The Fall of the West (It's Happening Now)

Whyayeman

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Uh-huh. And we know there was no manipulation because we were told so by....the people who did the manipulating. Gotcha. ^_^
No. We were told there was manipulation. Over and over again. Some people believe it. I don't know of any manipulation and nor do you. You might have an opinion on the matter; if so it is up to you justify that opinion with some verifiable facts.

On Christian Forums we are expected to cite evidence for assertions. Nobody has done so for this particular assertion. Maybe you have some actual evidence, not just the old and discredited allegations of Trump and his lawyers.
 
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Nithavela

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Uh-huh. And we know there was no manipulation because we were told so by....the people who did the manipulating. Gotcha. ^_^
And you "know" that there was manipulation because you were told by other people. Just without any evidence, but you agree with those people, so you decide to believe them.
 
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Wolseley

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And you "know" that there was manipulation because you were told by other people. Just without any evidence, but you agree with those people, so you decide to believe them.
Which merely underscores the fact that we are two groups of people living in the same space, but that's all we have in common. The two groups not only have completely different political views, but completely different moral and ethical standards, scientific conclusions, social practices, economic viewpoints, interpretations of history, even completely different ideas of the nature and fabric of reality.

They have absolutely nothing in common, these two Americas. They are utterly polarized from each other, and there is no hope of reconciliation. The best course would be for the two groups to split; each take part of the country, and separate from one another. The only question is, will it be done equitably and agreeably, or will it be done like it was attempted the last time, with bloodshed all 'round?
 
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Nithavela

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Which merely underscores the fact that we are two groups of people living in the same space, but that's all we have in common. The two groups not only have completely different political views, but completely different moral and ethical standards, scientific conclusions, social practices, economic viewpoints, interpretations of history, even completely different ideas of the nature and fabric of reality.

They have absolutely nothing in common, these two Americas. They are utterly polarized from each other, and there is no hope of reconciliation. The best course would be for the two groups to split; each take part of the country, and separate from one another. The only question is, will it be done equitably and agreeably, or will it be done like it was attempted the last time, with bloodshed all 'round?
I vote for bloodshed all 'round. Otherwise, what's the point of keeping all those confederate war flags?
 
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Wolseley

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No. We were told there was manipulation. Over and over again. Some people believe it. I don't know of any manipulation and nor do you. You might have an opinion on the matter; if so it is up to you justify that opinion with some verifiable facts.

On Christian Forums we are expected to cite evidence for assertions. Nobody has done so for this particular assertion. Maybe you have some actual evidence, not just the old and discredited allegations of Trump and his lawyers.
You're right. We should set up a commission to study this issue and get to the bottom of it, provide absolute, rock-solid proof that something did happen. We could put Nancy Pelosi in an oversight capacity, involve the FBI, have the investigation headed by Adam Schiff, and make sure the news media keeps the public informed on all aspects of the case, both pro and con. That'll bring out the evidence, and eventually, the truth, by golly. You want proof? This is the way to get it!

Oh, wait....... :scratch: ^_^
 
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Wolseley

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I vote for bloodshed all 'round. Otherwise, what's the point of keeping all those confederate war flags?
Well spoken! :) I agree---let's get it done.

Listen up, people: all personnel will form one line to the left of the issuing booth, and draw your weapons at the same. Ammunition and additional gear will be dispensed at the next station. Please ensure that your weapon is free of all cosmoline and obstructions before attempting to fire.

You are reminded that as of 1400, the immediate vicinity outside the weapons-issue area is a free-fire zone; non-combatants are strongly urged to secure from the area of operations before the commencement of hostilities.

For the rest of you, be advised that this conflict will determine whether it's going to be our America, or their America. Due to the apparent rules of engagement established by our enemies, no quarter will be asked, or given; terminate all members of the opposing force with extreme prejudice. Good luck, and good hunting.
 
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BNR32FAN

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It is my understanding that the ideologies that both the Greeks and the Romans adopted led to the demise of these once-global powers from the west.

Things like adopting Homosexuality, a loss of national identity, and generally an attack on family values led to the demise of these once powerful entities.

That is exactly what is happening in the west today. A society cannot continue to function when family values (Read: Judeo-Christian values) are eroded from the culture.

In fact, even though we have a global economy which means it is harder for the west to fall, nonetheless, we may be more immoral in the US than in any other culture in history. We have mass shootings, abortion, an LGBTQ+ agenda, a decline of Christianity, and only about 6% of people in the US hold a Biblical worldview (which drops to 2% for Gen Z). While you could make the case that other nations around the world are more unchristian (Japan, for example, where there are only 1% of Christians in the population including cults and anything even resembling Christianity), I say what I say due to such a rapid drop away from Christianity in the US. It is how fast we are declining that I say this. We are entering a state of spiritual blindness in the US.

I believe most of the fault for this falls on Millennials (of which I am a part). I know people close to me who say, "I am thankful for deconstruction," Etc.

