The latter Days: The type of the latter days

[5thKingdom]

Believe it or not I don't necessarily disagree with some of what you are concluding.

That is because I am preaching the Biblical Truth... and you recognize that.

For one, I found your interpetation of Daniel 11:33 rather interesting, believable, therefore, making some kind of sense to me. Which could mean that some of what you are concluding that I disagree with, it could be that I'm not comprehending how you are arriving at some of that, and not necessarily that you might be wrong.

It is true that I have been an expert on eschatology for almost 40 years... preaching for almost 50.
And, because the Truth about the Fourth Beast is so complicated and shown in SO MANY different passages,
I MUST cut-corners when explaining my Gospel on such a forum.

For instance, what I quoted above from your post. Care to expand on that some? If they are 2300 literal days involving the first beast, when did they begin, when did they end? Keeping in mind that your interpretation of Daniel 11:33 already has these 'many days' in question involving during the Revelation beast. Therefore, your position is not clear to me when you also trying to apply this 'many days' to that of IOW the first beast and the 2300 days.

5thKingdom said:
The "many days" represents the 2300 LITERAL days ["evening/morning"] of the First Revelation Beast.


First, the Great Tribulation is shown as TWO Beasts and TWO Woes and TWO Trumpets and TWO "heads/kings"
It is also shown as 3.5 "times/days/years/watches of the night"


The NATURE of the Fourth Beast / Revelation Beast / Great Tribulation is that SATAN RULES
over the Kingdom. Remember, this is AFTER the Great Commission is completed
and AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed" (saved)
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES this Biblical fact.


The PEOPLE in the Fourth Beast / Revelation Beast / Great Tribulation
are shown as:


Ten "Kings" and Ten "Horns" in Dan 7
Ten "Kings" and Ten "Horns" in Rev 17
Ten "Kings" and Ten "Toes" in Dan 2:44
Ten "Virgins" in Mat 25:1-13]


We know absolutely that these are the SAME PEOPLE
because (in EACH case) they are the people living on earth when the Lord Returns.


The PEOPLE in the Fourth Beast / Revelation Beast / Great Tribulation
consist of the LAST "wheat and tares" who were "harvested" OUT of the Third Kingdom
and INTO the Fourth Kingdom. In other words, the (saved) "wise virgins" and (unsaved) "foolish virgins"
Here the "harvest" is revealed in Scripture:



Mat 25:1-2
THEN shall the [Great Tribulation] Kingdom of Heaven be likened unto [look like] TEN VIRGINS,
which took their lamps [their Gospels], and WENT FORTH [from the 3rd Kingdom, into the 4th Kingdom]
to meet the bridegroom [Jesus]. And five of them were wise [saved wheat], and five were foolish [unsaved tares].


The "THEN" in Matthew 25:1 is NOT the start of the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom – or (3rd) Christian Kingdom
(at Pentecost). Instead, it's the start of Daniel's Fourth (Great Tribulation) "Kingdom of Heaven".
It's the start of Satan’s “Little Season”. It’s the rising of the 7-Headed Revelation Beast.
It begins the reign of the Anti-Christ for 3.5 “times/days/years/watches of the night”.


The “THEN” in Matthew 25:1 is when all of the Last Saints “went forth” with the Beast.
Before we can understand when, in history, the “THEN” occurs… we must first be able to discern
where the Last Saints “went forth” from (3rd Kingdom), and where they “went forth” into (4th Kingdom).
We must be able to discern the context of the passage, as it relates to Daniel’s Fourth “Kingdom of Heaven”.


The Abomination of Desolation is when SATAN RULES over the Last Saints.
When the "Man of Sins" RULES over the "Temple"... which represents the Last Saints.
This occurs during the FIRST Beast, the 1st Woe, the 5th Trumpet and the 7th "head/king"
This occurs during the FIRST 2300 days of the Revelation Beast / Great Tribulation.


Dan 8:13-14
Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake,
How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation,
to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me,
Unto two thousand and three hundred days; [Literal days - "evenings/mornings"]
THEN [after the 2300 days] then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
[shall the Last Saint stop following the Beast]


I am sorry it took so long to answer your question.
But there is so much involved in understanding the Fourth Beast
(and how it differed from the Third Beast)


I hope I answered your question.

As to this 2300 days, the fact the Revelation beast is involving polluting the temple, not a literal temple though, I then can't see the temple being cleansed until the Revelation beast is destroyed first.

