Modern day systemic racism, does it exist?

[Astrid]

Not being equally administered IS the Eurocentric system.

Nah. It's the Chinese system.
Or the Russian or Indian or Brazilian.
Depends where you are.

 

[Astrid]

This view on systemic racism, or what is sometimes referred to as structural racism, has been recognized for over 30 years. Maybe that’s recent for you, but that’s as long as many people can remember. This assertion that it doesn’t exist or can be entirely reduced to cultural differences (which themselves cannot be traced back to any form of racist policy in the past) isn’t evidence-based.

Fascinating. It’s like you are physically incapable of processing what I’m telling you. Just read it again, maybe?


It’s not an assumption, it’s an observation that a bunch of you have a really hard time grasping for some reason.

I can grasp things pretty well if there is something
there to grasp. In that Im noI so all alone.

I encountered some racism in the USA.
I have encountered it in Japan, Philippines, France...
Dunno if it was " systemic'.

But I know of no " systemic" racism in the USA.

It is blatantly obvious here.

Can you give me one good example please of it in
the USA?

 

[iluvatar5150]

That's extremely rare....given the nature of the work they do.

What, exactly, is the nature of the work they do? This 1/2500 figure is supposedly the rate of complaints out of all police-civilian contacts. But what is the makeup of those contacts? IOW, what percentage are traffic citations? What percentage are questioning of witnesses? What percentage are them standing guard at a football game? What percentage are responding to calls for help? What percentage are interactions with suspects? What percentage of their contacts would even warrant them being in a situation where a brutality complaint could even be conceivable?

Walmart sells garbage...it's not a business that uses force in high pressure situations.

Also, we're talking about complaints...not convictions.

Does each and every Walmart store receive 9 complaints a week?



Again, this is a poor analogy. Do US airlines get 1000 complaints a day?

Not only are those not poor analogies, but I think you make my case for me.

I don't know the number of general complaints levied against Walmart or airlines, but I would not be surprised at all if they hit those kinds of numbers. I don't know anybody who would consider it "rare" to have a poor experience at either Walmart or on an airplane. IME, patronizing either one is typically miserable and I go into it expecting as much.

If complaint rates got that high in those industries, we'd consider that experience to be normal, not rare.

Again, poor analogy....



No...extremely rare would be the correct description. For example....

Redirect Notice

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

As you can see...you have far bigger problems with teachers and school staff in schools than you do with police. Yet somehow, people are more than willing to trust these people with sexualizing their children starting in kindergarten.

You understand what the big difference is here....right? Police need to use force frequently during an arrest....as they're assaulted tens of thousands of times a year. Teachers never need to sexually abuse, harass, or assault a student....it's not part of their job.

If you had your priorities straight...you'd be demanding body cameras on the teachers and in the classrooms.

Is it far bigger?

The earlier post said that there are 56 million police interactions per year, yielding 26,000 brutality complaints for a ratio of 1 complaint per 25,000 interactions.

There are roughly 50 million public school students in the US. I don't know how many "interactions" they have with different school adults each day, but between teachers, administrators, bus drivers, etc. 5 strikes me as very conservative and 10 seems pretty likely. So that puts us at 250-500 million interactions per school day * 180 school days per year = 45-90 billion student-adult interactions per year.

Your Politico article said there were ~15,000 assaults per year. That's 1 out of 3-6 million interactions.

The NBC article said that 1/10 kids would experience something inappropriate over the course of their 13 years in school. 5-10 interactions per day * 180 days / yr * 13 years = 11,700 - 23,400 interactions per student. If 10% of students experience something, that would put the incident rate between 1 in 117,000 and 1 in 234,000.

Obviously, none are acceptable. But the rates appear to be orders of magnitude off from police complaints.

 

[gaara4158]

I can grasp things pretty well if there is something
there to grasp. In that Im noI so all alone.

I encountered some racism in the USA.
I have encountered it in Japan, Philippines, France...
Dunno if it was " systemic'.

But I know of no " systemic" racism in the USA.

It is blatantly obvious here.

Can you give me one good example please of it in
the USA?