It's time for millennials to make the change we need to make as a society. This can only be done by God. The US is in a very sad state. Liberalism is rampant. Philosophers are knowingly trying to change the definition of words (such as questions of gender). If you are a Christian, you must speak out against the secular society, get on your knees and pray for revival. God can change this country, but He's the only one who can.
I think this is all happening as prophesied in the Bible and it will only continue to get worse as we get closer to Christ’s return.
 
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Nithavela

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Well spoken! :) I agree---let's get it done.

Listen up, people: all personnel will form one line to the left of the issuing booth, and draw your weapons at the same. Ammunition and additional gear will be dispensed at the next station. Please ensure that your weapon is free of all cosmoline and obstructions before attempting to fire.

You are reminded that as of 1400, the immediate vicinity outside the weapons-issue area is a free-fire zone; non-combatants are strongly urged to secure from the area of operations before the commencement of hostilities.

For the rest of you, be advised that this conflict will determine whether it's going to be our America, or their America. Due to the apparent rules of engagement established by our enemies, no quarter will be asked, or given; terminate all members of the opposing force with extreme prejudice. Good luck, and good hunting.
I don't think there are going to be non-combatants. Only victims once the fighting has stopped.

With any luck, there won't be anyone left or right.
 
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Whyayeman

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You're right. We should set up a commission to study this issue and get to the bottom of it, provide absolute, rock-solid proof that something did happen. We could put Nancy Pelosi in an oversight capacity, involve the FBI, have the investigation headed by Adam Schiff, and make sure the news media keeps the public informed on all aspects of the case, both pro and con. That'll bring out the evidence, and eventually, the truth, by golly. You want proof? This is the way to get it!

Oh, wait....... :scratch: ^_^
There is abundant testimony already. Every count in every county anfd every state in America has been signed off as accurate by hundreds - thousands, probably, of Americans. They have declared that the ballots were properly counted. These were elected representatives of Republican and Democratic Parties as well as nominated members of the public. Every legislature in the country then declared the results.

That is evidence that the election was properly conducted and the result trustworthy. If you are looking for evidence to the contrary you could start by investigating the integrity of those men and women because these are the people whose honesty is put into question by the allegations of manipulation.

None of the election deniers have bothered with anything like that because all of them know there is nothing to find.
 
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comana

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Which merely underscores the fact that we are two groups of people living in the same space, but that's all we have in common. The two groups not only have completely different political views, but completely different moral and ethical standards, scientific conclusions, social practices, economic viewpoints, interpretations of history, even completely different ideas of the nature and fabric of reality.

They have absolutely nothing in common, these two Americas. They are utterly polarized from each other, and there is no hope of reconciliation. The best course would be for the two groups to split; each take part of the country, and separate from one another. The only question is, will it be done equitably and agreeably, or will it be done like it was attempted the last time, with bloodshed all 'round?
Only if you thing every American falls to one of the extremes. Reality is that more are closer to the middle than the extremes and not all that far apart.
 
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Louise15

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It is my understanding that the ideologies that both the Greeks and the Romans adopted led to the demise of these once-global powers from the west.

Things like adopting Homosexuality, a loss of national identity, and generally an attack on family values led to the demise of these once powerful entities.

That is exactly what is happening in the west today. A society cannot continue to function when family values (Read: Judeo-Christian values) are eroded from the culture.

In fact, even though we have a global economy which means it is harder for the west to fall, nonetheless, we may be more immoral in the US than in any other culture in history. We have mass shootings, abortion, an LGBTQ+ agenda, a decline of Christianity, and only about 6% of people in the US hold a Biblical worldview (which drops to 2% for Gen Z). While you could make the case that other nations around the world are more unchristian (Japan, for example, where there are only 1% of Christians in the population including cults and anything even resembling Christianity), I say what I say due to such a rapid drop away from Christianity in the US. It is how fast we are declining that I say this. We are entering a state of spiritual blindness in the US.

I believe most of the fault for this falls on Millennials (of which I am a part). I know people close to me who say, "I am thankful for deconstruction," Etc.

It's time for millennials to make the change we need to make as a society. This can only be done by God. The US is in a very sad state. Liberalism is rampant. Philosophers are knowingly trying to change the definition of words (such as questions of gender). If you are a Christian, you must speak out against the secular society, get on your knees and pray for revival. God can change this country, but He's the only one who can.
Yes you're right. it's the same here in the UK where I live.
 
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timothyu

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. it's the same here in the UK where I live.
It is the same in any country where their leaders take direction from the WEF. Globalization which is another word for Centralization, first needs to eliminate nationality to a point they become states of a global nation rather than individual powers. So far so good.
 
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FireDragon76

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Oh boy, another "the sky is falling" thread. These are never based on completely bonkers ideas...

