A troublesome verse for the Calvinist

[d taylor]

Hi d,
Good verses.
Did you notice that they're in the present tense?
We must CONTINUE to believe in order to be saved.
We must have faith in order to be saved.

If we believe, trust, honor, obey, (which is what believe means) then we will be saved.
If we HAVE faith, we will be saved.

If we abandon our faith, we will not be saved.

Must leave.
Will post a few verses that come to mind...
I don't know why this has to be debated...
Don't we Christians WANT to obey God?

1 Timothy 4:1 In later times some will DEPART FROM THE FAITH.
Revelation 2:4 You have abandoned your first love...abandoned.
Romans 11:19-22 It is possible for God to break off branches, but much kindness toward us PROVIDED we continue in His kindness.
Colossians 1:23 We are reconciled to God IF WE CONTINUE in our faith.

many more...
-night

Is “Continuous” Believing Required for the New Birth? – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

What Does It Mean to Believe in Jesus? – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

 

[John Mullally]

You haven't ever considered what Paul said in 1 Co 1:20-30, 1 Co 2:1-5?

Those verses only mean that the Gospel message is commonly rejected by those who are considered wise in this world. We see that today. It does not mean that man's will is not an important factor.

Have you ever considered the plain text in 1 Timothy 2:4? Not only is God not a respector of persons per the OP, but He also desires all men to be saved! Additionally, God gave his son a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6), not a select few. The fact that all are not saved, does not indicate that God is impotent - it indicates that men choose whether or not they receive from God - which Jesus states in Mark 16:16 as only those who believe are saved!

Your error is that you believe all men's destiny is in the hands of God, whereas Jesus puts the onus on men (again Mark 16:16). God who demands faith will not make anyone believe as men are made in the image of God - not as vacuous Calvinist puppets (remember Calvin clearly states our every action was decreed by God before hand - thus declaring men to be puppets)! Jesus stirred people (those coming for healing and His disciples) to use their faith constantly - there would be need for that if it was a matter of God deciding who would and would not believe. Paul says that faith comes from hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17) - thus Paul puts the onus on men - no one is forcing men to pay attention to God's word.

1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.​

 

[Clare73]

Those verses only mean that the Gospel message is commonly rejected by those who are considered wise in this world.

And 1 Co 2:1-5?

 

[John Mullally]

And 1 Co 2:1-5?

Curt as usual. What about 1 Corinthians 2:1-5? This is a Theological forum - so put an effort to bring it. Per scripture, God commonly uses curt rebukes, but you are not at that level - so stop presuming such!

As usual, you frequently bring up scriptures without sufficiently detailed explanation as how it applies to your arguement. And then you ask others to address the scripture you referenced without understanding how it fits into your argurment. I have played into your game a number of times - but then you come back with a disrespectful curt response like "Strawman" (post 2601 on the "How to be a Calvinist in 5 easy steps thread) you gave me to to my thorough argument (in post 2600 of that thread).

I am not going to play your guessing game here. You post thousands of times in support of Calvinist positions (even commonly using odd terms introduced by John Calvin), take up his most extreme positions, and then state you are not a Calvinist - what is with that? Do you think you are doing God's work by peddling Calvinism, while stating you are not a Calvinist?

 

[Clare73]

Curt as usual. What about 1 Corinthians 2:1-5? This is a Theological forum - so put an effort to bring it. Per scripture, God commonly uses curt rebukes, but you are not at that level - so stop presuming such!

As usual, you frequently bring up scriptures without sufficiently detailed explanation as how it applies to your arguement. And then you ask others to address the scripture you referenced without understanding how it fits into your argurment.

Methinks that as usual, you don't even know what the argument is. . .so of course the Scripture has no bearing for you.

 

[John Mullally]

Methinks that as usual, you don't even know what the argument is. . .so of course the Scripture has no bearing for you.

Methinks as usual you have presented scripture without an argument. I am not a mind reader. Do you know how to present an argument? Posting scripture without sufficient supporting argumentation presents a guessing game to any who would answer.

In times past, being a Calvinist, you have presented God in a slanderous manner - as Calvin states that God predestines many to eternal torment in order to receive glory to himself. No God is love (1 John 4:16) who desires all men be saved (1 Timothy 2:4) and is not aligned with satan as Calvin's slander suggests (2 Corinthians 4:4).

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

​

2 Corinthians 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.​

 

[Clare73]

Methinks as usual you have not presented scripture without an argument. I am not a mind reader. Do you know how to present an argument? Posting scripture without sufficient supporting argumentation presents a guessing game to any who would answer.

I note that you do not state the topic under discussion.

 

[John Mullally]

I note that you do not state the topic under discussion.

The topic under discussion is the scripture you brought up without an argument: 1 Corinthians 2:1-5 (Post 183). Is anyone home?

