Systemic racism in the USA: Are whites "guiltier" if they had slavery in their past?

timewerx

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Wow good for you! 2 LED TV’s, A/C, washing machines, Fridge, Microwave and Toasters all less than 5 years old? Sounds like you’ve done your share of buying new models haven’t you, but on Post #364 you were complaining about people upgrading their stuff and buying new models as stupid due to some shallow/petty need! So…… is it okay now to buy the latest and greatest since you occasionally do it?

The appliances we upgraded recently averaged 20 years in our use.

And we intend to use our new appliances another 20 years or even more. I don't see how you arrived to the conclusion that we replace our appliances often without knowing how old the appliances we replaced and when we plan on upgrading again. Unless you think a 20 year replacement interval is still too often.

One of the things that motivated us to upgrade is the matured and significantly more efficient inverter and LED technology.

Even our appliances are used very modestly that's why they tend to last very long without problems in our use.
 
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I look at it this way - White men who descended from slave owners are no more responsible for slavery than are Black men who descended from those who enslaved those Africans.

I'd add that descendents of Black slave owners are also not responsible for the crimes of their ancestors.

It is interesting to consider how slavery has affected people. So many owe their lives to the evil of slavery as the practice substituted for genocide in tribal Africa. Just shows how God works things for the good.

At the same time our history of racism has created communities that sometimes foster an environment of poverty that is difficult to overcome (and, to be fair, sometimes a mentality of victimhood that works against overcoming poverty).
 
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timewerx

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I look at it this way - White men who descended from slave owners are no more responsible for slavery than are Black men who descended from those who enslaved those Africans.

I'd add that descendents of Black slave owners are also not responsible for the crimes of their ancestors.

At some point in history, people practiced slavery globally, Christians, Muslims, pagans, etc. Or exploited the weak and poor for cheap source of labor. Exploitation of the weak and poor for cheap labor still rampant today and even many Western nations are complicit to it.

Essentially, the poor built the wealth of the rich. The foundation of the world's wealth is built upon a history of slavery and exploitation of the weak and poor.

This is why Jesus referred to 'wealth' as "Unrighteous Wealth". In Greek translations, Jesus could also be referring to "Wealth from Injustice". It's essentially the same and true enough, the world's wealth is ultimately sourced from exploitation of the weak and poor and is injustice. It's found in Luke 16:19. Jesus isn't accusing anyone here they made money through dishonest means like stealing or cheating.

Wealth generates wealth so even today, where our money/incomes came from will ultimately be traced all the way back in time we first made trade with another person thousands of years ago, including the times when slavery is rampant.

Since the world built its wealth upon the exploitation of the poor, the only way this "unrighteous wealth" can be made right is by giving it back to the poor in one way or the other. In Luke 16:19, Jesus is telling everyone to make friends with unrighteous wealth. What Jesus meant there to make friends is help the poor and needy with money. By helping the poor, you win them as friends. You help undo the injustice done to them by the rich for many thousands of years.

I think racism is ultimately blamed to the love of money or greed. Slaves are often employed to generate wealth for the rich.

Racism is still rampant today in USA and other rich countries. A general attitude is the lack of care, indifference towards other races suffering from pollution, climate change, and exploitation caused directly or indirectly by USA's economic activities. Again, this is rooted towards the love of money / greed.
 
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Ken-1122

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I don't see how you arrived to the conclusion that we replace our appliances often without knowing how old the appliances we replaced and when we plan on upgrading again.
Perhaps the same way you’ve arrived to the conclusion people are getting new stuff in according to some shallow/petty need rather than an actual need.
 
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timewerx

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Perhaps the same way you’ve arrived to the conclusion people are getting new stuff in according to some shallow/petty need rather than an actual need.

Do people really need to upgrade their phones, their cars, their computers each year? Buy new clothes and new shoes multiple times a year?

Pardon me but I don't see any actual need to it unless you actually wore out your running shoes in just a few months because you're an athlete or drive your car 500 miles each day for work reasons or for some unavoidably unusual circumstances, you break your phone beyond repair or lose it every year. These circumstances are rare.

And then the companies who build these products encouraging everyone to this mindless practice. That's irresponsible business practice.

It's racist for these businesses not to care about the negative consequences of their economic activities because it's happening outside their country, far away, and only affects other races, mostly.

So I'd say racism is still systemic and rampant in USA in the way they conduct business. Let's not mention the indifference and coldness to how the nations where they outsource their jobs exploits its workers. Especially workers of other races.
 
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RDKirk

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Do people really need to upgrade their phones, their cars, their computers each year? Buy new clothes and new shoes multiple times a year?

Pardon me but I don't see any actual need to it unless you actually wore out your running shoes in just a few months because you're an athlete or drive your car 500 miles each day for work reasons or for some unavoidably unusual circumstances, you break your phone beyond repair or lose it every year. These circumstances are rare.