In the USA, public schools are largely funded by local property taxes. As a result, the public schools in rich areas tend to attract the best teachers as well as have the best after-school college prep and extracurricular programs due to their higher available funding. Conversely, the poor areas tend to have the lowest-rated teachers and programs due to lack of funding. While this is unambiguously systemic classism, it’s also an example of systemic racism because the class divide splits heavily along racial lines due to racially discriminatory practices in the past. Black people who trace their ancestry back to slavery inherit far fewer educational opportunities than their counterparts of other races, even new African immigrants, directly due to the way public infrastructure was funded in the past and is today.

Native Americans were massacred and exterminated for their land so effectively that it inspired Hitler (yes, there it is, Godwin). Natives continue to suffer from the holocaust and apartheid imposed upon them, solely based on their race.

Systemic racism also affects health outcomes, as outlined in the article below:

https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2021.01394

 

[Astrid]

I'm aware of American history, probably far more
so than a large majority of americans.
Just mentioning so you could save words on that.

A legacy of racism, by both races v the othrr in
the USA is Chinatowns, chinese restaurants,
and, overachievement on the part of the
Chinese in America.

Obviously, past affects the present. True for
all groups / races. In all places.
Everybody gets inon racial / clan, us v them
to some extent.

True, no?

Thing is for " us" ( Chinese, in this case
Jews are another ) we are not racist
against ourselves.
Your lowest achievers in the USA, hillbillies,
ghetto blacks, rez Indians, are their own
worst enemies, it'sTHEIR "system" of
anti self racism now that holds them down.

Yes, ghettos and the rez are products of
past racism.
But who perpetuates them?

I can see " systemic racism" in things
built in and officially / tacitly accepted
by the dominant group,. We have some of thar
here.

If thrre is discrimination in hiring, housing,
access to education,etc, well, that is
SYSTEMIC. sure enough.

Now. Is there such in the USA?
What anyone can or cannot do because
of race / because some system is in the way?

 

[RDKirk]

This view on systemic racism, or what is sometimes referred to as structural racism, has been recognized for over 30 years. Maybe that’s recent for you, but that’s as long as many people can remember. This assertion that it doesn’t exist or can be entirely reduced to cultural differences (which themselves cannot be traced back to any form of racist policy in the past) isn’t evidence-based.

No. The definition of "systemic" or even "structural" racism specifically as inequal outcomes is very recent.

 

[rturner76]

I'm sure Nikki Barns, Frank Lucas, and Bumpy Johnson will disagree with you on that one.

They were local

 

[Astrid]

No. The definition of "systemic" or even "structural" racism specifically as inequal outcomes is very recent.

Is there a vaccine for woke self righteous
white guilt and self loathing industrial
complex?

 

[rjs330]

It’s not an assumption, it’s an observation that a bunch of you have a really hard time grasping for some reason.

You are assuming. You are looking at a situation and are assuming it is systemic racism. It's a very myopic view. You are looking at the situation through the lense of systemic racism that youve been told exists. And you believe it. What you see is confirmation bias because you expected to see it. You have black people here telling you what is going on and you are ignoring it in favor of your own bias.

Your observations are quite obviously inaccurate.

 

[rjs330]

What, exactly, is the nature of the work they do? This 1/2500 figure is supposedly the rate of complaints out of all police-civilian contacts. But what is the makeup of those contacts? IOW, what percentage are traffic citations? What percentage are questioning of witnesses? What percentage are them standing guard at a football game? What percentage are responding to calls for help? What percentage are interactions with suspects? What percentage of their contacts would even warrant them being in a situation where a brutality complaint could even be conceivable?





Not only are those not poor analogies, but I think you make my case for me.

I don't know the number of general complaints levied against Walmart or airlines, but I would not be surprised at all if they hit those kinds of numbers. I don't know anybody who would consider it "rare" to have a poor experience at either Walmart or on an airplane. IME, patronizing either one is typically miserable and I go into it expecting as much.

If complaint rates got that high in those industries, we'd consider that experience to be normal, not rare.


Is it far bigger?

The earlier post said that there are 56 million police interactions per year, yielding 26,000 brutality complaints for a ratio of 1 complaint per 25,000 interactions.

There are roughly 50 million public school students in the US. I don't know how many "interactions" they have with different school adults each day, but between teachers, administrators, bus drivers, etc. 5 strikes me as very conservative and 10 seems pretty likely. So that puts us at 250-500 million interactions per school day * 180 school days per year = 45-90 billion student-adult interactions per year.

