So...Biden Also Took Private Documents

[rturner76]

How do you know that is true? Who made the other discoveries? Why was this kept under wraps for months until investigative reporting uncovered Joe's theft of documents? When were the other discoveries of classified document made?

Probably because it wasn't theft for him since he is the current sitting President. His work travels where he does. I think it's different to horde confidential documents once you are out of the office. Trump tried to line his pockets and got caught.

 

[rjs330]

Probably because it wasn't theft for him since he is the current sitting President. His work travels where he does. I think it's different to horde confidential documents once you are out of the office. Trump tried to line his pockets and got caught.

I thought a lot of these documents were from before he was president. Are you saying he grabbed all these documents and put them in his garage after he became president?

 

[BPPLEE]

Well fortunately Doocey didn't ask anything crazy like "if you were to suddenly expire, where else might we find valuable intel documents
?"


Follow up... are obvious traps obvious?


Follow up....did the CIA director backhand you as hard as he did me?

Those are great questions especially the first one

 

[rturner76]

I thought a lot of these documents were from before he was president. Are you saying he grabbed all these documents and put them in his garage after he became president?

No, I actually don't know what he did but I thought that since he is the current sitting President that the rules may be different than the rules for a former President. I would think he gets briefings and memos that he sticks in his folder all of the time. But I'm not clear about what Biden is allowed to take home while currently Commander In Chief.

 

[KCfromNC]

How long has he had them? Enough time to be concerned what he was doing? Trump had those documents for what, a year? And the left was all up in arms over what he was doing with them.

No, law enforcement isn't "the left". And notice the difference in behavior - Donald was lying about having them and making up nonsense about how he had the right to keep them rather than return them.

 

[rjs330]

No, law enforcement isn't "the left". And notice the difference in behavior - Donald was lying about having them and making up nonsense about how he had the right to keep them rather than return them.

LE didn't appear to be too concerned with what he was doing with them. They just got involved later to get them.back. If they were really so concerned they would have acted much sooner.

No the left werw the ones that were so concerned with what he was.doing with them. Was he selling secrets? Who was he selling secrets.to? Etc. Just go back and read the threads and listen to the left wing pundits.

Now Joe has these for far longer than Trump and no is concerned what he was doing with them? Everyone wants to defend him for having them, no big deal right? Sorry it's not going to fly. The left is nothing but a bunch of political hacks. Biased and hypocritical.

They've proven it once again.

Like I said, I really don't care all that much if Trump and his documents and Joe has his. I would be disgusted today by this if they wouldn't have been so up on arms over Trump, but so defensive over Biden.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, I actually don't know what he did but I thought that since he is the current sitting President that the rules may be different than the rules for a former President.

They are....actually, it's not exactly clear what the rules are for a sitting president in many cases.

I would think he gets briefings and memos that he sticks in his folder all of the time. But I'm not clear about what Biden is allowed to take home while currently Commander In Chief.

Nearly anything. He's got a 24/7 protection detail...presidents typically live in the white house....there may be some nuclear documents that he can't just stroll around with, but I don't think any oversight exists to stop him.

 

[Ana the Ist]

And notice the difference in behavior - Donald was lying about having them and making up nonsense about how he had the right to keep them rather than return them.

The difference is that NARA looked into which documents went missing under Trump. The rules for Trump were literally written under Obama....and NARA completely failed to notice all the documents missing under that administration.

The Trump lawyers turned over documents and the Biden lawyers turned over documents. Trump lawyers turned over 12 boxes and said that's all they have....Biden’s lawyers turned over less than 12 documents and said that's all they have.

One triggered a FBI raid....the other still has "aides" and people on his payroll going through his stuff finding documents.

Of course I don't expect Biden to order a raid on himself and make him look like a corrupt hypocritical liar and every bit as immoral as Trump. The public that's been howling about Trump going to jail and still somehow imagines Biden is different needs to wake up.

 

[SimplyMe]

They are....actually, it's not exactly clear what the rules are for a sitting president in many cases.





Nearly anything. He's got a 24/7 protection detail...presidents typically live in the white house....there may be some nuclear documents that he can't just stroll around with, but I don't think any oversight exists to stop him.

