Systemic racism in the USA: Are whites "guiltier" if they had slavery in their past?

[timewerx]

The clearly observable lessening of pollution in the US occurred decades before "globalization" of labor.

That's not surprising if the pollution-cutting measures did worked and I would expect even less pollution during globalization.

But not much less because cheaper products due to outsourcing of labor will lead to more spending activity which may even create more pollution like more waste products.

The outsourcing concept in itself is racist / classist. It's a loophole to 'underpay' your workers by using the system of a poor / corrupt country. They reason the 'low' cost of living in a poor country justifies the wages. If that is true then why are there so many people die trying to enter rich / developed nations like USA?? USA outsource jobs to Mexico for example but many Mexicans still die trying to enter USA. Clearly the outsourcing wages are still not enough. Not even remotely enough.

 

[Ken-1122]

I'm sure better technology and improved business standards to cutting down pollution did help to improve the situation.

And then US outsourcing its manufacturing and many other jobs to countries with cheap labor. Surely it's obvious, when you move your factories and offices elsewhere, the pollution it makes goes away in your country and moves to the countries you outsourced these jobs.

It's so obvious you don't need data to see what's going on.

Oh wait, there's more, USA exporting their waste to poor / developing countries. Countries with poor waste management so that much of this waste actually ends up in the oceans, killing marine life and causing unwanted mutations.

US Waste Exporting Explained - Purpose Rising Blog

What’s the dark side of waste processing? Learn more about how the plastic products and packagings used by you affect someone on the other side of the world.

repurpose.global

Some jobs are exported to Countries where pollution standards are not like they are in the USA. But 60 years ago, extreme poverty; even starvation was a regular thing in some of those countries; but today it is rare. So what's your point? Are you suggesting things were much better in those countries before than now? If that's your point; I've got a feeling some of those people will disagree with you.

 

[Ken-1122]

It's not meant to be.

So in post #333 you were not trying to convince RDKirk of your claim? If not; perhaps I’ve misunderstood you.

 

[timewerx]

Some jobs are exported to Countries where pollution standards are not like they are in the USA. But 60 years ago, extreme poverty; even starvation was a regular thing in some of those countries; but today it is rare. So what's your point? Are you suggesting things were much better in those countries before than now? If that's your point; I've got a feeling some of those people will disagree with you.

So USA is aware it's exporting its high energy, high material demand work like manufacturing to countries where pollution standards are horrible. That means they are turning a blind eye to the problems it will cause just for the sake of bigger profits.

Definitely not something a truly successful person would do. But more like a drug addict who only cares about their short term need of getting a 'high' at the greater expense of their health.

True, there's less starvation but now we have 7 million people dying from air pollution related illnesses every year. And another 5.5 million people dying from climate change related deaths like extremes in temperature, storms, forest fire, droughts, famine, etc.

Not to mention a continuing trend in the rise of global temperatures every year.

Not progress nor success at all but monumental failure.

 

[RDKirk]

That's not surprising if the pollution-cutting measures did worked and I would expect even less pollution during globalization.

But not much less because cheaper products due to outsourcing of labor will lead to more spending activity which may even create more pollution like more waste products.

The outsourcing concept in itself is racist / classist. It's a loophole to 'underpay' your workers by using the system of a poor / corrupt country. They reason the 'low' cost of living in a poor country justifies the wages. If that is true then why are there so many people die trying to enter rich / developed nations like USA?? USA outsource jobs to Mexico for example but many Mexicans still die trying to enter USA. Clearly the outsourcing wages are still not enough. Not even remotely enough.

Manufacturing didn't stay in Mexico, it went to China and elsewhere. But remember that during the Reagan Era, it had first moved from the northeast to the non-unionized south.

The American standard of living has always depended on subsistence-level labor.

 

[timothyu]

That means they are turning a blind eye to the problems it will cause just for the sake of bigger profits.

Its called double dipping. Bigger profit from less wages and then the start of an entire new industry to clean up the environment from the mess they made. And the best part is this time unlike the 70's, they don't pay but we do for something we are not responsible for.