The "temple" is the "Body of Christ" during the Revelation Beast / Great Tribulation. It's not a physical building. That's crazy.
The "temple" is "cleansed" when the Last Saints (the "wise virgins" ) STOP following the Anti-Christ (Little Horn, False Prophet, Man of Sin)
The "foolish virgins" continue to follow the Second Revelation Beast but the "wise virgins" SEE THE ABOMINATION (and they flee)
at the END of the 1st Woe, the END of the Fifth Trumpet and the END of the 7th "head/king"


The "sanctuary is cleansed" when the Last Saints SEE the Abomination (of following/being ruled by the Anti-Christ)
and they return to God.


Mat 24:15-16
When ye therefore SAHLL SEE the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand [Rule] in the holy place,
[the "holy place" and "temple" represents the "Body of Christ" during the Fourth Beast] (whoso readeth, let him understand
Then let them which be in Judaea [the saved "wise virgins"] flee into the mountains:

IOW, does the temple get polluted twice then cleansed twice? Or does it get polluted only one time, then cleansed only one time?

The Temple is polluted once (when the Last Saints "give their Kingdom to the Beast") [Rev 17:17]
And it's "cleansed" one time as the Last Saints "flee into the Mountains"


/

 

[DavidPT]

The Temple is polluted once (when the Last Saints "give their Kingdom to the Beast") [Rev 17:17]
And it's "cleansed" one time as the Last Saints "flee into the Mountains"


/

Flee into what mountains? Literal mountains in the middle east? Many Amils and even some Premils insist the mountains are literal mountains in the middle east since Matthew 24 mentions Judea and states that those who are in Judea are to flee to the mountains when ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place. These Amils take it to be involving the 2nd temple in the first century. These Premils take it to be involving a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem in the end of this age. Thus to them this proves it is involving literal mountains.


But the fact Jesus mentions Daniel, that obviously means this involves what Daniel prophesied about in the book of Daniel, except nowhere that I can tell is there a hint of anyone fleeing to literal mountains in the book of Daniel involving an AOD. Personally, I don't take the mountains literally, yet I can't reasonably explain what they are meaning if they are not meaning literal mountains. Can you?

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Flee into what mountains?

That is for this people when they see the two witnesses come back to life, when Satan is sitting on a throne. Their are the ones that should run very fast and not stop for anything or they will die.
Mountains could be low hills ir whtever allow them in be in a shadowed area fo the fire that turned Lots wife to salt doesn't kill them like the ones who did not run away ASAP.
Re:11:9-13:
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half,
and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them,
and make merry,
and shall send gifts one to another;
because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them,
and they stood upon their feet;
and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them,
Come up hither.
And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud;
and their enemies beheld them.
And the same hour was there a great earthquake,
and the tenth part of the city fell,
and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand:
and the remnant were affrighted,
and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Re:6:15-16:
And the kings of the earth,
and the great men,
and the rich men,
and the chief captains,
and the mighty men,
and every bondman,
and every free man,
hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
And said to the mountains and rocks,
Fall on us,
and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne,
and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Re:18:9-13:
And the kings of the earth,
who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her,
shall bewail her,
and lament for her,
when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment,
saying,
Alas,
alas,
that great city Babylon,
that mighty city!
for in one hour is thy judgment come.
And the merchants of the earth shall weep
and mourn over her;
for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
The merchandise of gold,
and silver,
and precious stones,
and of pearls,
and fine linen,
and purple,
and silk,
and scarlet,
and all thyine wood,
and all manner vessels of ivory,
and all manner vessels of most precious wood,
and of brass, and iron, and marble,
And cinnamon,
and odours,
and ointments,
and frankincense,
and wine,
and oil,
and fine flour,
and wheat,
and beasts,
and sheep,
and horses,
and chariots,
and slaves,
and souls of men.

BTW, Judea in that reference is to the land area in 30AD rather than the ones there are Jewish in any way. The target audience are all Gentiles.

 

[Zao is life]

THE COMING MAN OF SIN IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD: WHICH TEMPLE OF GOD IS MEANT?​

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (the man of sin seating himself up in the sanctuary of God) uses the Greek word naós, which is the only New Testament word used whenever God's sanctuary is being spoken about (the actual sanctuary of God).

The word used for the entire Jerusalem temple complex is hierón, but the word naós is only used in reference to the actual sanctuary in the temple complex:

[*StrongsGreek*] 02411
ἱερόν hierón, hee-er-on' neuter of 2413;
a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts (whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.

[*StrongsGreek*] 03485
NAO/S ναός naós nah-os' from a primary ναίω naíō, (to dwell);
a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple. Compare 2411.

In the New Testament Temple, any church building, including its seats or pews, its platform and its pulpit, is the equivalent of the hierón (the temple complex). If those who congregate there are moved to a new church building, the "hierón" will still be standing, but the naós will have left the premises, never to return.

The naós of the New Testament is the living stones (1 Peter 2:5) that make up the temple.