I'd say that is the biggest problem because there really are no limits on what a President can do with Confidential information, they aren't bound by the regulations and laws that ordinary people are. I think the best answer is for Congress to make laws that would make the President subject to Classified information laws and regulations -- though it is questionable if the Supreme Court would uphold those laws. Still, I think it would be worth the effort.

Congress has let the President have too much authority, which has largely led to the "Imperial President," who has largely unchecked powers (other than when they are reigned in by the Supreme Court). While individually, Congress may not be much better, you at least need a majority to push things through.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'd say that is the biggest problem because there really are no limits on what a President can do with Confidential information, they aren't bound by the regulations and laws that ordinary people are. I think the best answer is for Congress to make laws that would make the President subject to Classified information laws and regulations -- though it is questionable if the Supreme Court would uphold those laws. Still, I think it would be worth the effort.

Well...ok...I can totally understand why you might think that.


There's a reason for the separation of powers though. If we give Congress regulatory oversight of the president...we could end up in a dangerous situation by accident.

Imagine a level if classification that requires the information never leaves a secured location where cell phones are off, people are monitored, etc.

The president gets a call saying there's an emergency that could mean the end of the US. He's gotta fly back to Washington, go through all the security measures and read this 20 page document about....imminent nuclear war. Once he's done he leaves to make a phone call and ask for advice from his closest foreign policy advisor....and the advisor now has to do the same. A day later (because it's already taking too long) the advisor asks about certain military intel he's going to have to know about to give advice.....and guess what? It's also at the same level of clearance. We start the process over....on an issue that needed a decision 36 hours ago.

That's sort of why those rules are never really fleshed out. We also wouldn't want a Republican Congress enacting rules to make a Democrat President look bad, and vice versa.

I'd also like to tell you that we could make a set of rules so effective and efficient they wouldn't cause these kinds of problems but I don't think we can. Honestly, it doesn't really even matter if we simply don't trust the president (and I know that a lot of people don't trust Trump the same way many didn't trust Obama) because even without any documents...a president still has untold memories of countless bits of valuable information.

Congress has let the President have too much authority, which has largely led to the "Imperial President," who has largely unchecked powers (other than when they are reigned in by the Supreme Court). While individually, Congress may not be much better, you at least need a majority to push things through.

It's designed that way in the Constitution. I'd say that if anything....the President has been overreaching his powers by executive order instead of requiring Congress to write laws. I can't really see how a president would do their job if they had to delve through a bunch of administrative red tape.

I agree it's a problem though.

 

[SimplyMe]

Well...ok...I can totally understand why you might think that.


There's a reason for the separation of powers though. If we give Congress regulatory oversight of the president...we could end up in a dangerous situation by accident.

Imagine a level if classification that requires the information never leaves a secured location where cell phones are off, people are monitored, etc.

The president gets a call saying there's an emergency that could mean the end of the US. He's gotta fly back to Washington, go through all the security measures and read this 20 page document about....imminent nuclear war. Once he's done he leaves to make a phone call and ask for advice from his closest foreign policy advisor....and the advisor now has to do the same. A day later (because it's already taking too long) the advisor asks about certain military intel he's going to have to know about to give advice.....and guess what? It's also at the same level of clearance. We start the process over....on an issue that needed a decision 36 hours ago.

That's sort of why those rules are never really fleshed out. We also wouldn't want a Republican Congress enacting rules to make a Democrat President look bad, and vice versa.

I'd also like to tell you that we could make a set of rules so effective and efficient they wouldn't cause these kinds of problems but I don't think we can. Honestly, it doesn't really even matter if we simply don't trust the president (and I know that a lot of people don't trust Trump the same way many didn't trust Obama) because even without any documents...a president still has untold memories of countless bits of valuable information.





It's designed that way in the Constitution. I'd say that if anything....the President has been overreaching his powers by executive order instead of requiring Congress to write laws. I can't really see how a president would do their job if they had to delve through a bunch of administrative red tape.

I agree it's a problem though.

