Undecided in eschatology

[parousia70]

I believe you have CONFLATED the Last Saints with the Saints living in 50AD
The Bible does not conflate the two.

The Bible most definitely coroborates the two:

“Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)

“God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son.” (Heb. 1:1-2)

“For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Heb. 10:37)

“He …has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.” (I Peter 1:20)

“It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)

 

[parousia70]

How could James possibly know in advance that the coming of the Lord will occur in their lifetime when only the Father knows that day and hour? How could James possibly know in advance, assuming the coming of the Lord could coccur during their lifetime, that all of them would still be alive at the time?

Are you of the mind that James was completely ignorant of Jesus' instruction in Matthew 24:33? He was standing right there when Jesus spoke the words directly to him. (Mark 13:3)

Are you of the opinion James just forgot what Jesus said to him?

Using your logic, can Jesus' instruction in Matthew 24:33 mean anything to anybody then?
Jesus said: "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

Using your logic above, how could the people who "see all these things" KNOW that is was near and at the door, the way Jesus said they could?

If your assertion is correct, then NOBODY can EVER KNOW that His coming is "near and at the door" regardless of Jesus explicitly saying they could after certain signs were seen.

How do you reconcile this?

I suppose you could attempt to deploy the old futurist standby of: "Near = 2000+ years"

But that again, renders Matthew 24:33 totally meaningless to the folks who see the signs.....

 

[claninja]

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.


Apparently, you disregard this part in verse 7 in order to arrive at what you are concluding--Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

Your interpretation turns this long patience into very little patience instead, even though the text says long patience, not short patience. Can you not even visualize in your mind what this might involve---the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain?

In verse 8 he is not telling them to be patient for the reasons that you think, as if they are waiting for the coming of the Lord to take place in their lifetimes. How could James possibly know in advance that the coming of the Lord will occur in their lifetime when only the Father knows that day and hour? How could James possibly know in advance, assuming the coming of the Lord could occur during their lifetime, that all of them would still be alive at the time?

Does that mean he lied to some of them, and some of them he didn't, if the the coming of the Lord happens during the days they are living in, but that some of them he is addressing, they die before that day arrives, while others that he is addressing here, they are still alive when that day arrives? James has no control over when one dies or doesn't die. He couldn't possibly know that in advance, pertaining to the ones he was addressing at the time. Therefore, what is the point of him telling them to be patient until the coming of the Lord, when James couldn't possibly know in advance when that might occur, and that he couldn't possibly know in advance when any of the ones he was addressing might die? The point can't be what you are thinking, that's for certain.

And your interpretation means that the husbandman dies before receiving the early and latter rains. It makes no sense for James to exhort the 12 tribes in the dispersion, around 62AD, to be patient for the coming of the Lord, if he was talking about an event 2,000 plus year away, after their death.

Scenario one: you and your wife are waiting for a pharmacist to fill a very important prescription, that you are very antsy to start taking. Your wife tells you to be patient. Your prescription is ready 100 years later after you are dead. You never received your prescription.

Scenario 2: you and your wife are waiting for a pharmacist to fill a very important prescription, that you are very antsy to start taking. Your wife tells you to be patient. Your prescription is ready in 30 minutes, and you begin taking the medicine.


Why would someone be told to wait patiently for an event, that will never occur in their lifetime?

 

[5thKingdom]

The Bible most definitely coroborates the two:

“Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)

The "End of the Age" represents the END of the Great Commission and not the END of the Great Tribulation.
You do not understand the CONTEXT of the (3rd) Christian Kingdom and the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom (Revelation Beast)


Mat 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always,
even unto the END OF THE AGE. Amen.

“God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son.” (Heb. 1:1-2)

Everything after the Cross - both the Great Commission of the Third Beast
and the Great Tribulation of the Fourth Beast is considered the "last days".
Again you lack CONTEXT.