Your Politico article said there were ~15,000 assaults per year. That's 1 out of 3-6 million interactions.

The NBC article said that 1/10 kids would experience something inappropriate over the course of their 13 years in school. 5-10 interactions per day * 180 days / yr * 13 years = 11,700 - 23,400 interactions per student. If 10% of students experience something, that would put the incident rate between 1 in 117,000 and 1 in 234,000.

Obviously, none are acceptable. But the rates appear to be orders of magnitude off from police complaints.

But there are 10% rates of police excessive force. Police excessive force issues are far far less than issues of doctor malpractice and harming of patients.

And none of the professions you mentioned do ANYTHING remotely like cops do as a line of work.

Teachers aren't having to restrain themselves while physically fighting or being threatened by students. No they are just molesting them.

Doctors are screwing up their patients due the the patient fighting them physically or running from them and resisting them, threatening them with knives or guns.

I would say that cops are far more professional in dealing with terrible people than the vast majority of people would be in the same circumstances.

I would love it if people like you did their jobs and worked in these areas and did what they do for a few years before spouting off the nonsense you do.

Because why they do and deal with, the .004%. Is actually quite remarkable.

 

[Ana the Ist]

This view on systemic racism, or what is sometimes referred to as structural racism, has been recognized for over 30 years.

Recognized but unpopular since it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. There's a reason no one debates the validity of "systemic racism" and it's the same reason you have me on "ignore".

It's only recently become popular for purely political reasons.

Maybe that’s recent for you, but that’s as long as many people can remember. This assertion that it doesn’t exist or can be entirely reduced to cultural differences (which themselves cannot be traced back to any form of racist policy in the past) isn’t evidence-based.

Systemic racism isn't evidence based....it's circular reasoning.

"Why does this racial disparity exist?"
"Systemic racism."
"What is Systemic racism?"
"Systemic racism is the existence of a racial disparity."

There's no evidence there....just a circle of logic lol. The idea that you're calling out people for a lack of evidence is laughable.

It’s not an assumption, it’s an observation that a bunch of you have a really hard time grasping for some reason.

I'm pretty sure I haven't failed to understand this concept at all.

 

[Astrid]

Recognized but unpopular since it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. There's a reason no one debates the validity of "systemic racism" and it's the same reason you have me on "ignore".

It's only recently become popular for purely political reasons.



Systemic racism isn't evidence based....it's circular reasoning.

"Why does this racial disparity exist?"
"Systemic racism."
"What is Systemic racism?"
"Systemic racism is the existence of a racial disparity."

There's no evidence there....just a circle of logic lol. The idea that you're calling out people for a lack of evidence is laughable.




I'm pretty sure I haven't failed to understand this concept at all.

Yep

 

[Astrid]

You are assuming. You are looking at a situation and are assuming it is systemic racism. It's a very myopic view. You are looking at the situation through the lense of systemic racism that youve been told exists. And you believe it. What you see is confirmation bias because you expected to see it. You have black people here telling you what is going on and you are ignoring it in favor of your own bias.

Your observations are quite obviously inaccurate.

Quite obviously

 

[gaara4158]

I'm aware of American history, probably far more
so than a large majority of americans.
Just mentioning so you could save words on that.

A legacy of racism, by both races v the othrr in
the USA is Chinatowns, chinese restaurants,
and, overachievement on the part of the
Chinese in America.

Obviously, past affects the present. True for
all groups / races. In all places.
Everybody gets inon racial / clan, us v them
to some extent.

True, no?

Thing is for " us" ( Chinese, in this case
Jews are another ) we are not racist
against ourselves.
Your lowest achievers in the USA, hillbillies,
ghetto blacks, rez Indians, are their own
worst enemies, it'sTHEIR "system" of
anti self racism now that holds them down.

Yes, ghettos and the rez are products of
past racism.
But who perpetuates them?

I can see " systemic racism" in things
built in and officially / tacitly accepted
by the dominant group,. We have some of thar
here.

If thrre is discrimination in hiring, housing,
access to education,etc, well, that is
SYSTEMIC. sure enough.