The last time that the New Testament uses the word naós in reference to the temple in Jerusalem, is in the verses in the Gospels which tell about the tearing of the veil between that holy place / holy of holies, which occurred when Jesus died on the cross:-

Jerusalem temple complex (word used: hierón):

Matthew 4:5; Matthew 12:5-6; Matthew 21:12; Matthew 21:14-15; Matthew 21:23; Matthew 24:1; Matthew 26:55; Mark 11:11 & 15-16; Mark 11:27; Mark 12:35; Mark 13:1 & 3; Mark 14:49; Luke 2:27, 37 & 46; Luke 4:9; Luke 18:10; Luke 19:45 & 47; Luke 20:1 & 5; Luke 21:37-38; Luke 22:52-53; John 2:14-15; John 5:14; John 7:14 & 28; John 8:2, 20 & 59; John 10:23; John 11:56; John 18:20; Luke 24:53; Acts 2:46; Acts 3:1-3, 8 & 10; Acts 4:1; Acts 5:20-21 & 24-25; Acts 5:42; Acts 21:26-30; Acts 22:17; Acts 24:6, 12 & 18; Acts 25:8; Acts 26:21; 1 Corinthians 9:13.

======================================================================​

The word hierón is never used in reference to the naós (the actual sanctuary in the temple complex), nor the body of Christ, nor the church, nor the temple in heaven.

=======================================================================

The actual sanctuary of God (word used: naós):​

* Only once in the New Testament is naós NOT referring to the sanctuary of God: Acts 19:24.

-- in the Jerusalem temple complex --​

Luke 1:9 & 21-22; Matthew 23:16-17 & 21; Matthew 23:35; Matthew 27:5 -- The veil torn --
Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45.

Note: Jesus was not a priest in terms of Moses' law and was not allowed into the naós (the holy places, where only the priests were allowed). So it makes sense that without exception, whenever you read of Jesus entering the temple in Jerusalem, the Greek word employed for "temple", is hierón.

-- Body of Christ --
​

(John 2:19 & 21; Matthew 26:61; Matthew 27:40; Mark 14:58; Mark 15:29).

After the verses talking about the tearing of the veil in the Jerusalem temple, the first time the word naós is used again, is in Acts:

Acts 7:48a
But, the Most High does not dwell in temples (Greek: naós) made with hands.

Acts 17:24
The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples (Greek naós) made with hands.

After this the word naós, whenever referring to the temple of God, is only used in reference to:

-- the church & the temple in heaven --​

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 & 1 Corinthians 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 7:15; Revelation 11:1-2; Revelation 11:19; Revelation 14:15 & Revelation 14:17; Revelation 15:5-6 & Revelation 15:8; Revelation 16:1 & Revelation 16:17; Revelation 21:22.

After His resurrection Jesus entered into the real and only naós This is why the word ceased being used in reference to the Jerusalem temple after the verses talking about the tearing of the veil in the naós, and from then on naós is only used in reference to the church and the temple in heaven, and in reference to the bodies of individual Christians being the temple.

====================================================================​

Not once does the New Testament call the church or Temple in heaven the hierón. Every reference uses the word naós.

====================================================================​

2 Thessalonians 2:4 tells us that the man of sin will seat himself up in the naós. It does not say "in the hieron".

Important fact: There are no verses in the Revelation where Babylon the Great, or the city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, or the cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out are called "the holy city", but the Revelation calls New Jerusalem "the holy city" three times: Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.

Revelation 11:2 is talking about the holy city. The temple that Revelation 11:1 is referring to is the naós - it uses the word naós for "temple".

The other city referred to in Revelation chapter 11, is referred to as a city that is "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Revelation 11:8).

THE HOLY CITY

But you have come to Mount Zion
and to the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
to the general assembly and church of the first-born
who are written in Heaven,
and to God the judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
(Hebrews 12:22-24)

"For Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all." (Galatians 4:25-26).

Revelation 21:2 & 9-10 tell us that New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ, the Lamb's wife (so it's referring to persons).
In Ephesians 2:19-22 the apostles are called "the foundation" of the church, i.e the bride of Christ.
Revelation 21:14 tells us that New Jerusalem has twelve foundations, and in them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
The sardius, topaz, emerald, sapphire, amethyst, beryl, onyx, and jasper which are named as the stones of the foundations of New Jerusalem, are the exact same stones contained in the high priest's breastplate in Exodus 28:17-21, where each stone represents one of the twelve tribes of Israel. In Revelation 21:19-20 they represent the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Christians are told that we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places (compare Ephesians 1:20 with Ephesians 2:6).
We are told Christ entered into the heavenly temple on our behalf (Hebrews 8:1-2; Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:24), and we are told He IS the temple (Revelation 21:22), and we are told Christ is in us and we are in Him (John 14:20).