 

[Ken-1122]

So USA is aware it's exporting its high energy, high material demand work like manufacturing to countries where pollution standards are horrible.

Not all manufacturing jobs are shipped overseas; but for those that are, what percentage are to countries where pollution standards are horrible? I don’t know; do you?

That means they are turning a blind eye to the problems it will cause just for the sake of bigger profits.

Individual corporations do this, and only shareholders of those corporations have a say so; most people have no control over this.

Definitely not something a truly successful person would do. But more like a drug addict who only cares about their short term need of getting a 'high' at the greater expense of their health.

The fact that many of these corporations are extremely successful proves you wrong.

True, there's less starvation but now we have 7 million people dying from air pollution related illnesses every year. And another 5.5 million people dying from climate change related deaths like extremes in temperature, storms, forest fire, droughts, famine, etc.

How many people were dying from air pollution 60 years ago when it was much worse? How many were dying from storms, forest fire, droughts or famine 60 years ago?

 

[timewerx]

Not all manufacturing jobs are shipped overseas; but for those that are, what percentage are to countries where pollution standards are horrible? I don’t know; do you?

Individual corporations do this, and only shareholders of those corporations have a say so; most people have no control over this.

The fact that many of these corporations are extremely successful proves you wrong.

How many people were dying from air pollution 60 years ago when it was much worse? How many were dying from storms, forest fire, droughts or famine 60 years ago?

USA remains the biggest goods trading partner of China. So I doubt we're talking of a small percentage here and even local manufacturing can still be importing significant amount of parts and materials from China.

It wouldn't matter if more or less people are dying from air pollution 60 years ago. These millions of deaths just has to stop or perhaps, you just don't care because all your loved ones live a privileged life and likely to live a very long life, not die prematurely to some pollution related illnesses nor due to climate change. I'll give you an analogy.

Would you be happy if a thief stole $20,000 from you and then they make a promise to steal only $18,000 next time? Would it be better if they stop stealing from you and better yet, return all the things they stole + additional compensation for the trouble?

Ironically, most of the pollution, most of these deaths are from poor/developing countries. Would it be racist for USA to be indifferent to these problems they cause in other countries, to other races as long as it's making them tons of money?

 

[Ken-1122]

It wouldn't matter if more or less people are dying from air pollution 60 years ago.

It does matter; it is impossible to live life free of waste. The goal is to get it as low as possible and when less people are affected, that means things are going in the right direction.

These millions of deaths just has to stop or perhaps, you just don't care because all your loved ones live a privileged life and likely to live a very long life, not die prematurely to some pollution related illnesses nor due to climate change. I'll give you an analogy.

Would you be happy if a thief stole $20,000 from you and then they make a promise to steal only $18,000 next time? Would it be better if they stop stealing from you and better yet, return all the things they stole + additional compensation for the trouble?

We don’t have the ability to live life free of waste, but we do have the ability to live life without a thief stealing from us; so your analogy fails.

Ironically, most of the pollution, most of these deaths are from poor/developing countries. Would it be racist for USA to be indifferent to these problems they cause in other countries, to other races as long as it's making them tons of money?

Racist??? What on Earth does racism have to do with any of this stuff? If the USA were causing problems for them, they would ask us to stop. Do you have any evidence of China or India asking us to stop doing business with them?

 

[timothyu]

Do you have any evidence of China or India asking us to stop doing business with them?

Who would ask.. the government or the people?

 

[Ken-1122]

Who would ask.. the government or the people?

Both.

 

[timewerx]

We don’t have the ability to live life free of waste, but we do have the ability to live life without a thief stealing from us; so your analogy fails.

Racist??? What on Earth does racism have to do with any of this stuff? If the USA were causing problems for them, they would ask us to stop. Do you have any evidence of China or India asking us to stop doing business with them?

Actually I used a very benign analogy. If I really need to get to the point, a better analogy would be what if this year you lose three of your loved ones to pollution-related deaths and then next year, you lost only two of your loved ones to pollution. Would you consider that an improvement?

You probably can't relate to the pain since you probably live in USA or somewhere where you don't breathe polluted air and you hardly know of anyone close to you dying to pollution related illnesses.

