Jack Phillips of Masterpiece Cakeshop Refuses to Bake a Birthday Cake for Transgendered Person

[Hammster]

Jack Phillips' bakery makes birthday cakes. It makes pink birthday cakes. It makes blue icing. He was fine with making a pink birthday cake with blue icing until the customer said she also was going to celebrate her transition. That was when he refused. He did not refuse to sell something he doesn't make, but he refused to sell it to this customer.

Thought experiment. Let’s say you have a rifle for sale. Someone calls you and asks if it’s good for target shooting. Of course, you say. It’s what you use it for.

Then he comes to buy it and says the targets he likes to shoot is pictures of little black girls. Do you still sell him the rifle?

 

[iluvatar5150]

Thought experiment. Let’s say you have a rifle for sale. Someone calls you and asks if it’s good for target shooting. Of course, you say. It’s what you use it for.

Then he comes to buy it and says the targets he likes to shoot is pictures of little black girls. Do you still sell him the rifle?

If "fantasizing over killing little black girls" is a legally protected class, then yes.

 

[Hammster]

If "fantasizing over killing little black girls" is a legally protected class, then yes.

I sure wouldn’t because it’s sick to knowingly support such evil.

 

[RDKirk]

On the contrary. If a private business is a public thing, then the implication is that it's not truly privately owned.

Nope. Not at all. That's like saying because there are traffic laws, you car is not privately owned. Or because there are zoning regulations, your house is not privately owned. Or because you can't shoot off your gun willy-nilly, your gun is not privately owned.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I sure wouldn’t because it’s sick to knowingly support such evil.

That's nice. Fortunately for all of us, the balance we've struck between freedom of association and freedom to participate in society doesn't extend that far and also offers alternatives for folks who wish to go into business while also being more selective about their clientele than what the default permits.

 

[RDKirk]

Jack Phillips' bakery makes birthday cakes. It makes pink birthday cakes. It makes blue icing. He was fine with making a pink birthday cake with blue icing until the customer said she also was going to celebrate her transition. That was when he refused. He did not refuse to sell something he doesn't make, but he refused to sell it to this customer.

That's the crux of this particular case. The person was attempting to purchase essentially an off-the-shelf article. This is distinct from the earlier case in that there was no implication of "forced speech" -- i.e., forced artistic expression--involved.

This would be like the difference between a wedding photographer and a passport photographer in being required to service a homosexual couple. I personally could consider it "forced speech" -- I.e. forced artistic expression--in the case of the wedding photographer, but not in the case of the passport photographer.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I support the business owners rights to conduct business as they see fit. But they aren’t afforded that right.

Correct, they can't employ children or warm frozen burger patties in their armpits or discriminate against certain classes of people. There's all sorts of things We The People have decided they can't do.

 

[iluvatar5150]

This would be like the difference between a wedding photographer and a passport photographer in being required to service a homosexual couple. I personally could consider it "forced speech" -- I.e. forced artistic expression--in the case of the wedding photographer, but not in the case of the passport photographer.

You have a more lofty view of wedding photographers than I do.

 

[RDKirk]

You have a more lofty view of wedding photographers than I do.

That's because I've done it before.

But I stopped that self-flagellation many, many years ago.

 

[iluvatar5150]

That's because I've done it before.

But I stopped that self-flagellation many, many years ago.

I respect the craft. The artistry is... well... when they all look the same...

As for the self-flagellation - I used to work audio production for a band that would cater to, say, upper middle class weddings and corporate events and, never again.

 

[DaisyDay]

If the law was different would your line be different?

If the moon were made of green cheese would the space rats be fat?

 

[DaisyDay]

Thought experiment. Let’s say you have a rifle for sale. Someone calls you and asks if it’s good for target shooting. Of course, you say. It’s what you use it for.

Then he comes to buy it and says the targets he likes to shoot is pictures of little black girls. Do you still sell him the rifle?

I would not own a rifle or sell one to a stranger. Your hypotheticals are bad.

Jack Phillips, on the other hand, actually does make birthday cakes, pink cakes and blue icing.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The customer didn't have to tell the bake shop anything but telling does not make the refusal OK.

Well by telling the baker the meaning, the ambiguous decoration is no longer ambiguous. Meaning was established.

I agree with the assessment prior to telling the baker the meaning....he wouldn't have objected. One doesn't reasonably infer meaning from the decoration alone.


Once the meaning was explicitly stated
....it's not something that one needs to infer.

 

[Ana the Ist]

This post is more than 10 years old.

Great point....I'm an atheist though, and that's a section I don't read, because I can't post. Not much point in reading opinions I can't interact with.

After looking back....yeah, I think most articles named him once or twice, maybe a couple more. The article in the OP name drops him over 12 times and it just stuck out to me as odd. Perhaps I'm wrong though.

 

[Ana the Ist]

On the contrary. If a private business is a public thing, then the implication is that it's not truly privately owned.

Private business is still subject to the law. It's not a sovereign fiefdom.


Surely you know this already.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If "fantasizing over killing little black girls" is a legally protected class, then yes.

Is transgender a legally protected class?

As far as I know, Joe just changed the wording on the enforcement. No law was passed was it?

 

[iluvatar5150]

Is transgender a legally protected class?

As far as I know, Joe just changed the wording on the enforcement. No law was passed was it?

In some states, it's protected at the state level. At the federal level, it's not a law, but there may be some administrative regulations that have a similar effect.

 

[SilverBear]

I support the business owners rights to conduct business as they see fit. But they aren’t afforded that right.

Well that is not entirely true, you refused to support the bar owner that sees fit to sell alcohol to minors.


Again why do you support discriminatoin?

 

[SilverBear]

A private business is a public accommodation?

if it is open to the public then yes it is

 

[SilverBear]

Thus you argue that since we look askance at Segregation, laws that ended it therefore must be good. But are the ends to justify the means? A business owner cannot discriminate because of race, but neither does he have full rights over the property that he owns. We've just seen an argument in this topic to the effect that private business is a public accommodation, as though no one truly owns their own business.

Is that what you wish?

if you own a business that is open to the public then it has to be open to all of the public even people you don't happen to like