"And a mouth speaking great things was given to him, and blasphemies. And authority was given to him to continue forty-two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those dwelling in Heaven. And it was given to him to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to him over every tribe and tongue and nation." (Revelation 13:5-7).

Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day (of Christ) shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple (naós) of God, setting himself forth, that he is God. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).

And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple (naós) of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it.
But leave out the court which is outside the temple (naós) , and do not measure it, for it was given to the nations. And they will trample the holy city forty-two months.
And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. (Revelation 11:1-3).

The wording in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 takes our minds back to both Judas Iscariot and to Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes" (Daniel's 4th beast).

The way Daniel's fourth beast finds his end in both Daniel Chapter 7 and Daniel Chapter 12, takes our minds forward to the return of Christ.

The kingdom of Antiochus IV (kingdom IV-A of Daniel's Chapter 7's four beasts) is the type (forerunner) of both:

(A) The kingdom ("beast") written about in the Revelation (IV-B); and
(B) The man of sin of 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2.

Notice that this identifies the man of sin of 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 with the beast of Revelation 13:1-10, and suggests that the miracles and lying wonders mentioned as accompanying the coming of the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 are not performed by the man of sin himself, but by the false prophet (the "beast from the earth") in Revelation Chapter 13, and that the man of sin is the same as the beast of Revelation 13:1-10.

The fact that Revelation 17:10-13 speaks about an 8th king ruling during the same "hour" with ten kings, who are of one mind and will hand over their power and authority to the 8th king (who Revelation 17 says is the beast that will ascend from the abyss), suggests that the beast of Revelation 13:1-10 is one man.

@DavidPT I just noticed this part below and I thought you might find it interesting:

The Modern King James Version has a very interesting translation of 2 Thessalonians 2:7:

"For the mystery of lawlessness is already working, only he is now holding back until it comes out of the midst."

The Greek word translated as "taken out" in the other translations is ginomai, which the Strong's Greek Dictionary defines as "to cause to be (generate), i.e. (reflexively) to become or come into being".

The word ".. out of" is from the Greek ek or ex, which means from, or out of; and the word translated as "..the way" in other translations is translated from the Greek mesos, which the Strong's Greek Dictionary defines as "among, before, between, (the) midst (of)".

Is the Greek talking about the one who is restraining "being taken out of the way"? Or does it rather seem to be telling us that the appearance of the man of sin is being held back until he (the man of sin) comes out of the midst of the (New Testament) temple in which he will set himself up as God, above all that is worshiped or is called God?

No wonder then that like Judas Iscariot before him, he is also called "the son of perdition". *

* The only two persons called "the son of perdition" in the New Testament are Judas Iscariot and the man of sin of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4.

 

[Zao is life]

Actually, I was going to bring up that very passage but neglected to. I see that applying to the NT church age the fact verse 7 is quoted in the NT, apparently in Matthew 26:31 and Mark 14:27. Therefore, I'm not seeing how that might support that Daniel 11:35 might be applicable to the time period A4E lived in.

I guess that's where you and I somewhat differ. Whatever I concluded about some of these things never involved determining that via Commentaries. I'm mostly interested in the portions involving the time of the end, and that I don't see how A4E could even fit any of that if the time of the end never occurred during his lifetime, and that we are told in Daniel 12 that the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.

I'm seeing in Daniel's fourth beast the principle of saints falling and being purged, and their garments whitened in the face of either the drama or the suffering (or both), that is brought about through persecution or tribulation (or both). Peter fell and was purged this way. I see when this occurs in what we read about Daniel's fourth beast as just another type or forerunner of the final time.

I believe that just as there is no other moment in time that exists in the universe at this moment than this very moment (the future does not exist this moment, neither does the past - and this is the way it will always be, every moment in time),

so all of human history from the beginning to the end has existed from the moment it entered the mind (Logos) of God:

So the principle of saints falling and to be purged and their garments of salvation made white remains the same whenever it happens. It's not surprising that Daniel wrote the same thing and that indeed historically the same thing happened to God's elect during the days of Antiochus IV.

IMO, one purpose of prophecies is to forewarn one in advance as to what to expect in the future. What good would forewarning anyone in advance, as to what A4E would do involving a temple, help anyone in Daniel's future, meaning during the days of A4E, if the words are still shut up and sealed until the time of the end, thus no one understands them yet?

I get your point but that is to me just another evidence of Daniel's fourth beast being a type or forerunner of the kingdom of antichrist. The 4th beast is "the last days kingdom" in Daniel, according to Daniel. So if Daniel's 4th kingdom has already come and gone and it wasn't the last days kingdom, then that must tell us something - it must surely tell us that Daniel's 4th kingdom is linked to the latter days in our own aeon.