We can reduce our pollution and waste quite dramatically if companies stop depending on a business model where you influence people to upgrade their stuff or buy new models as stupidly as often in a whim instead of according to actual need not just some shallow/petty need.

Big businesses used to thrive on a much less ridiculous business model in the mid 20th century that didn't depended on their customers buying new models all the time. It's even more feasible now with far superior technology.

 

[timewerx]

Who would ask.. the government or the people?

Both China and India is also plagued by greed.

Greed is endemic to their society and may even be worse than in USA. So I doubt they will refuse any deals what make them a lot of money even if it makes their pollution problems a lot worse.

The rich in those countries often just travel around the world, live somewhere nice and clean so they don't really care how much it ruins the worst parts of their countries.

 

[Ken-1122]

Actually I used a very benign analogy. If I really need to get to the point, a better analogy would be what if this year you lose three of your loved ones to pollution-related deaths and then next year, you lost only two of your loved ones to pollution. Would you consider that an improvement?

I would rather 3 of my relatives die of pollution-related deaths than to have 10 of my relatives die of starvation, and another 20 die in ways technology prevents people from dying today; like the toxins released into the air from wood burning stoves and wood burning fireplaces. Today nobody uses those things, everybody is using electric or gas heaters which are much saver; especially for those with respiratory conditions.

You probably can't relate to the pain since you probably live in USA or somewhere where you don't breathe polluted air and you hardly know of anyone close to you dying to pollution related illnesses.

We can reduce our pollution and waste quite dramatically if companies stop depending on a business model where you influence people to upgrade their stuff or buy new models as stupidly as often in a whim instead of according to actual need not just some shallow/petty need.

Big businesses used to thrive on a much less ridiculous business model in the mid 20th century that didn't depended on their customers buying new models all the time. It's even more feasible now with far superior technology.

In the mid 20th century business of that time did depend on people buying the newest gadgets of that time. As a matter of fact, during those times, products didn’t last as long as they do today so people were forced to buy new stuff because the stuff they bought didn’t last as long as today

Also aren’t you contributing to the problems you are complaining about by buying a computer and getting internet service in order to connect to this website? Seems to me if you were true to your convictions, we wouldn’t be having this conversation right now.

 

[timewerx]

Also aren’t you contributing to the problems you are complaining about by buying a computer and getting internet service in order to connect to this website? Seems to me if you were true to your convictions, we wouldn’t be having this conversation right now.

So now you agree with me it's a problem.

I can't deny I'm contributing to the problem. But at least I'm doing considerable effort to minimize it.

For starters, I've switched to bicycle as my main mode of transport for the last few years. I use it even for a 100 mile commute or hauling 50 lbs worth of groceries in weight. It's 100% human powered. So no big batteries to pollute during its manufacture and disposal.

And then I hold on to my gadgets like phone for over 10 years. This computer I use is already 12 years old and I maintain it myself. Most of my clothes are over 10 years old. My car is 20 years old I also maintain myself but rarely used anymore since I prefer using the bicycle now for economical transport and doubles as exercise as well.

Then I don't indulge myself in food. I stick to a healthy lifestyle of diet and exercise. No junk foods, no fast foods. I am in great shape and in good health without relying on a single pharmaceutical product.

Even so, I still don't consider myself successful in my own standard and still part of the problem until day I'm able to live without causing pollution nor waste. Not proud of the fact I'm still contributing to pollution or waste even if only little.

How about you?

In the mid 20th century business of that time did depend on people buying the newest gadgets of that time. As a matter of fact, during those times, products didn’t last as long as they do today so people were forced to buy new stuff because the stuff they bought didn’t last as long as today

Many of our stuff in the 80's lasted over 20 years like the fridge, TV, oven, radio. etc. We even had 1967 German-made VW Beetle our family used up to the mid 90's. We sold the Beetle cheaply to a relative who used it another 10 years so the car reach almost 40 years of use since the last time I saw it running. The VW Beetle wasn't a classic car during our use so it was cheap to maintain, in fact, even cheaper to maintain than the new subcompacts of the time.