“For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Heb. 10:37)

Tell me... from your vantage point 2000 years later..
Can you discern whether this verse was written for Saints in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom of the Great Commission...
Or was it written for the Saints in the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom (the Revelation Beast)?
Again you lack CONTEXT.


Knowing the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1] is a DIFFERENT BEAST
you can discern this verse was NOT written for Saints in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom of the Great Commission.
Unless/until you UNDERSTAND the DIFFERENCE between these two (2) separate and distinct "Beasts"
you will continue to CONFLATE the two Kingdoms.


That is why understanding of WHAT Daniel's Beasts represent is so important to understanding CONTEXT.
However, the Truth of Daniel's Beasts remained "closed-up" and "sealed" to all the Saints
until the Last Saints "shall understand" (and preach) at the "Time-of-the-End".
Daniel 12:4 and 12:8-10 PROVES this fact.


/

 

[5thKingdom]

And your interpretation means that the husbandman dies before receiving the early and latter rains.

This is the CONTEXT of the passage... the "early and latter rains".

If you understood WHEN the "latter rains" are given then you would understand
the CONTEXT of the passage. Until you understand WHEN the "latter rains" are provided
then you will CONFLATE two (2) different "Kingdoms/Beasts" and you will not find Biblical Truth
of the "latter rains".

/

 

[5thKingdom]

Are you of the mind that James was completely ignorant of Jesus' instruction in Matthew 24:33? He was standing right there when Jesus spoke the words directly to him. (Mark 13:3)

Are you of the opinion James just forgot what Jesus said to him?

Using your logic, can Jesus' instruction in Matthew 24:33 mean anything to anybody then?
Jesus said: "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

Using your logic above, how could the people who "see all these things" KNOW that is was near and at the door, the way Jesus said they could?

If your assertion is correct, then NOBODY can EVER KNOW that His coming is "near and at the door" regardless of Jesus explicitly saying they could after certain signs were seen.

How do you reconcile this?

I suppose you could attempt to deploy the old futurist standby of: "Near = 2000+ years"

But that again, renders Matthew 24:33 totally meaningless to the folks who see the signs.....

 

[5thKingdom]

parousia70 said:
Are you of the mind that James was completely ignorant of Jesus' instruction in Matthew 24:33?


You do not understand the CONTEXT of Matthew 24:33


Jesus PROMISED the Last Saints "shall see ALL these things" that He had just prophesied.
ALL of the events in the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
NOT events during the (3rd) Christian Kingdom of the Great Commission.


The (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom COULD NOT BEGIN
until the Last Saint has been "sealed" (saved)
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES that fact.


So, in Matthew 24:33 Jesus is talking about the Saints living in the Great Tribulation...
the Saints living when He Returns. He is not talking about Saints in 50AD "seeing"
all the Great Tribulation events be FULFILLED.


Once again you demonstrate you cannot discern the CONTEXT of the passage.
Unless/until you understand the DIFFERENCE between the (3rd) Christian Kingdom
and the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom you will continue to CONFLATE
the two Beasts and not understand the MEANING of many passages.


The FIRST thing you need to do when reading the NT passages
is to discern whether the passage applies to Saints living in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom
BEFORE the Last Saint has been "sealed" (saved)... or Saints living in the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom
(Revelation Beast) AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed" (saved).


/

 

[DavidPT]

That is why understanding of WHAT Daniel's Beasts represent is so important to understanding CONTEXT.
However, the Truth of Daniel's Beasts remained "closed-up" and "sealed" to all the Saints
until the Last Saints "shall understand" (and preach) at the "Time-of-the-End".
Daniel 12:4 and 12:8-10 PROVES this fact.

If we then factor the following in, does this mean that during the time involving the last saints, saints will then be divided into two camps, the wise and the wicked?

Daniel 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


IOW, the saints during the time involving the last saints, who understand, that then places them in this camp---the wise. While the saints during the time involving the last saints, who don't understand, that then places them in this camp---the wicked.