No point in me repeating because you already know that I believe that Antiochus IV is identified as that 4th beast of Daniel, and so he is a type or forerunner of the antichrist/man of sin. But it's good we don't fully agree or don't agree at all about that, because truth is never = my opinion or interpretations of scripture, or anyone else's (I know you agree with that, at least), unless of course your opinion or my opinion or anyone else's opinion coincides with the truth of the matter.

.. and there I was thinking yet again that we agree on just about everything. But I keep getting reminded that we don't agree on "just about" everything. LOL there are quite a few things we don't agree on.

 

[Zao is life]

Flee into what mountains? Literal mountains in the middle east? Many Amils and even some Premils insist the mountains are literal mountains in the middle east since Matthew 24 mentions Judea and states that those who are in Judea are to flee to the mountains when ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place. These Amils take it to be involving the 2nd temple in the first century. These Premils take it to be involving a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem in the end of this age. Thus to them this proves it is involving literal mountains.


But the fact Jesus mentions Daniel, that obviously means this involves what Daniel prophesied about in the book of Daniel, except nowhere that I can tell is there a hint of anyone fleeing to literal mountains in the book of Daniel involving an AOD. Personally, I don't take the mountains literally, yet I can't reasonably explain what they are meaning if they are not meaning literal mountains. Can you?

The history of God's elect in the world and the prophecy associated with it is full of types and antitypes. So here's a suggestion (just a suggestion that I bear in mind because I'm not convinced that what you see below is the type-antitype):

The Olivet Discourse is about the coming destruction of the Jerusalem temple and about the return of Christ in deliverance of the saints who are facing great tribulation when He returns. He speaks a lot more in the Olivet Discourse about the tribulation of the saints once the gospel of the Kingdom has been preached to all nations and the saints have become hated of all nations, than about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. The circle on the left is when God's wrath has come upon Jerusalem. The circle on the right is when God's wrath is coming upon Babylon the Great.

B

 

[DavidPT]

The history of God's elect in the world and the prophecy associated with it is full of types and antitypes. So here's a suggestion (just a suggestion that I bear in mind because I'm not convinced that what you see below is the type-antitype):

The Olivet Discourse is about the coming destruction of the Jerusalem temple and about the return of Christ in deliverance of the saints who are facing great tribulation when He returns. He speaks a lot more in the Olivet Discourse about the tribulation of the saints once the gospel of the Kingdom has been preached to all nations and the saints have become hated of all nations, than about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. The circle on the left is when God's wrath has come upon Jerusalem. The circle on the right is when God's wrath is coming upon the unbelieving nations.

View attachment 326764

What abominations per Daniel 9:27 are you applying to 70 AD? IOW, in what way were the events pertaining to 70 AD involving abominations? If we look in the NT we see that abomination is the Greek word bdelugma
bdel'-oog-mah
from bdelussw - bdelusso 948; a detestation, i.e. (specially) idolatry:--abomination.

That same Greek word is used in the following passages ouside of Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations(bdelugma) and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS(bdelugma) OF THE EARTH.

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination(bdelugma) in the sight of God.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable(bdelugma) , and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


IOW, if the abominations pertaining to Daniel 9:27 involved the events pertaining to 70 AD, then where are there any passages in the NT that support this? Preterists of course, and many Amils who are not Preterists, and even some Premils, insist Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, all support this since they insist all 3 accounts are in regards to the events involving 70 AD. Yet, when one looks in the NT where bdelugma is also used, mainly meaning in Revelation, I'm not seeing how any of that might support anything involving 70 AD.


If one is convinced that Daniel 9:27 involves abominations pertaining to 70 AD, that person should be equally convinced that the AOD mentioned in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are involving the same abominations Daniel 9:27 is, and that it pertains to what happened in 70 AD. These Preterists and Amils who are not Preterists, that I mentioned above, they are convinced of this. But, unless I have been misunderstanding you somewhere along the way, you are not convinced of this. So, where then is there in the NT any support for your view involving Daniel 9:27 the fact Matthew 24 and Mark 13 can't support that if you are not even applying any of that to 70 AD, meaning in regards to the AOD?

 

[Zao is life]

What abominations per Daniel 9:27 are you applying to 70 AD? IOW, in what way were the events pertaining to 70 AD involving abominations? If we look in the NT we see that abomination is the Greek word bdelugma
bdel'-oog-mah
from bdelussw - bdelusso 948; a detestation, i.e. (specially) idolatry:--abomination.

That same Greek word is used in the following passages ouside of Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations(bdelugma) and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS(bdelugma) OF THE EARTH.