 

[Clare73]

The topic under discussion is the scripture you brought up without an argument: 1 Corinthians 2:1-5. Is anyone home?
Methinks you don't understand what you are saying.

No, that is the response to the topic. . .that is not the topic.

Who doesn't understand?

 

[John Mullally]

No, that is the response to the topic. . .that is not the topic.

Who doesn't understand?

No need to lecture on understanding - as in arrogance you do not explain yourself. You commonly present scripture without explanation. We are not mind readers. Our inability to discern what you think you are presenting is a deficit on your part. Try to be understandable.

The main topic is from the OP. Even it the scripture relates to the OP topic, there is no explanation of how it relates. I realize thise discussions go off the OP topic into side-topics Based upon your posts one could guess you are addressing post 160 - which is not a gppd fit. Again, that is my guess - when you introduce scripture without argumenation, who knows what topic you are addressing. And again I am not going to play your guessing game! Try to be coherent for a change!

I find it difficult to follow you - and the problem is not on my side. Try to present a coherent argument before adding scriptural support. Also try to be transparent - as you are a Calvinist, but deny such! Did I just hear a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow?

 

[Clare73]

No need to lecture on understanding - as you are short on explanation.

The main topic is from the OP which you do not address. I realize thise discussions go off the OP topic into side-topics Based upon your posts you are addressing post 160 -

Not quite. . .so you responded to the post without knowing that the topic was post #171.

Your inability to understand my posts is not about me.

 

[John Mullally]

I'll save him some time and offer a little here. . .

Did you choose to be born again?

Yes, I chose based upon the promise from Jesus in Mark 16:16. Its called being a believer and taking God at His word. As opposed to Calvinist naval gazing based upon feelings - do you feel saved - in other words should you listen more to the devil? God is for all men being saved (1 Timothy 2:4) - the fact that does not happen points to man's exercise of his free will!

Jesus commonly commended those who exercised faith, which is based upon believing God's word. Wake up and believe the Gospel!

 

[Clare73]

Yes, I chose based upon the promise from Jesus in Mark 16:16. Its called being a believer and taking God at His word. As opposed to Calvinist naval gazing based upon feelings - do you feel saved - in other words should you listen more to the devil?

Jesus commonly commended those who exercised faith, which is based upon believing God's word. Wake up and believe the Gospel!

You chose to be born again as much as you chose to be born the first time. (Jn 3:3-8)

 

[Vanellus]

Yes, I chose based upon the promise from Jesus in Mark 16:16. Its called being a believer and taking God at His word. As opposed to Calvinist naval gazing based upon feelings - do you feel saved - in other words should you listen more to the devil?

Jesus commonly commended those who exercised faith, which is based upon believing God's word. Wake up and believe the Gospel!

"naval" or "navel"? That one letter changes the meaning significantly.

 

[John Mullally]

"naval" or "navel"? That one letter changes the meaning significantly.

Yes. I award you a point for catching the typo. Ha, Ha.

 

[John Mullally]

You chose to be born again as much as you chose to be born the first time. (Jn 3:3-8)

Does this response indcate you choose to dismiss Jesus in Mark 16:16 as per your Calvinism you take this fatalistic view? Take Jesus at His word, believe the Gospel, and receive salvation! Remember, faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17) - it is something you can choose to do. You don't get faith by reading Calvin's diatribe.

John 3:3-8 does not address whether man has any influence in being "born again". It says that the Holy Spirit is the initiator. - but per Acts 7:51 many resist the Holy Spirit. If man has no input, how can he resist the Holy Spirit?

 

[Clare73]

Does this response indcate you choose to dismiss Jesus in Mark 16:16 as per your Calvinism you take this fatalistic view?

Mk 16:16 does not contradict Jn 3:3-8.

 

[John Mullally]

Mk 16:16 does not contradict Jn 3:3-8.

Again curt as usual.

Try to make an intelligible argument that can be disputed instead of playing guessing games where you throw out naked scripture and coimments. And then when someone answers you cry foul because they are arguing against points you did not make or to which you cannot defend - when in fact you made no intelligible point.

What makes you think that I am saying that Mark 16:16 contradicts John 3:3-8? Spit it out! I will not play your guessing games. Remember when you quoted John 3:3-8 you did not go into detail on the point you were trying to make.

You have posted thousands of times on this forum in favor of Calvinism - but you act like you have not learned anythinng from that experience - as you commonly will not succinctly present an argument. Maybe that comes from recognising you are unable to win straight-up arguments with non-Calvinist Christians (as scripture is against you), so you play your guessing games.

 

[Vanellus]

Yes. I award you a point for catching the typo. Ha, Ha.

No I don't know what those terms mean!

 

[John Mullally]

No I don't know what those terms mean!