Is that really the intended meaning, that any saint who does not understand during the time of the last saints, this makes them of the wicked, and because they dont understand they shall do wickedly because they are wicked? Which then begs the question. Because they don't understand, this then makes them wicked? Or because they are wicked, this is the reason they don't understand? Which then begs another question. Understand what? What you allege to understand? So unless one understands what you allege to understand, this makes them of the wicked?

 

[parousia70]

parousia70 said:
Are you of the mind that James was completely ignorant of Jesus' instruction in Matthew 24:33?


You do not understand the CONTEXT of Matthew 24:33

Exegete James 5:8-9 for us then.

What does that passage MEAN?

You've been avoiding it like the plague.

 

[parousia70]

Tell me... from your vantage point 2000 years later..
Can you discern whether this verse was written for Saints in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom of the Great Commission...
Or was it written for the Saints in the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom (the Revelation Beast)?
Again you lack CONTEXT.

We don't have to speculate WHO the Book of HEBREWS was written for, and first delivered to.

Their name is on the very title.

Your contention that the Boook of Hebrews was not FOR the very people it was directly addressed and actually delivered to, is untenable and must be rejected outright by every honest Bible expositor.

 

[5thKingdom]

5thKingdom said:

I believe you have CONFLATED the Last Saints with the Saints living in 50AD
The Bible does not conflate the two.

The Bible most definitely coroborates the two:

I did not say "coroborates" the two Kingdoms... I said you CONFLATED them.

“Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)

The entire (3rd) Christian Kingdom of the Great Commission continues to the "End of the Age". [Mat 28:18-20]
All the Saints are saved during this Great Commission. However AFTER the Great Commission is completed...
AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed" (saved) then there is an entirely NEW BEAST and the Fourth Beast
(the Revelation Beast and Great Tribulation) BEGINS.


To find Biblical Truth you MUST be able to differentiate between the Third Beast BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed"
and the Fourth Beast AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed". This is a critical difference
which prevents people from understanding the CONTEXT of passages...
as you are doing now.


Rev 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,
that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

“For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Heb. 10:37)

What is the CONTEXT of this verse?
Is it to Saints living in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom BEFORE the last Saint has been "sealed"
or is it to Saints living in the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom (Revelation Beast) AFTER the last Saint is "sealed"

If you cannot answer that question
then you cannot understand the CONTEXT of this passage,
and therefore the MEANING of this passage and MANY other passages related to the Last Saints


/

 

[5thKingdom]

We don't have to speculate WHO the Book of HEBREWS was written for, and first delivered to.

The Book of Hebrews contains passages related to the Saints
(1) in the Third Christian "Beast" of the Great Commission BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed" and
(2) in the Fourth Great Tribulation "Beast" AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed".

If you cannot DISCERN the DIFFERENCE between these two (2) Beasts/Kingdoms
then you will continue to CONFLATE the two Kingdoms
and misunderstand the MEANING of passages.

/

 

[5thKingdom]

Exegete James 5:8-9 for us then.

No need to exegete verses 8-9 until we determine the CONTEXT shown in verse 7
You cannot possibly understand the MEANING of verse 8-9 when you
cannot discern the CONTEXT provided in verse 7


Jas 5:7
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.
Behold, the husbandman [Christ] waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, [all the "wheat/sheep" must be saved]
and hath long patience for it [it is for a time appointed], until he receive the early and latter rain.


If you do not understand WHEN the "latter rain" is provided
then you have NO HOPE of understanding the CONTEXT or the MEANING of James 5:7-9 (not just verses 8-9)

So tell me..
WHEN is the "latter rain" provided?
The END does not come until that event is fulfilled.

.

 

[5thKingdom]

If we then factor the following in, does this mean that during the time involving the last saints, saints will then be divided into two camps, the wise and the wicked?

