Why "Absent From The Body" Does NOT Support Immortal Soul Doctrine

[BobRyan]

; we necessarily must think of either a figurative or a literal 'thousand years' and in our mental noise ignore the nature of that reign.

Our 'concrete thinking' is temporal, but the facts are more solid, eternal, permanent.

Noah presented a prediction about the future that was "concrete" and required effective action for individuals to avoid disaster
John the baptizer presented a prediction about the first coming of Christ that was "concrete" and required effective action for individuals to avoid loss.
NT authors (as well as Christ in Matt 24) presented a prediction about the future coming of Christ that is "concrete" requires effective action for individuals to avoid loss - for example in vs 25-31

Matt 24:
25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

In that same chapter -- Jesus said this is just as "concrete" as was Noah's prediction and almost everyone will miss the warning -- as they all did in Noah's day

=============================

In other words - the correct solution was never found in "ignoring enough details" in the warning messages given.

 

[Mark Quayle]

In other words - the correct solution was never found in "ignoring enough details" in the warning messages given.

Did I suggest ignoring details? Not sure what you are getting at here. I didn't argue against either concrete nor figurative.

Incidentally, FWIW, the warnings concerning the concrete events to come, are not so much concerning recognizing and preparing for them as they are about living for Christ. The habit of disobedience will relegate the wary to impotence against what is to come, even if he sees that "it is starting to rain."

 

[BobRyan]

FWIW, the warnings concerning the concrete events to come, are not so much concerning recognizing and preparing for them as they are about living for Christ.

Matt 24:
42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you must be ready as well; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Mark 13:
32 But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
33 “Watch out, stay alert; for you do not know when the appointed time is. 34 It is like a man away on a journey, who upon leaving his house and putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay alert. 35 Therefore, stay alert—for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning— 36 so that he does not come suddenly and find you asleep. 37 What I say to you I say to all: ‘Stay alert!’”

1 Thess 5:
Now as to the periods and times, brothers and sisters, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord is coming just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction will come upon them like labor pains upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness, so that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then, let’s not sleep as others do, but let’s be alert and sober.



2 Thess 2: 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

Be on the alert... you must be ready... is exactly the solution Jesus gives and it is not opposed to "live for Christ" - but it certainly is a very strong prepare, be ready, be on the alert message.

2 Peter 3:
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace,

 

[BobRyan]

What is the big problem at the time of Noah according to Christ in Matt 24? -- deception into thinking Noah's Warning did not matter
what was the big problem in heaven with no sin, no sinful nature, all sinless beings living to serve God? -- deception - Satan took 1/3 of angels
what was the big problem on Earth with sinless Adam and Eve living to serve God? - deception - Satan took mankind into his snare
what is the big problem 2 Thess 2 at the end of time ? deception
what is the big problem in Rev 13 at the end of time? deception

 

[SabbathBlessings]

What is the big problem at the time of Noah according to Christ in Matt 24? -- deception into thinking Noah's Warning did not matter
what was the big problem in heaven with no sin, no sinful nature, all sinless beings living to serve God? -- deception - Satan took 1/3 of angels
what was the big problem on Earth with sinless Adam and Eve living to serve God? - deception - Satan took mankind into his snare
what is the big problem 2 Thess 2 at the end of time ? deception
what is the big problem in Rev 13 at the end of time? deception

Yes! The first thing Jesus said when asked what is the sign of His return?

Matthew 24"3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Regardless of the view one takes here, as to the numbers of resurrections and other questions, it may be worth bearing in mind through all of it, that the church is called the Body of Christ. This may be relevant as literal fact upon the death of those God has saved.

We necessarily see a passage of time until Christ returns, not quite being able to conceive of what the form of a timeless bodily return and gathering of the elect will take; we necessarily must think of either a figurative or a literal 'thousand years' and in our mental noise ignore the nature of that reign.

Our 'concrete thinking' is temporal, but the facts are more solid, eternal, permanent.

While it's true that Christ's followers are God's people, it's also true that many of God's people are in Babylon and in grave danger if they don't come out.

Did y'all just hear the record needle on "Kumbaya"
come scratching to a halt?​

All of a sudden, eschatology is important, right? All of a sudden, doctrine in important, right? All of a sudden, it's not enough to just hug each other and say "Jesus loves you", right?