And then the companies who build these products encouraging everyone to this mindless practice. That's irresponsible business practice.

It's racist for these businesses not to care about the negative consequences of their economic activities because it's happening outside their country, far away, and only affects other races, mostly.

So I'd say racism is still systemic and rampant in USA in the way they conduct business. Let's not mention the indifference and coldness to how the nations where they outsource their jobs exploits its workers. Especially workers of other races.
Instead of "racist," why not say "fascist?" That's just as precise as "racist" and just as likely to resolve the issue, and nobody likes fascists, either.
 
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Ken-1122

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It's racist for these businesses not to care about the negative consequences of their economic activities because it's happening outside their country, far away, and only affects other races, mostly.
Racist against which race of people?
 
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Their problem is 'classism' and is similar to racism in many ways like the oppression and exploitation of the poor and weak.
Just call it "fascism." That's another one of those words used just for shock value.
 
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At some point in history, people practiced slavery globally, Christians, Muslims, pagans, etc. Or exploited the weak and poor for cheap source of labor. Exploitation of the weak and poor for cheap labor still rampant today and even many Western nations are complicit to it.

Essentially, the poor built the wealth of the rich. The foundation of the world's wealth is built upon a history of slavery and exploitation of the weak and poor.

This is why Jesus referred to 'wealth' as "Unrighteous Wealth". In Greek translations, Jesus could also be referring to "Wealth from Injustice". It's essentially the same and true enough, the world's wealth is ultimately sourced from exploitation of the weak and poor and is injustice. It's found in Luke 16:19. Jesus isn't accusing anyone here they made money through dishonest means like stealing or cheating.

Wealth generates wealth so even today, where our money/incomes came from will ultimately be traced all the way back in time we first made trade with another person thousands of years ago, including the times when slavery is rampant.

Since the world built its wealth upon the exploitation of the poor, the only way this "unrighteous wealth" can be made right is by giving it back to the poor in one way or the other. In Luke 16:19, Jesus is telling everyone to make friends with unrighteous wealth. What Jesus meant there to make friends is help the poor and needy with money. By helping the poor, you win them as friends. You help undo the injustice done to them by the rich for many thousands of years.

I think racism is ultimately blamed to the love of money or greed. Slaves are often employed to generate wealth for the rich.

Racism is still rampant today in USA and other rich countries. A general attitude is the lack of care, indifference towards other races suffering from pollution, climate change, and exploitation caused directly or indirectly by USA's economic activities. Again, this is rooted towards the love of money / greed.
I'd say racism (racist ideas) do exist but perhaps that is natural to any culture. The problem, IMHO, is systemic racism (racism as a part of the system). That is absent in the US (towards minorities), although predjudices still exist.
 
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RDKirk

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I'd say racism (racist ideas) do exist but perhaps that is natural to any culture. The problem, IMHO, is systemic racism (racism as a part of the system). That is absent in the US (towards minorities), although predjudices still exist.
Pretty much absent. I could imagine,, for instance, that somewhere there are court precedents still in use from trials that had originally been decided on racist grounds. Some state surely has a racist law that they haven't gotten around to repealing, but has been nullified by federal laws. But, as I've said before, "The fix is in." The government does not have to turn in any new directions on that issue at this point.
 
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Stephen3141

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My husband and I are both white. He and his family are currently, and generally, less religious and more progressive than mine, but his (historically) is MUCH more Southern and slave-owning than mine. In fact, all his family has Southern and slave-owning past, whereas mine doesn't on either paternal or maternal side.

My dad's family are all WASPs and Irish/Scottish from the upper northeast (Massachusetts, Vermont, etc.) who never held or owned slaves. My mom's are all Germans/Norwegians/Hutterites from the upper midwest (Minnesota, South Dakota, etc.) who came to the US in the 1800s and also never had slaves.

In recent years, I've noticed a change from individualistic and historical focus of racism, toward more 'systemic' focus. The idea is, it doesn't really matter that my husband's family was historically slave-owning, whereas mine were in regions where slavery never occurred. The focus now is, both nonetheless benefited from 'white privilege,' so it doesn't matter if one's white families had slaves or not. What matters now is, if they are allies, or at least voting Democrat in greater numbers. In that case, my husband's family is generally more progressive now, even if they have purely Southern and slave-owning roots.

Do you agree with that perspective: is it better to have a family that "currently" is overall more progressive and voting Democrat, even if that family is purely slave-owning and Southern in its past, than it is to come from a family with no slavery, even if that family is currently slightly more third-party or Republican in its voting?
Curiously, I think that we can learn a lot from the law that God gave to Moses. It talks about "you shall not show partiality or favoritism" in applying God's law, to all who live in the land of Israel. (This is the quote, that James is alluding to in chapter 2.)

America, is a different situation. America is not a theocracy. Although most of the founding fathers associated some Christian group or another, the Constitution is not explicitly a christian morality document.