Yes, Matthew 25 teaches the last "wheat and tares" (shown as the Ten "Kings" and Ten "Horns" in Daniel 7 AND Rev 17)
are called the "Ten Virgins" that "WENT FORTH" from the (3rd) Christian Kingdom INTO the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom.
Some of these were (saved) "wise virgins" while others were (unsaved) "foolish virgins"


Mat 25:1-2
THEN shall the [Great Tribulation] Kingdom of Heaven be likened unto [look like] TEN VIRGINS,
which took their lamps [their Gospels], and WENT FORTH [from the 3rd Kingdom, into the 4th Kingdom]
to meet the bridegroom [Jesus]. And five of them were wise [saved wheat], and five were foolish [unsaved tares].


The "THEN" in Matthew 25:1 is NOT the start of the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom – or (3rd) Christian Kingdom
(at Pentecost). Instead, it's the start of Daniel's Fourth (Great Tribulation) "Kingdom of Heaven".
It's the start of Satan’s “Little Season”. It’s the rising of the 7-Headed Revelation Beast.
It begins the reign of the Anti-Christ for 3.5 “times/days/years/watches of the night”.


The “THEN” in Matthew 25:1 is when all of the Last Saints “went forth” with the Beast.
Before we can understand when, in history, the “THEN” occurs… we must first be able to discern
where the Last Saints “went forth” from (3rd Kingdom), and where they “went forth” into (4th Kingdom).
We must be able to discern the context of the passage, as it relates to Daniel’s Fourth “Kingdom of Heaven”.


Only the Last Saints are able understand the context of there being four “Kingdoms/Beasts” upon the earth.
The churches thought “Time-of-the-End” passages applied to their (3rd) Christian Kingdom, just as Temples thought
“Time-of-the-End” passages applied to their (2nd) Jewish Kingdom. However, the Bible promised the truth about
the “Time-of-the-End” would remain “closed-up” and “sealed” to all the Saints – until the Last Saints “shall understand”.
All “Time-of-the-End” passages are related to Daniel’s Fourth “Kingdom of Heaven” on earth, not the Third Beast.

Is that really the intended meaning, that any saint who does not understand during the time of the last saints, this makes them of the wicked, and because they dont understand they shall do wickedly because they are wicked?

No, it's the other way around.
NO MAN will be able to "understand"
unless he is one of the Last Saints.

Not being able to understand is the default state.
Understanding is GIVEN to the Last Saints and only them.

Which then begs the question. Because they don't understand, this then makes them wicked? Or because they are wicked, this is the reason they don't understand?

Yes... because they are wicked they are not GIVEN understanding.
This applies to BOTH all the unsaved "tares/goats" in the (Fourth) Kingdom
as well as all the lost souls OUTSIDE of the Kingdom.

Which then begs another question. Understand what?

Good question:

The Last Saints understand the historical fulfillment of ALL Great Tribulation events...
as the Lord PROMISED they "shall see ALL these things" [Mat 24:33]

And the Last Saints "shall understand" the Biblical mysteries about Daniel's Four Beasts
that were "closed-up" and "sealed" to all the Saints until the Last Saints "shall understand"
the TRUTH at the "Time-of-the-End"


/

 

[DavidPT]

Using your logic, can Jesus' instruction in Matthew 24:33 mean anything to anybody then?
Jesus said: "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

Using your logic above, how could the people who "see all these things" KNOW that is was near and at the door, the way Jesus said they could?

Let's look at this from the Luke 21 angle.

Luke 21:29 ¶And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.


At least we know from this account what exactly is nigh at hand when ye see these things come to pass, that it is the kingdom of God.

The question then is, since this is stated within context involving verse 32---This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled---did the ones Jesus was speaking to at the time see the following come to pass during their lifetime, meaning that it was entirely fulfilled---until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled(Luke 21:24)? Obviously, in order for the kingdom of God to be nigh at hand in their lifetime, that involves them seeing these things come to pass, which includes seeing the times of the Gentiles being entirely fulfilled. As in, once it is fulfilled, we are no longer in the times of the Gentiles.