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination(bdelugma) in the sight of God.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable(bdelugma) , and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


IOW, if the abominations pertaining to Daniel 9:27 involved the events pertaining to 70 AD, then where are there any passages in the NT that support this? Preterists of course, and many Amils who are not Preterists, and even some Premils, insist Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, all support this since they insist all 3 accounts are in regards to the events involving 70 AD. Yet, when one looks in the NT where bdelugma is also used, mainly meaning in Revelation, I'm not seeing how any of that might support anything involving 70 AD.


If one is convinced that Daniel 9:27 involves abominations pertaining to 70 AD, that person should be equally convinced that the AOD mentioned in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are involving the same abominations Daniel 9:27 is, and that it pertains to what happened in 70 AD. These Preterists and Amils who are not Preterists, that I mentioned above, they are convinced of this. But, unless I have been misunderstanding you somewhere along the way, you are not convinced of this. So, where then is there in the NT any support for your view involving Daniel 9:27 the fact Matthew 24 and Mark 13 can't support that if you are not even applying any of that to 70 AD, meaning in regards to the AOD?

I don't believe the AoD in the holy place in Matthew 24:15 pertains to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. I believe it pertains to the great tribulation of the saints in the days that the man of sin seats himself up as the Head of the New Testament Temple.

Matthew 24:15 starts with the word "Therefore .." meaning it pertains to what Jesus began to talk about in Matthew 24:9, and the words "all nations" in Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 24:9 tells us that Matthew 24:15 does not pertain to Matthew 24:1-2.

Daniel 9:26 tells us that the city and sanctuary will be destroyed. That's how we know that the abominations in Daniel 9:27 is referring to the abominations associated with the destruction of the city and the sanctuary. Jesus repeated this in Matthew 23:37-39 (and that's why He was pronouncing woe upon the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23:13-36).

He was standing in the temple courtyard. Then He came out the temple, walked down the mountain and across the Kirdron Valley over to the Mount of Olives, and walked to the top. Once there, His disciples famously pointed out the magnificence of the temple structure (the Mount of Olives is opposite the Temple Mount) that He had just told the Pharisees was going to be destroyed (Matthew 23:38). So Matthew 24:1-2 records the fact that He repeated to His disciples what He had just told the Pharisees.

But the context surrounding the AoD in the holy place in Matthew 24:15 (let the reader understand) is what He was telling His disciples about them becoming hated of all nations once the gospel has been preached as a witness to all nations, etc.

Neither did Antiochus' AoD result in the destruction of city and sanctuary - unlike Daniel 9:26-27, which speaks about abominations and the destruction of city and sanctuary.

PS: I should have said the right circle represents the destruction of Babylon the Great (not the nations).

@DavidPT Old Testament faithful: City: Jerusalem. New Testament faithful: City New Jerusalem.
Old Testament harlot: Jerusalem that was destroyed. New Testament harlot: Babylon the Great that is going to be destroyed.

Old: Jesus told the saints to flee Judea (Jerusalem was its capital city). New: Jesus tells the saints to come out of Babylon the Great.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

What abominations per Daniel 9:27 are you applying to 70 AD? IOW, in what way were the events pertaining to 70 AD involving abominations? If we look in the NT we see that abomination is the Greek word bdelugma
bdel'-oog-mah
from bdelussw - bdelusso 948; a detestation, i.e. (specially) idolatry:--abomination.

The last verses in Da:9:27 cover the 3 1/2 years abter His resurrection and Acts:10 and Peter beginning to teach Gentiles. The sins, like killing Stephen would have seen the money changesr return as well as Passover being red meat, rather than red wine. All that shows is the sins that caused the exile to Neb"s Babylon were not forgiven as they were still being acted out. Jeremiah:25 covers the Babylon exile, the latter verses are when that exile ends. It is recerencing the return and the pouring out of the 7 vials. Zec:14 covers that same war. The Eze:37 resurrection happen right after, that is when God is dome with that punishment.

 

[5thKingdom]

Flee into what mountains? Literal mountains in the middle east?

No, not literal mountains.
Do a word search for "holy mountain" and discover WHAT it represents.


Zep_3:11 In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.


THAT is what happens in Bible study
we allow the BIBLE to define the words it uses.

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[5thKingdom]

DavidPT said:
What abominations per Daniel 9:27 are you applying to 70 AD?


The Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel happens in the FOURTH BEAST
it is "placed" by the "Little Horn" and the "Ten Horns" or "Ten Kings" living in the FOURTH BEAST


The Abomination could not have happened in 70 AD
when the Last Saints "shall see" it happen during the Fourth Beast / Revelation Beast / Great Tribulation


Mat 24:15
When YE [Last Saints] therefore SHALL SEE the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand


btw... another reason WHY you need to understand Daniel's Four Beasts
in order to understand the CONTEXT of passages talking about the Fourth Beast
(aka the the Revelation Beast and the Great Tribulation and the RULE of the Anti-Christ DURING Satan's "Little Season"

/

 

[5thKingdom]

I don't believe the AoD in the holy place in Matthew 24:15 pertains to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. I believe it pertains to the great tribulation of the saints in the days that the man of sin seats himself up as the Head of the New Testament Temple.