• Now we have to decide whether we are Once Saved Always Saved (false) or if salvation is on conditional that we "come out of her (Babylon), My people" and gain a fully Biblical belief in God that we don't wind up lost.
• Now we have to decide if Revelation 18:4 refers to "left behind Jews"(false) or "on time Christians".
• Now we have to decide if the saints in 1 Thessalonians 4:14 which God brings "with Him" refers to saints brought back "with Him" to Earth from heaven at the Second Coming (false) or saints that are "brought forth with Him from the tomb" as God brought forth Jesus from the tomb.
• Now we have to decide if the dead saints go straight to heaven at death (false) or wait in the tomb until the Resurrection of the Just.
• Now we have do decide if "Samuel" was actually dead Samuel who was compelled by the irresistible power of Satan to materialize before Saul (false) or was a demon impersonating Samuel.

Sure, we can trust the word of the "authorities" that their Gospel "inoculation" is safe and effective instead of doing our own research, but we see how that's been working out lately, right?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Matt 24:
42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you must be ready as well; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Mark 13:
32 But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
33 “Watch out, stay alert; for you do not know when the appointed time is. 34 It is like a man away on a journey, who upon leaving his house and putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay alert. 35 Therefore, stay alert—for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning— 36 so that he does not come suddenly and find you asleep. 37 What I say to you I say to all: ‘Stay alert!’”

1 Thess 5:
Now as to the periods and times, brothers and sisters, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord is coming just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction will come upon them like labor pains upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness, so that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then, let’s not sleep as others do, but let’s be alert and sober.



2 Thess 2: 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

Be on the alert... you must be ready... is exactly the solution Jesus gives and it is not opposed to "live for Christ" - but it certainly is a very strong prepare, be ready, be on the alert message.

2 Peter 3:
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace,

The tone of what you have written, quoted and highlighted seems to be posted in opposition to what I said. You perhaps may not see why I said it, since, it seems, to you the "being alert" etc sounds mostly physical/mental, and not so much spiritual/behavioral. But I see you included 2 Peter 3, which very plainly refers to behavior and faith, so I'm not sure what you think.

To prepare, to be ready, to be on the alert, is very much a spiritual/behavioral activity, directly in opposition to the notion that one can idle their way through life and everything will be alright. This is why I specifically reference obedience. Scripture has much to say, not only about disaster, but the reasons for disaster, and how it stands in stark (and sudden) opposition to the mantra of peace and ease of life. Disaster for old Israel came always as a result of disobedience, and submission and obedience were necessarily part of its cure.

Notice too, how well the idea fits, that God himself is to be our rest, as opposed to our resting in our position, attainments, knowledge nor habitual lack of extreme persecution or other antagonistic problems. But, yeah, you didn't say otherwise. I just have a problem with some of the preachers and teachers, particularly the dispensationalists I grew up learning from, who concentrate on the signs of the times and correct interpretation, and don't seem to think obedience is of particular issue. There is a lot Scripture has to say about sin taking over —owning— a person. If, for example, one even does figure out what is the Mark of the Beast, but has the habit of disobedience, what is there to make him think he will even be ABLE to avoid the mark?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Now we have do decide if "Samuel" was actually dead Samuel who was compelled by the irresistible power of Satan to materialize before Saul (false) or was a demon impersonating Samuel.

It was Samuel, but the how the dead spend their time is irrelevant. Grumpy Samuel may well have been brought by God for the purpose, regardless of where or, from our POV, 'when', he came from. God does not need the passage of time to put Samuel anywhere on the timeline he wants to.

 

[BobRyan]

The tone of what you have written, quoted and highlighted seems to be posted in opposition to what I said.

I was simply showing texts that emphasize the "warning" - the "be alert, be ready, prepare, watchout" aspect.

I agree fully that walking with Christ is the right thing to do.

But it is like saying "being 100% attentive as you drive down the road is the right thing" -- yet still we have signs "reduce speed ahead", "bridge out ahead", "Single lane bride ahead", "Congestion ahead", "icy conditions ahead' etc... We would see it all as we come upon it - but the truth is that 100% focus all the time is not possible after a few hours of driving so having some helpful warnings along the way is much needed.

To prepare, to be ready, to be on the alert, is very much a spiritual/behavioral activity, directly in opposition to the notion that one can idle their way through life and everything will be alright.

Agreed.

 

[Phoneman-777]

It was Samuel, but the how the dead spend their time is irrelevant. Grumpy Samuel may well have been brought by God for the purpose, regardless of where or, from our POV, 'when', he came from. God does not need the passage of time to put Samuel anywhere on the timeline he wants to.

I can't see any Biblical way that was Samuel who spoke to Saul and the witch:

Solomon said:
the "dead know not anything".
the dead don't "have anything to do with anything that is done under the sun".
the dead don't possess wisdom, knowledge, emotions or memory, all of which "Samuel" clearly possessed.
the dead are "in silence".