Let's say I agree with you that products today lasts even longer. But how many people these days, especially those earning well above the minimum wage don't upgrade their phones, other gadgets, cars, etc for at least 10 years?

 

[Ken-1122]

So now you agree with me it's a problem.

I never said there was a problem, I said YOU claim there is a problem. I personally don't think there are enough people dying from climate change issues in order to change my current lifestyle.

Many of our stuff in the 80's lasted over 20 years like the fridge, TV, oven, radio. etc. We even had 1967 German-made VW Beetle our family used up to the mid 90's. We sold the Beetle cheaply to a relative who used it another 10 years so the car reach almost 40 years of use since the last time I saw it running. The VW Beetle wasn't a classic car during our use so it was cheap to maintain, in fact, even cheaper to maintain than the new subcompacts of the time.

60 years ago, it was not common to go to a junk yard and see cars with 50K-60K miles on the odometer. Today at a used car lot, that would be considered low miles.

Let's say I agree with you that products today lasts even longer. But how many people these days, especially those earning well above the minimum wage don't upgrade their phones, other gadgets, cars, etc for at least 10 years?

New appliances use less electricity than the old stuff. So when people upgrade to new appliances, they are using less energy which helps with the problems you are complaining about. By hanging on to old equipment that uses more energy and causes more waste than the new stuff, you are contributing to the problem you are complaining about.

 

[RDKirk]

60 years ago, it was not common to go to a junk yard and see cars with 50K-60K miles on the odometer. Today at a used car lot, that would be considered low miles.

One hundred thousand miles was considered an achievement. Popular Mechanics magazine had annual articles about how to maintain cars to reach 100,000 miles.

 

[timewerx]

I personally don't think there are enough people dying from climate change issues in order to change my current lifestyle.

If you think 12 million deaths per year from preventable causes is not enough to concern you, then I suppose we'll never agree on the subject.

60 years ago, it was not common to go to a junk yard and see cars with 50K-60K miles on the odometer. Today at a used car lot, that would be considered low miles.

Our classic German and Mexican VW Beetles did around 400 and 300K kilometers during the 80's and 90's. Both sold to relatives in excellent mechanical condition. Dad never liked American cars at the time due to higher fuel consumption and higher cost of maintenance. The one ingenious thing about the classic beetles is they are ridiculously uncomplicated machines. Very easy to maintain, even on your own!

New appliances use less electricity than the old stuff. So when people upgrade to new appliances, they are using less energy which helps with the problems you are complaining about. By hanging on to old equipment that uses more energy and causes more waste than the new stuff, you are contributing to the problem you are complaining about.

That was in the 80's and 90's.

We did replace our high power consumption appliances in recent years. The two TV's in the house are less 5 years old LED TV's, both in very modest size of 43". A/C is also less than 5 years old with full inverter technology. Inverter washing machine bought three years ago. Fridge was 2015 which was not yet inverter tech but the most efficient we ever had. Both microwave and toaster is less than two years old.

Our 20 year old car still does 35 mpg but is irrelevant since I seldom use car anymore. I commute and buy groceries by bicycle all the time now.

I am trying my best to do according to my convictions. It's not perfect. Not enough to be proud of. And certainly not enough to be considered a success in my own standard of success but I remain hopeful that eventually, I'll reach my goals.

 

[timothyu]

The one ingenious thing about the classic beetles is they are ridiculously uncomplicated machines. Very easy to maintain, even on your own!

The one thing we can thank Adolf for.

 

[Ken-1122]

We did replace our high power consumption appliances in recent years. The two TV's in the house are less 5 years old LED TV's, both in very modest size of 43". A/C is also less than 5 years old with full inverter technology. Inverter washing machine bought three years ago. Fridge was 2015 which was not yet inverter tech but the most efficient we ever had. Both microwave and toaster is less than two years old.

Wow good for you! 2 LED TV’s, A/C, washing machines, Fridge, Microwave and Toasters all less than 5 years old? Sounds like you’ve done your share of buying new models haven’t you, but on Post #364 you were complaining about people upgrading their stuff and buying new models as stupid due to some shallow/petty need! So…… is it okay now to buy the latest and greatest since you occasionally do it?