Exactly

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[DavidPT]

(aka the the Revelation Beast and the Great Tribulation and the RULE of the Anti-Christ DURING Satan's "Little Season"

What I find interesting about this, you and we Premils both place satan's little season after the time of Revelation 19:20, except Premils have a thousand years occuring after that of Revelation 19:20, followed then by satan's little season, while you have a thousand years preceding that of Revelation 19:20, followed then by satan's little season.

Which then means you have nothing to explain Revelation 19:20 and that Premils do. The 2nd coming explains Revelation 19:20. That verse indicates both the beast, and the false prophet, are taken, which I take to mean are captured, then cast into the LOF, where I take the LOF to be meaning a literal place. How do they get captured then cast into the LOF unless Christ with His angels bodily return first? Are we to believe that this event when it happens, meaning Revelation 19:20, not one single person on the planet will even be aware of it happening?

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Satan and the Beast have 42 months before the return. When released 1,000 years later, they have a 'little season'.
God created summer and winter, each is 6 months long, a little season would be shorter than that. People alive for the 1,000 years are all in Israel for the feast of the tabernacles from Zec:14. If that feast is a month long, theyt would all be there before Satan is released, could that meant all the wrath is over by the time that feast ends and the people are taken from a melted earth and taken to Mount Sion where New Jerusalem is.

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

 

[5thKingdom]

5thKingdom said:
(aka the the Revelation Beast and the Great Tribulation and the RULE of the Anti-Christ DURING Satan's "Little Season"

What I find interesting about this, you and we Premils both place satan's little season after the time of Revelation 19:20,

You place the 1000 year after the Revelation Beast (Great Tribulation) is finished and the Beast
has been "cast alive into the Lake of Fire".


Rev 19:20
And the [Revelation] beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him,
with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


So you have this chronology:


(1) The Christian Kingdom of the Great Commission saves ALL of "His sheep"


(2) The Great Tribulation Kingdom (the Revelation Beast) BEGINS after the Last Saint has been "sealed" (saved)...
meaning Salvation ENDS at the completion of the Great Commission.


Rev 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,
that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


(3) After the Great Tribulation Kingdom (Revelation Beast) is finished... THEN there is a 1000 year period
(where there is no Salvation)... do you REALLY teach that people exist on earth for 1000 years
AFTER people have been "cast into the Lake of Fire" and AFTER salvation is finished?
Your teaching the PEOPLE living in the 1000 years are the PEOPLE below?


Rev_22:15
For without [without the Eternal Kingdom] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers,
and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.



(5) David...
The PROBLEM you (PreMils) have is that you do not understand the Revelation Beast / Great Tribulation
represents Daniel's Fourth Beast and that Fourth Beast ENDS when the "Ancient of Days came"
and when the "END" occurs.


Dan 7:21-22
I beheld, and the same [Little] horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High;
and the time came that the saints possessed the [Eternal] kingdom.


Dan 7:24-26
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another [Little Horn] shall rise after them;
and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings [the Last Saints]. And he shall speak great words
against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they
[the Last Saints] shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment [of God]
shall sit [shall rule], and they [the Last Saints] shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.


(6) The PROBLEM you have is that you DENY the resurrection on the "LAST DAY"
You pretend there is 1000 years AFTER the resurrection of the Last Day.


Joh_6:39-40
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son,
and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


WHEN is this "Last Day" when Believers are resurrected... and the Last Saints are "changed"?
It is NOT after some mythical 1000 year period FOLLOWED by an undefined period of Satan's "Little Season"


Th 4:15-18
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


1Co 15:50-53
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


/

 

[5thKingdom]

Which then means you have nothing to explain Revelation 19:20 and that Premils do. The 2nd coming explains Revelation 19:20. That verse indicates both the beast, and the false prophet, are taken, which I take to mean are captured, then cast into the LOF, where I take the LOF to be meaning a literal place. How do they get captured then cast into the LOF unless Christ with His angels bodily return first? Are we to believe that this event when it happens, meaning Revelation 19:20, not one single person on the planet will even be aware of it happening?

David... I have given you these passage before
But you intentionally ignored them
Read them this time:


They show the "Final Harvest" of the Last Saints happens JUST BEFORE the Revelation Beast is destroyed:
AFTER the "Final Harvest" there is no 1000 year period without salvation and THEN an undertermined period
of Satan's "Little Season"... your PreMil position is destroyed.


In fact, the Bible contains several passages related to this event… the “Final Harvest” of “Wise Virgins”.