You scenario is a false dichotomy. You have to realize 1) Air Force One is considered a Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility (SCIF), so any sensitive documents that a President may need while traveling can travel with him; including having classified information sent to the plane. Beyond that, anytime a President travels, there is almost always a SCIF set up in the local area that they can get the President to quickly.

I'm not taking about Congressional oversight anyway. I'm saying that Congress should pass a set of laws that set up the rules and requirements that everyone must follow (to include Presidents and Congressional members). The President could still declassify information, though it would be good to have laws in place that require a minimum set or rules covering declassification -- such as some type of notification system to show that document is no longer classified (though that system might itself be classified). While you do have the issue that the President (through his DoJ) would be responsible for enforcing the laws he is to follow, OTOH, Congress does have the power to impeach if the President does not enforce those laws.

Edit: I ran across this article which talks about the government has turned shipping containers (the type used to transport goods on container ships and trains) into SCIFs, which allows the SCIF to simply be moved to the location the President is traveling, rather than having to find a building they can turn into a SCIF (sound proofing walls, securing, etc) for a few days.

 

[NxNW]

The deliberate act of removing official documents from the White House?

This applies to Trump, but not to Biden.

What are we now saying? That it's OK to violate the rules as long as you say "oopsie"?

Link, please.

If this isn't a crime....then having documents in possession at Mar A Lago isn't either.

You might want to re-read the posts to which you're responding.

 

[NxNW]

Of course I don't expect Biden to order a raid on himself and make him look like a corrupt hypocritical liar and every bit as immoral as Trump. The public that's been howling about Trump going to jail and still somehow imagines Biden is different needs to wake up.

Those who feel Trump and Biden are identical might want to take a more nuanced look at things.

 

[Ana the Ist]

⁵

Those who feel Trump and Biden are identical might want to take a more nuanced look at things.

I don't know how much Biden took or what he did with it. I do know that the case against him taking it isn't much stronger because as VP under Obama he was handed classified intel all the time.

The case against him keeping it isn't much better though. I don't know exactly when Trump’s team stopped cooperating with the white house. As an outsider, I don't know if he actually knew what was a reasonable request....what procedure was applicable, etc. He demonstrated that as an outsider....he didn't really understand how any of this works when he took a call from Taiwan's president congratulating him. He never really learned the job. Biden however, has been an insider for 50 years....and the current rules regarding this stuff were written under Obama. He doesn't have much of an excuse beyond his obvious mental decline.

The big problem though, is whether or not either of them intended to share or otherwise personally profit from these materials either in or out of office.

I'm sure you think there's a big difference. There is. Trump was never supposed to win....and those who have been inside a long time had nothing to fear from a new face. It was always business as usual. When a guy with no experience and neither party wanted showed up, it's a big problem on both sides. He runs his mouth all the time and throws mud at opponents at the first chance. He had to go....and once gone, never come back.

You hear this from outsiders on both sides of the aisle....

"I'm going to expose just how corrupt this place is. "

It doesn't matter if it's AOC and Omar or Gaetz or Greene.

From those seats though...you either figure out how little of the picture you have, that you're playing against everyone and will lose, or you will get nothing done. From the president's office you can see a lot though....if you aren't a total idiot. I mean seriously, you know how Pelosi got all those millions. It's not from her salary as a civil servant. It's not because her husband is a magical leprechaun and just looks like a drunk idiot who happens to always make winning stock picks.

They have agencies and offices to root out, prevent, and prosecute corruption. They're either ridiculously underfunded, lack any real ability to enforce laws, or sitting behind a beauracy of red tape. These people don't work for us.

 

[Aldebaran]

Think about it as murderer who tells the cops where the body is compared to the murderer who never takes responsibility for killing the person, let alone discloses the location.

Hahaha! Ok, if you insist.
One big difference is that biden's carelessness/incompetence may end up resulting in far more than one dead body. We may never know what his lapses in judgement with classified information will result in--or how many of our servicemen have died because of how incompetent biden has been. We know of 13 in Afghanistan so far, and he still hasn't paid the price for that.

 

[Aldebaran]

This applies to Trump, but not to Biden.