In American law, if a group is found to be guilty of some crime, then the guilt of individuals depends on the ability to prove their membership in this group. This is a very basic legal principle.

The more primal legal consideration, is what "groups" are relevant, when considering "crimes". And THIS, is the more relevant consideration.

At the final judgment, we will be judged according to our individual actions. In divine justice, it is the individual actions, upon which justice rests. This is a key, biblical view of justice.

Christians may want to think about MULTIPLE topics, related to justice. But, be very careful to identify assertions that are biblical, from assertions that are secular, but may be popular in current American culture.
-----------------------------

Some of the problems that the younger (especially) generations in America have, are;

1. Only a few categories/groups are thought to be relevant. Such as race (not a scientific category), sex and native culture.

2. Often, individuals are arbitrarily imputed to be a member of a popular/unpopular group.

3. Often, intentions are imputed to popular/unpopular groups, regardless of the intentions of the individual, to whom they are imputed. Note (as Bauerline has recognized), younger American generations do not read much, and so are not familiar with the MANY motivation/intentions that a human being may have. this ignorance feeds the myth that a person that does some action, MUST have some specific intention, that younger Americans associate with this action.

4. Blame groups, or virtue groups that are popular with younger Americans, are not particularly the biblical groups (if any) that are considered to be relevant, in the deciding of guilt.

5. Often, there are laws on the books in America, that are just, but are not enforced. This opens up the question of who is responsible for enforcing laws, in a pagan country like America? Law enforcement agents? Vigilantes/

6. In America, an individual is acknowledged to be able to "identify" with some group or another, if the group is popular. But in arbitrary situations, a person is not acknowledged as NOT identifying with some arbitrary group or another. This sort of identification (or not), has little to do with justice, or a fair rule of law.

7. younger Americans tend to exonerate those who engage in criminal activity, IF they are members of some popular group. This is a denial of objective justice.

8. The blame (or virtue) that younger Americans want to impute to a person, can arbitrarily be done by asserting that that person is a member of some (supposed) blame group, or virtuous group. In this way, popular imputing can arbitrarily make out the same person to be guilty, or innocent, or virtuous, any time they want. This is not a function of objective evidence or justice, but a function of the emotions of a crowd. (In the past, Americans would call these crowds lynch mobs, etc. Today, they often pass as assertions of social justice, etc.

9. The arbitrary imputing of guilt/virtue to a person, is a denial of basic logical causality (such as in, "If A, then B" or A ==> B). This arbitrary asserting of causality, is due to abandoning formal logic, and arbitrarily asserting causality.

10. the younger generations in America have poor language skills (this is where Malcolm X started out). They cannot precisely describe what they think, or what a fair rule of law is, or what justice is. They use slogans about justice, and fairness, and oppression, and guilt, but cannot coherently discuss basic foundational concepts of a fair rule of law.

This is a partial list of the problems with the current system of social justice/ political correctness. And these trends are incompatible with a fair rule of law, and incompatible with orthodox Christian morality.

I have no problem with creating a society based on justice.
But this is not what the younger American generations are trying to do.
(And this is not what older racists, are trying to do.)
 
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stevevw

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My husband and I are both white. He and his family are currently, and generally, less religious and more progressive than mine, but his (historically) is MUCH more Southern and slave-owning than mine. In fact, all his family has Southern and slave-owning past, whereas mine doesn't on either paternal or maternal side.

My dad's family are all WASPs and Irish/Scottish from the upper northeast (Massachusetts, Vermont, etc.) who never held or owned slaves. My mom's are all Germans/Norwegians/Hutterites from the upper midwest (Minnesota, South Dakota, etc.) who came to the US in the 1800s and also never had slaves.

In recent years, I've noticed a change from individualistic and historical focus of racism, toward more 'systemic' focus. The idea is, it doesn't really matter that my husband's family was historically slave-owning, whereas mine were in regions where slavery never occurred. The focus now is, both nonetheless benefited from 'white privilege,' so it doesn't matter if one's white families had slaves or not. What matters now is, if they are allies, or at least voting Democrat in greater numbers. In that case, my husband's family is generally more progressive now, even if they have purely Southern and slave-owning roots.

Do you agree with that perspective: is it better to have a family that "currently" is overall more progressive and voting Democrat, even if that family is purely slave-owning and Southern in its past, than it is to come from a family with no slavery, even if that family is currently slightly more third-party or Republican in its voting?
I disagree with the ideology of CRT as it assumes that whites and the system they live in is inherrently racist. It sterotypes and assumes mindsets which has no basis but rather is divisive.
 
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RDKirk

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I disagree with the ideology of CRT as it assumes that whites and the system they live in is inherrently racist. It sterotypes and assumes mindsets which has no basis but rather is divisive.
The basic failure of CRT today (I've said this before) is that it's data is locked to the early 80s. It all worked, it all made sense, it was valid in 1980. But it presumes nothing has changed since then.
 
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