(1) In Matthew 25 destruction of the Fourth Kingdom of "Babylon the Great" is shown [v.10] when the "Door was Shut".
The "Final Harvest" of the “Wise Virgins” is shown [v.10] as they are taken into the "Marriage" saying;
"they that were ready went in with Him to the Marriage: and the Door was Shut".


(2) In Revelation 18 the destruction of the Fourth Kingdom is shown [v.2] as "Babylon the Great is fallen, is fallen".
The "Final Harvest" of “Wise Virgins”, immediately before the destruction of Babylon, is shown [v.4] as the Lord Commands
the Last Saints to "Come out of her, My people". And the Last Saints are told [v.20] to "rejoice"
over the destruction of Babylon for "God hath avenged you on her".


(3) In Revelation 19 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.20] as the False Prophet and Revelations Beast are
"cast alive" into the eternal "Lake-of-Fire". The "Final Harvest" immediately before destruction of the "great harlot"
[v.2] is shown as the Saints are commanded [v.17] to "gather yourselves together unto the SUPPER of the Great God”.
Then [v.9] the "Final Harvest" is shown when the Saints are "called unto the MARRIAGE SUPPER of the Lamb".
Again we see, [v.2] when God destroys the Kingdom of "Babylon" He also "hath avenged the blood of His servants".
This FULFILLS a promise God made to earlier Saints – in completion of the Fifth Seal [Rev 6:9-11]. This is important!



(4) In Revelation 11 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.13] as a "great earthquake", and the "Final Harvest"
is shown [v.12] as the Last Saints are commanded to "Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud".
Again the "Final Harvest" is shown occurring immediately before destruction of the Fourth Beast. However, this time,
the Bible reveals [v.14] the TIMING of this event – it is just before the end of the "Second Woe"... that is important.


(5) In Daniel 7 the destruction of the Fourth Beast is shown [v.11] when "the Beast was slain, and his body destroyed,
and given to the Burning Flame". The "Final Harvest" of Saints is shown [v.18] as "the Saints of the Most High shall
take the Kingdom, and possess the Kingdom forever, even for ever and ever". Again, the "Final Harvest" is shown
[v.22] when "Judgment was given to the Saints of the Most High; and the time came that the Saints possessed the
Kingdom". In Daniel 7 the Bible actually reveals the NAME of this period on earth after the "Final Harvest",
after destruction of the Fourth Beast. The Bible [Dan 7:11-12] specifically names this period the "Season and Time".
Here we see the “Time-of-the-End” is also shown as the “Season and Time” after the Fourth Beast is destroyed.4


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[5thKingdom]

What I find interesting about this, you and we Premils both place satan's little season after the time of Revelation 19:20

No... you do not understand the A-Millennial position at all.


The A-Millennial position is that the 1000 year period when the Saints "lived and reigned with Christ"
is DURING the (3rd) Christian Kingdom during the Great Commission of the Church Age when
all of "His Sheep" are found and saved. Until the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved) Rev 7:1-3


You are completely confused
if you imagine the A-Millennial position places the "Little Season" AFTER Rev 19:20


I find it amazing that you do not even understand the A-Millennial position...
when you are arguing against it?


/

 

[5thKingdom]

Satan and the Beast have 42 months

Sir, the Revelation Beast (Great Tribulation) is NOT 42 months.


It is shown as 3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 years (42 mos)
and 3.5 "watches of the night".


In fact your theory is DESTROYED by the fact that the "Abomination of Desolation"
occurring in the Fourth Beast continues for 2300 LITERAL DAY (literally "evenings/mornings")
and THAT ALONE represents almost 6.5 years.


Dan 8:13-14
Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake,
How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation,
to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me,
Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Sir, the Revelation Beast (Great Tribulation) is NOT 42 months.

This is the verse you have to prove is false:
Re:13:5:
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies;
and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Please include the verses that mark the beginning and end of that time period.

 

[5thKingdom]

This is the verse you have to prove is false:
Re:13:5:
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies;
and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Please include the verses that mark the beginning and end of that time period.

Apparently you cannot READ.


Here is what I posted... the Bible talks about the DURATION of the Fourth Kingdom in MANY VERSES...
you pretend it is only ONE VERSE... that is just you pretending. And now you embarrass yourself
by intentionally ignoring contradictory passages.


Sir, the Revelation Beast (Great Tribulation) is NOT 42 months.


It is shown as 3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 years (42 mos)
and 3.5 "watches of the night".


In fact your theory is DESTROYED by the fact that the "Abomination of Desolation"
occurring in the Fourth Beast continues for 2300 LITERAL DAY (literally "evenings/mornings")
and THAT ALONE represents almost 6.5 years.


Dan 8:13-14
Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake,
How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation,
to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me,
Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


/