rjs330]

I was under the impression that you were debating against systemic racism. If I am mistaken I apologize.

Just can't do it can you. It's easy. Just say, I made a mistake. Actually two mistakes. Just say I erred or made a mistake about what you said. That's all you have to do. It doesn't say anything bad about you. We all make mistakes. I've had to admit I made them on this board before. It's okay to do so.

Please just admit you made a mistake about what I said and we'll move on. I promise I wont bring it up again.

 

[Ken-1122]

agreed

To say you've caused less harm than the combine total of millions of other people is nothing to brag about; you've also done less good than that combine total.

 

[rturner76]

To say you've caused less harm than the combine total of millions of other people is nothing to brag about; you've also done less good than that combine total.

I don't know what you are talking about

 

[rjs330]

If you're not aware of this....police realized they were being scrutinized to an impossible degree and many quit or retired....leaving many major police forces badly understaffed.

That, along with the fact that some democratic mayors did indeed defund them....and the constant negative coverage....means even if they have money, they're struggling to find anyone who wants to go do the job.

What this means in several large cities is a dramatic increase in crime and a lot of police not showing up when called. Some people in some places are told that the police quite simply won't be showing up.

Now....since we prioritized this before reducing crime in some black communities, they are paying the price.

I heard a speaker, a retired Chief of Police, address the issues of professionalism in American Policing.

In essence he said that in America we demand professionalism out of our police, but totally fail in supporting what we demand. Professionalism in police demands time and money, which our communities are not willing to spend. It's not just high pay and high hiring standards he was talking about. He was also talking about training. Police are notoriously under trained in the areas where they are often found wanting. Most of these incidents of police use of force misconduct are a direct result of a lack of training. But this kind of training takes hours and hours of training to remain proficient in the skill. And we as a society are not willing to pay for that. Because to do so would mean, for one thing to have a lot more police so they could be removed from the street to conduct the necessary training to be competent in the skills. We have to pay for trainers who are experts in the field to be able to properly train the officers. Officers should have time not only to train but also to work out and stay in shape. Firemen do that. But we often tell cops to work out in their own time and do not provide them any facilities to do that not pay them enough money to be able to go pay for a gym membership and go to the gym.

We need to completely rethink what we are doing with police and what we expect of them. We demand they encounter crazy situations that the typical citizen would never experience nor would they have any clue on how to handle it. And we expect them to handle the situation with professionalism. Yet we are unwilling to spend the money so they can obtain the professionalism that is demanded by us. Then we get get very angry when the high standards we have set are not met.

In fact we lower hiring standards just so we can get cops instead of raising standards and providing the necessary funding commensurate with the high standards we demand.

 

[Pommer]

I heard a speaker, a retired Chief of Police, address the issues of professionalism in American Policing.

In essence he said that in America we demand professionalism out of our police, but totally fail in supporting what we demand. Professionalism in police demands time and money, which our communities are not willing to spend. It's not just high pay and high hiring standards he was talking about. He was also talking about training. Police are notoriously under trained in the areas where they are often found wanting. Most of these incidents of police use of force misconduct are a direct result of a lack of training. But this kind of training takes hours and hours of training to remain proficient in the skill. And we as a society are not willing to pay for that. Because to do so would mean, for one thing to have a lot more police so they could be removed from the street to conduct the necessary training to be competent in the skills. We have to pay for trainers who are experts in the field to be able to properly train the officers. Officers should have time not only to train but also to work out and stay in shape. Firemen do that. But we often tell cops to work out in their own time and do not provide them any facilities to do that not pay them enough money to be able to go pay for a gym membership and go to the gym.

We need to completely rethink what we are doing with police and what we expect of them. We demand they encounter crazy situations that the typical citizen would never experience nor would they have any clue on how to handle it. And we expect them to handle the situation with professionalism. Yet we are unwilling to spend the money so they can obtain the professionalism that is demanded by us. Then we get get very angry when the high standards we have set are not met.

In fact we lower hiring standards just so we can get cops instead of raising standards and providing the necessary funding commensurate with the high standards we demand.

Any society that spends more (time, effort, money) on policing than education is going to reap the “benefits” of such policies.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I heard a speaker, a retired Chief of Police, address the issues of professionalism in American Policing.

In essence he said that in America we demand professionalism out of our police, but totally fail in supporting what we demand. Professionalism in police demands time and money, which our communities are not willing to spend. It's not just high pay and high hiring standards he was talking about. He was also talking about training. Police are notoriously under trained in the areas where they are often found wanting. Most of these incidents of police use of force misconduct are a direct result of a lack of training. But this kind of training takes hours and hours of training to remain proficient in the skill. And we as a society are not willing to pay for that. Because to do so would mean, for one thing to have a lot more police so they could be removed from the street to conduct the necessary training to be competent in the skills. We have to pay for trainers who are experts in the field to be able to properly train the officers. Officers should have time not only to train but also to work out and stay in shape. Firemen do that. But we often tell cops to work out in their own time and do not provide them any facilities to do that not pay them enough money to be able to go pay for a gym membership and go to the gym.