So if not deliberate, biden removed those highly classified documents by accident, then put them in his garage by accident, then forgot they were even there?
That sounds far worse than anything Trump might have done. At the very least, Trump was an actual president who had the authority to declassify documents. Biden, as a VP did not. Trump also had the documents in a locked vault in a building protected 24/7 by armed Secret Service agents. Biden had them in his garage (where they were allegedly forgotten about), and protected by a Corvette.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You scenario is a false dichotomy. You have to realize 1) Air Force One is considered a Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility (SCIF), so any sensitive documents that a President may need while traveling can travel with him; including having classified information sent to the plane. Beyond that, anytime a President travels, there is almost always a SCIF set up in the local area that they can get the President to quickly.

I'm not taking about Congressional oversight anyway. I'm saying that Congress should pass a set of laws that set up the rules and requirements that everyone must follow (to include Presidents and Congressional members). The President could still declassify information, though it would be good to have laws in place that require a minimum set or rules covering declassification -- such as some type of notification system to show that document is no longer classified (though that system might itself be classified). While you do have the issue that the President (through his DoJ) would be responsible for enforcing the laws he is to follow, OTOH, Congress does have the power to impeach if the President does not enforce those laws.

Edit: I ran across this article which talks about the government has turned shipping containers (the type used to transport goods on container ships and trains) into SCIFs, which allows the SCIF to simply be moved to the location the President is traveling, rather than having to find a building they can turn into a SCIF (sound proofing walls, securing, etc) for a few days.

Do you understand what I mean when I say "the appearance of accountability"?

This is something designed to convince people that there's a way to hold the guilty or responsible...guilty or responsible.

Does that make sense?

Congress' About-Face On Stock Trading Ban Hurts Americans' Trust In Government

Members of Congress have an unfair advantage when it comes to trading stocks. Here are the details.

www.google.com

That's about the birth and death of a wildly popular bill that prevents these people from getting rich based on insider knowledge. Over 80% from the right, left, and independents. Proposed in early 2022....effectively killed around the Oct 2022.

What's the big accomplishment so far thus administration? The omnibus bill? A bill they didn't write, didn't read, and had bipartisan support. It's what....over 1000 pages long? They had pages earmarked regarding what they wanted....but that's probably all they read. Why did it have bipartisan support? Because it's packed with things their donors wanted. Why did it take so long? Because there's various outsiders holding it up on the left....they wanted various things and only agreed to go along if there social policies were also addressed at the same time. When they realized that wouldn't happen....lots of back and forth. The outsiders lost.

A very similar thing happened on the right when Republicans took the house....they fought over who would be speaker. Outsiders won a lot of concessions.

When you think of the government....what do you think the biggest problem is?

 

[Aldebaran]

What's the big accomplishment so far thus administration? The omnibus bill? A bill they didn't write, didn't read, and had bipartisan support. It's what....over 1000 pages long?

Actually, a little over 4,000 pages.
Also of interest, a couple of the deals McCarthy made with the 20 Republicans referred to as "extremists" and "right wing hardliners" included no more omnibus bills, and a mandatory 72 hour period to read bills before being voted on.

 

[NxNW]

So if not deliberate, biden removed those highly classified documents by accident

No.

then put them in his garage by accident

No.

then forgot they were even there?

No.

That sounds far worse than anything Trump might have done.

Which is?

At the very least, Trump was an actual president who had the authority to declassify documents.

Did he declassify them? No.

Even if he had, they remain government property.

Trump also had the documents in a locked vault in a building protected 24/7 by armed Secret Service agents.

No he didn't.

Biden had them in his garage (where they were allegedly forgotten about),

He gave them back when they were discovered. Trump refused and then lied about it.

and protected by a Corvette.

You don't like Corvettes?

 

[NxNW]

One big difference is that biden's carelessness/incompetence may end up resulting in far more than one dead body.

I've yet to hear any examples of carelessness on his part.

We may never know what his lapses in judgement with classified information will result in--or how many of our servicemen have died because of how incompetent biden has been.

I'm unaware of any lapses.

We know of 13 in Afghanistan so far, and he still hasn't paid the price for that.

You mean for carrying out Trump's plans?