First off, when I read things like "Only 6% hold to a Biblical worldview", I immediately get suspicious that whoever is claiming that has in mind only their own very narrow idea of what that means that probably only includes whatever Protestant sect they're a part of, to the exclusion of the vast numbers of other Christians around the Western world who might not be Biblical literalists or believers in Biblical inerrancy, but in all other ways (e.g., adherence to the Nicean Creed, which is this very website's statement of faith) are just as Christian as the 6% who apparently meet the OP's definition of holding a "Biblical worldview".

Secondly, there seems to be a mix-up of sorts going on here as a result of trying too hard to map the conditions of Ancient Rome onto our modern geopolitical world. To say that Rome or Greece or wherever fell due to this or that kind of political decadence and cultural ennui is one thing; to say that this was due to a lack of "national identity" is really anachronistic and weird. As any amount of forethought on this matter would remind a person, the Greco-Roman empire (Rome in the West, Byzantium in the East) was just that: an empire. As such, the formation of distinct national identities was itself more of a sign of the empire's decline than the absence of them ever could be. Again, think about it: The Ottoman Empire ruled over a very large and diverse population, just as the later Russian and British empires would likewise rule. And how did each of these end? With the rise of modern nationalism: the liberation of the Greeks, the Balkans, the Armenians, and so on in the case of the Ottoman Empire; the formation of the Russian republic in the case of the Russian Empire (soon to be transformed into the largest constituent nation of the USSR), and the formation of any number of national entities out of former British colonial possessions in the case of the British Empire (India, Iraq, Sudan, etc.). The modern concept of nationalism or the nation-state is strikingly new. When my own grandfather was born in 1911, there was arguably only one independent state in all of Africa (Ethiopia), the Austro-Hungarian Empire was still a thing, Iceland was still a dependency of Denmark, the USA still ruled the Philippines (as they would until 1946), etc. The world looked pretty different than how it does now, and that was just over a century ago. I would be willing to grant that people still had what we could think of as "national identities" a long time ago, but these were not expressed via a kind of 'supra-tribal' mentality like they would be in a modern country like the USA, where what binds people together is being 'American'. Rather, it seems obvious that the Jews of the past just like the Jews of today knew that they were Jews, as is usually also the case with regard to other groups like Armenians or Assyrians (and here I only write 'usually' because there are perhaps a great number who are Arabized/Turkified/Kurdified, and hence disconnected from their true origins), but lacking as they did during most times a suitably unoccupied homeland to call their own, these were ethnolinguistic and/or ethnoreligious designations, not modern 'nationalisms'. In other words, you were a Jew if you were raised in the religion of Judaism, had some familiarity with a distinctly Jewish language or dialect (e.g., Hebrew, Judaeo-Aramaic, Ladino/Judaeo-Spanish, Judaeo-Persian, etc.), and most importantly, if your mother was a Jew (as that is how Jewish identity is conferred as a matter of law). This is all very different than the modern western conception of "national identity". No one says "sorry, but you only get to be Australian or Polish (or whatever) if you're an English or Polish-speaking Christian".

The argument presented in the OP seems to rest upon very weak grounds. I'm not even going to touch any of the stuff about homosexuality (another strikingly modern idea, depending on how exactly it is understood) or which generation is to blame for whatever (here's a hint, though: mainline Protestant Christianity had stopped being the dominant flavor of Christianity in the USA by the mid-1980s, when even the oldest Millennials like me were still in single digits; now tell me, please: has the state of public acceptance or profession of Christianity in the USA gotten better or worse in the years since then? Hmmm...). That's all ridiculous 'culture war' nonsense that I have absolutely no time for.

Good point. Rome didn't rule by ideologies like nationalism. Sheer brute force worked well enough. Nationalism typically requires things like universal education, literacy, and mass media. None of which existed in Rome.
 
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timothyu

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None of which existed in Rome.
Yeah but Rome and it's army relied heavily on its spys an so are many nationalistic countries today... right Siri? They know everything digital about each of us. How long before the nations melt into one big 'cloud' of centralized authority
 
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timothyu

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What I think is important is that the church doesn't crumble away with it.
what would you calla church that gave it's blessing to world government last year or a series of religions that rewrote the 10 commandment to be about the environment recently..
 
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Hans Blaster

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what would you calla church that gave it's blessing to world government last year or a series of religions that rewrote the 10 commandment to be about the environment recently..

A church that blesses world government. Who'd a thunk it? Sounds like the usual thing for Holy Mother Church.
 
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Ceallaigh

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what would you calla church that gave it's blessing to world government last year or a series of religions that rewrote the 10 commandment to be about the environment recently..
Am I supposed to know what you're talking about?

If you're talking about someone coming up with a ten commandments of something like the environment or car repair or dog grooming, that's hardly actually rewriting God's ten commandments.

As for the other do you mean something like "God Bless America"?
 
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timothyu

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If you're talking about someone coming up with a ten commandments of something like the environment or car repair or dog grooming, that's hardly actually rewriting God's ten commandments.
Then why make a big thing out of it by going to Mt Sinai to do it?
 
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