We need to completely rethink what we are doing with police and what we expect of them. We demand they encounter crazy situations that the typical citizen would never experience nor would they have any clue on how to handle it. And we expect them to handle the situation with professionalism. Yet we are unwilling to spend the money so they can obtain the professionalism that is demanded by us. Then we get get very angry when the high standards we have set are not met.

In fact we lower hiring standards just so we can get cops instead of raising standards and providing the necessary funding commensurate with the high standards we demand.

I'm not going to disagree with anything here....but I will add 1 thing.

Realistic expectations.

We have special forces units that are arguably amongst the most highly trained in the world. Day in day out training. Day in day out planning. Are they good? They're excellent. Do they make mistakes? All the time. They've killed women and children who aren't combatants....they've killed allies....they've hastily made dumb decisions. We hear the success stories.

The reality of a job where a life and death situation can happen at any moment means to some degree....these mistakes must be accepted as part of being imperfect human beings. That doesn't mean we shouldn't prosecute cops who kill needlessly like those who killed Nichols or Floyd....but we shouldn't be so quick to demand the heads of every cop in between.

 

[rjs330]

Any society that spends more (time, effort, money) on policing than education is going to reap the “benefits” of such policies.

Are you aware that America spends FAR FAR more on education than police?

 

[rjs330]

Are you aware that America spends FAR FAR more on education than police?

View attachment 327470

In my town there is one police department with about 70 police officers including the police administrators. There are 6 elementary schools, 2 junior high schools and 2 high schools. Each one is filled with teachers and administrators and that doesn't include all the school district employees and administrators.

No we spend a lot more on education than we do on police. I don't want to get into a debate on teacher pay. Because I think we'll end up agreeing that teachers should be paid more than they are. I think teachers ought to be one of the highest paid professions in our society.

I also think police ought to be paid much higher as well and the training needs should be funded far better than
they are. There is no way police should be going into such high stress physical encounters with as little of training as they get. It's just asking for trouble because they are not properly prepared. And that is on YOU and ME for not demanding that we pay more money to make it better. We should be going to our city and county government and telling them, we need to know what it will take to get a properly trained police force and then let them know we will pay for it.

 

[RDKirk]

That doesn't mean we shouldn't prosecute cops who kill needlessly like those who killed Nichols or Floyd....but we shouldn't be so quick to demand the heads of every cop in between.

That doesn't appear to be a problem, noisy media notwithstanding. Police walk away from the vast majority of shootings.

 

[rjs330]

That doesn't appear to be a problem, noisy media notwithstanding. Police walk away from the vast majority of shootings.

Could it be the vast majority of shootings are justified?

 

[rjs330]

I'm not going to disagree with anything here....but I will add 1 thing.

Realistic expectations.

We have special forces units that are arguably amongst the most highly trained in the world. Day in day out training. Day in day out planning. Are they good? They're excellent. Do they make mistakes? All the time. They've killed women and children who aren't combatants....they've killed allies....they've hastily made dumb decisions. We hear the success stories.

The reality of a job where a life and death situation can happen at any moment means to some degree....these mistakes must be accepted as part of being imperfect human beings. That doesn't mean we shouldn't prosecute cops who kill needlessly like those who killed Nichols or Floyd....but we shouldn't be so quick to demand the heads of every cop in between.

Absolutely, it would be totally unrealistic to expect little to no excessive use of force situations. That being said, cops end up using more force than necessary physically because they don't train enough with physical and de-escalation skills. They might get an hour or two a year in some baton strikes and pepper spray. Then another couple of hours in Taser recertification. But that's about it. They get little to no physical control skill training and if they do it might be once a year and that about it. De-escalation again probably once a year if that.

They are better at shooting situations actually cause often departments train once a month to every other month. If cops trained once a month at least with physical control skills combined with de-escalation training we would see far fewer incidents like the one in Memphis or I dare say in Minneapolis.

But that would cost the taxpayer a lot more money.

 

[RDKirk]

Could it be the vast majority of shootings are justified?

Could be, but my point is that "quick to demand the heads of every cop in between" is not a considerable problem.

 

[rturner76]

Just can't do it can you. It's easy. Just say, I made a mistake. Actually two mistakes. Just say I erred or made a mistake about what you said. That's all you have to do. It doesn't say anything bad about you. We all make mistakes. I've had to admit I made them on this board before. It's okay to do so.

Please just admit you made a mistake about what I said and we'll move on. I promise I wont bring it up again.

I will concede it is possible that I misunderstood you, however, I'm not about to go through all of your statements on this thread. From what I remember though, you have been staunchly against the notion of systemic racism. Unless you are ready to admit systemic racism does exists. Then I recant any statement I have put forward concerning your lack of belief in systemic racism. Are you willing to go that far?