The way I tend to reason things is like such. It is not required that someone has to be alive at the time in order to see that something has come to pass. 70 AD, for instance. I wasn't alive at the time, yet I clearly see that it has already come to pass. That eliminates one sign anyay. Yet, there are more signs that need to come to pass before the coming in Matthew 24:30 can take place. And once one sees that those signs are coming to pass or already came to pass, we then know we are getting closer to the 2nd coming, that the kingdom of God, that it is at the doors.

Matthew 24:15-21 is a sign. Has any of that happened yet? Some argue it has, some argue that it hasn't. Regardless who might be right, one thing Matthew 24:29 makes clear, the coming involving verse 30, it is meaning after that of Matthew 24:15-21 and not prior to it nor during it instead. Assuming Matthew 24:15-21 is involving the first century leading up to 70 AD and 70 AD itself, what coming, in any sense, occurred after the time involving Matthew 24:15-21, and what was the purpose of this coming at the time? To accomplish exactly what after Matthew 24:15-21 had already been fulfilled, rather than during when Matthew 24:15-21 is being fulfilled?

 

[claninja]

This is the CONTEXT of the passage... the "early and latter rains".

If you understood WHEN the "latter rains" are given then you would understand
the CONTEXT of the passage. Until you understand WHEN the "latter rains" are provided
then you will CONFLATE two (2) different "Kingdoms/Beasts" and you will not find Biblical Truth
of the "latter rains".

/

That’s not the context. That’s an earthly story to explain patience. The context is patience in suffering.

 

[5thKingdom]

That’s not the context. That’s an earthly story to explain patience. The context is patience in suffering.

The CONTEXT of the passage is AFTER the "latter rains"
Denying that reality does not negate the Truth.

/

 

[parousia70]

No need to exegete verses 8-9 until we determine the CONTEXT shown in verse 7
You cannot possibly understand the MEANING of verse 8-9 when you
cannot discern the CONTEXT provided in verse 7


Jas 5:7
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.
Behold, the husbandman [Christ] waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, [all the "wheat/sheep" must be saved]
and hath long patience for it [it is for a time appointed], until he receive the early and latter rain.


If you do not understand WHEN the "latter rain" is provided
then you have NO HOPE of understanding the CONTEXT or the MEANING of James 5:7-9 (not just verses 8-9)

So tell me..
WHEN is the "latter rain" provided?
The END does not come until that event is fulfilled.

First you need to demonstrate WHY James would exhort his first century audience to be patient UNTO the coming of the Lord.

What purpose did that serve?

 

[5thKingdom]

First you need to demonstrate WHY James would exhort his first century audience to be patient UNTO the coming of the Lord.

What purpose did that serve?

No.... I need only to demonstrate the CONTEXT of the "latter rains"


Are you actually asking WHY Saints in the first century needed to be patient...
how about they needed to WAIT until the Great Commission was completed
and the Last Saint had been "sealed".


Act 1:7-8
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me
both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


\

 

[parousia70]

The question then is...did the ones Jesus was speaking to at the time see the following come to pass during their lifetime, meaning that it was entirely fulfilled---until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled (Luke 21:24)?

Well, James must have believed so, otherwise he would not have said so, right?

Jesus said directly to James that His coming would only be "near and at the door" AFTER the signs were, in your words, "entirely fulfilled", James, writing some 30 years later under the infallible inspiration of the Holy Spirit claimed at that time that the Lord's coming was indeed "near and at the door".

Now, either James (and therefore the Holy Spirit who inspired him) believed all the signs had come to pass, or he was mistaken or, worse yet, lying.

Which do you prefer?

Assuming Matthew 24:15-21 is involving the first century leading up to 70 AD and 70 AD itself, what coming, in any sense, occurred after the time involving Matthew 24:15-21, and what was the purpose of this coming at the time?

I would argue we need look no further than Matthew 21:40-45 for your answer:

40 “Therefore, when the lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.


Jesus Christ, Lord of the Vineyard, is the stone of Matthew 21:42-44 who came and crushed those wicked men to powder, on time, as prophesied.