Job said:
the dead will not "wake or be raised out of their sleep".
the dead "rise not again, until the heavens be no more".

God alone:
"I have the keys of death and hell".
the dead "shall hear the voice of the Son of Man, and shall come forth".

No agent of evil will ever have power over the dead or living saints, therefore there's no way a witch compelled the real Samuel to rise and appear before her in audience, nor any way God would cooperate with a witch in order to perpetuate any such falsehood of the same.

"All things being equal, the simplest answer is likely the correct answer". - The Gospel according to Occam. It was a demon aka familiar spirit which 1 Chronicles 10 confirms.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I can't see any Biblical way that was Samuel who spoke to Saul and the witch:

Solomon said:
the "dead know not anything".
the dead don't "have anything to do with anything that is done under the sun".
the dead don't possess wisdom, knowledge, emotions or memory, all of which "Samuel" clearly possessed.
the dead are "in silence".

Job said:
the dead will not "wake or be raised out of their sleep".
the dead "rise not again, until the heavens be no more".

God alone:
"I have the keys of death and hell".
the dead "shall hear the voice of the Son of Man, and shall come forth".

No agent of evil will ever have power over the dead or living saints, therefore there's no way a witch compelled the real Samuel to rise and appear before her in audience, nor any way God would cooperate with a witch in order to perpetuate any such falsehood of the same.

"All things being equal, the simplest answer is likely the correct answer". - The Gospel according to Occam. It was a demon aka familiar spirit which 1 Chronicles 10 confirms.

Samuel was alive, is the simplest answer.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Samuel was alive, is the simplest answer.

Only possible if he had been resurrected - because the dead do not "have anything to do with anything that is done under the sun". So, are you saying a satanic witch has the power to resurrect the dead saints?

The simplest answer is that it was a demonic deception.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Only possible if he had been resurrected - because the dead do not "have anything to do with anything that is done under the sun". So, are you saying a satanic witch has the power to resurrect the dead saints?

The simplest answer is that it was a demonic deception.

The Bible says it was Samuel. It doesn't read as that of demonic deception. The woman certainly doesn't seem to have expected Samuel, and when she sees him she realizes who Saul was.

And no, it has nothing to do with any human's power. Besides, you don't know he wasn't resurrected. God doesn't operate according to our timeline.

 

[YahuahSaves]

John identifies two resurrections here:

John 5: 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.​

And then here:

Rev 20:​

And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.​

In John 5 the first resurrection is the "resurrection of life" and in Rev 20 "over these the second death has no power"
In John 5 the second resurrection he lists is "the resurrection of condemnation", in Rev 20 it is judgment and the lake of fire.

The entire Christian church is focused on the first resurrection as we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and Matt 24:29-31 - Peter says to fix our hope completely on that event --

1 Pet 1:13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Jesus was speaking about those who believe in Him will "live", it's not about physical resurrection but about being born-again.

John 5:24-26

24 “I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

25 “And I assure you that the time is coming, indeed it’s here now, when the dead will hear my voice—the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live. 26 The Father has life in himself, and he has granted that same life-giving power to his Son.

Passage 30 goes on to say:

30 I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.

This shows me Jesus was talking about spiritual life and death, he used metaphors (parables) a lot when he explained things to people.

Revelation 20 talks about physical and spiritual resurrection and death. The final judgement is for our deeds. We are all judged but those in Christ will escape the second death.

The Final Judgment

11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. 14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.

An example of a saved person at the final judgement is 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

10 Because of God’s grace to me, I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one we already have—Jesus Christ.

12 Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials—gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. 13 But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. 14 If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. 15 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.

 

[Phoneman-777]

The Bible says it was Samuel.

Yes, because the familiar spirit was IMPERSONATING Samuel.

It doesn't read as that of demonic deception. The woman certainly doesn't seem to have expected Samuel, and when she sees him she realizes who Saul was.

It is was really Samuel, the Bible is a lie and we must throw it out.
If it was a demonic deception, the Bible is still true when it says the dead don't know anything, don't have emotions, don't speak or hear anything, see anything, are involved in anything, etc.

And no, it has nothing to do with any human's power. Besides, you don't know he wasn't resurrected. God doesn't operate according to our timeline.

I know the text says the witch is the one who raised up "Samuel" from below...why would Samuel have to travel up from down there when he, if it was really Samuel, should have traveled from up there to the witch down here?

The only way that entity could truly have been Samuel is if he'd been resurrected from the dead...are you saying the witch called for Samuel to come up and God complied with her request in such a way to make it look like she had power over dead Samuel? Would God share His glory with evil by making it appear she had such power? Does God cooperate with evil?

Does not Scripture say there was a "familiar spirit" with the witch? You realize a "familiar spirit" is a demonic deception, right?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes, because the familiar spirit was IMPERSONATING Samuel.

It is was really Samuel, the Bible is a lie and we must throw it out.
If it was a demonic deception, the Bible is still true when it says the dead don't know anything, don't have emotions, don't speak or hear anything, see anything, are involved in anything, etc.

I know the text says the witch is the one who raised up "Samuel" from below...why would Samuel have to travel up from down there when he, if it was really Samuel, should have traveled from up there to the witch down here?

The only way that entity could truly have been Samuel is if he'd been resurrected from the dead...are you saying the witch called for Samuel to come up and God complied with her request in such a way to make it look like she had power over dead Samuel? Would God share His glory with evil by making it appear she had such power? Does God cooperate with evil?

Does not Scripture say there was a "familiar spirit" with the witch? You realize a "familiar spirit" is a demonic deception, right?

Are you saying she had power over the impersonator?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Are you saying she had power over the impersonator?

Satan fatally ensnares humans by, among other things, making them think they've power over the dead - conversely, God says He gives His glory to no one, especially the glory His power to resurrect brings Him.

That's how we know "Samuel" wasn't resurrected by the witch or God.

• because satan has no power over death and if God raised him, His glory would've gone to the witch...
• because "the dead know not anything"...
• because the dead "have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun"...

Yes, the Bible called it "Samuel"...because it took the form of Samuel.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Satan fatally ensnares humans by, among other things, making them think they've power over the dead - conversely, God says He gives His glory to no one, especially the glory His power to resurrect brings Him.

That's how we know "Samuel" wasn't resurrected by the witch or God.

• because satan has no power over death and if God raised him, His glory would've gone to the witch...
• because "the dead know not anything"...
• because the dead "have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun"...

Yes, the Bible called it "Samuel"...because it took the form of Samuel.

I'm not saying that Samuel's appearing was his resurrection. I'm saying that if he was "immediately" (from our form of thinking) resurrected and glorified upon his death, then God made fools of both the witch and Saul, and had Samuel appear for God's own purposes. I see nothing in the story to indicate that the devil got or even hoped to get anything out of it.

As for your other "that's how we know" points, the argument is circular.

 

[Phoneman-777]

I'm not saying that Samuel's appearing was his resurrection.

Then you have to agree that wasn't Samuel, because that's the only way "Samuel" could actually be Samuel.

I'm saying that if he was "immediately" (from our form of thinking) resurrected and glorified upon his death, then God made fools of both the witch and Saul, and had Samuel appear for God's own purposes.

God says He does not share His glory - especially the glory His power to resurrect brings Him - with Satan and his witches.

I see nothing in the story to indicate that the devil got or even hoped to get anything out of it.

The devil wants to "be like the Most High" - what better way to appear as such by resurrecting/conjuring "Samuel" via a demonic deception?

"that's how we know" points, the argument is circular.

I'm merely reminding us that only by "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little" is the rigorous standard by which every spiritual proposition must be tested.

We can't throw out multiple lines way over there which contradict a presumed precept over here.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Then you have to agree that wasn't Samuel, because that's the only way "Samuel" could actually be Samuel.

No. Samuel's resurrection, if it occurred 'prior to' and independent of this appearance, has nothing to do with this, rather obviously.

God says He does not share His glory - especially the glory His power to resurrect brings Him - with Satan and his witches.

This is getting ridiculous. Where is Satan's or the witch's glory here? The fact you see them as getting glory out of this, should it actually BE Samuel, has nothing to do with the reality of what actually happened there. The witch was very much out of sorts by what happened, and had not expected it. And God's purposes were accomplished, unlike the devil's. Your logic is way off.

The devil wants to "be like the Most High" - what better way to appear as such by resurrecting/conjuring "Samuel" via a demonic deception?

Your speculation is not even addressed in the text, nor in any in-scripture commentary on the event, that I am aware of.

I'm merely reminding us that only by "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little" is the rigorous standard by which every spiritual proposition must be tested.

You may not be aware that what you quote there, "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little", is contextually an extremely derogatory commentary on the eisegetical way the spiritual leaders had been building their doctrine. Isaiah 28 even begins with "Woe to them..."

We can't throw out multiple lines way over there which contradict a presumed precept over here.

We certainly can, and must, if the presumed 'precept over here' is wrong. The conflict in our mind does not present a true conflict in Scripture.