Now. Is there such in the USA?
What anyone can or cannot do because
of race / because some system is in the way?

The lack of social mobility in the US is what perpetuates cultural ghettos and reservations.

You are assuming. You are looking at a situation and are assuming it is systemic racism. It's a very myopic view. You are looking at the situation through the lense of systemic racism that youve been told exists. And you believe it. What you see is confirmation bias because you expected to see it. You have black people here telling you what is going on and you are ignoring it in favor of your own bias.

Your observations are quite obviously inaccurate.

Hmm… no, that’s not it. I’m assessing data and applying appropriate characterizations to their implications. What you do with the same data is your own business, but it’s also your funeral.

 

[gaara4158]

Is there a vaccine for woke self righteous
white guilt and self loathing industrial
complex?

It’s disappointing that you skew reactionary given your rejection of religious fundamentalism.

 

[Bradskii]

I know exactly what your telling me, your telling me that any situation that effects any particular race disproportionately is systematic racism which is not the definition of the term.

Change 'disproportionally' to 'negatively' and I think you're pretty close.

 

[gaara4158]

No. The definition of "systemic" or even "structural" racism specifically as inequal outcomes is very recent.

Source: trust me bro.

 

[Bradskii]

No. The definition of "systemic" or even "structural" racism specifically as inequal outcomes is very recent.

You could have easily checked. From wiki: 'The term institutional racism was first coined in 1967 by Stokely Carmichael and Charles V. Hamilton in Black Power: The Politics of Liberation.'

That's well over fifty years ago. Plus this, which just about sums up everything that a few people in this thread have been trying to get across:

'Carmichael and Hamilton wrote in 1967 that while individual racism is often identifiable because of its overt nature, institutional racism is less perceptible because of its "less overt, far more subtle" nature. Institutional racism "originates in the operation of established and respected forces in the society, and thus receives far less public condemnation than individual racism".[3]

Institutional racism was defined by Sir William Macpherson in the UK's Lawrence report (1999) as: "The collective failure of an organisation to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture, or ethnic origin". It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviour that amount to discrimination through prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness, and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people.'

There then follows a litany of examples of 'institutional racism' right up to the present day.

 

[RDKirk]

You could have easily checked. From wiki: 'The term institutional racism was first coined in 1967 by Stokely Carmichael and Charles V. Hamilton in Black Power: The Politics of Liberation.'

That's well over fifty years ago. Plus this, which just about sums up everything that a few people in this thread have been trying to get across:

'Carmichael and Hamilton wrote in 1967 that while individual racism is often identifiable because of its overt nature, institutional racism is less perceptible because of its "less overt, far more subtle" nature. Institutional racism "originates in the operation of established and respected forces in the society, and thus receives far less public condemnation than individual racism".[3]

Institutional racism was defined by Sir William Macpherson in the UK's Lawrence report (1999) as: "The collective failure of an organisation to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture, or ethnic origin". It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviour that amount to discrimination through prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness, and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people.'

There then follows a litany of examples of 'institutional racism' right up to the present day.

Nowhere in there was structural racism or institutional racism described as "inequal outcomes."

We weren't even looking at "inequal outcomes" in 1967 (I was there, then). We were looking at equalizing opportunities and removing specific legal, procedural, regulation, and policy structures that we could specifically identify.

 

[Ana the Ist]

What, exactly, is the nature of the work they do?

Law enforcement.

This 1/2500 figure is supposedly the rate of complaints out of all police-civilian contacts.

Well I'm sure we're only talking about recorded contacts....not all contacts in general. We aren't talking about, for example, every time a traffic cop directs traffic through an intersection or around an accident. I also doubt we're talking about every cop on scene....if 5 cops respond to a domestic disturbance, I don't think we're counting that as 5 cops. It's recorded as 1 encounter.

But anyway....

But what is the makeup of those contacts? IOW, what percentage are traffic citations? What percentage are questioning of witnesses? What percentage are them standing guard at a football game? What percentage are responding to calls for help? What percentage are interactions with suspects? What percentage of their contacts would even warrant them being in a situation where a brutality complaint could even be conceivable?

Given that literally all of those instances can turn into a deadly force encounter....I don't think it matters. You may recall a female cop not long ago getting ambushed while she was simply sitting in her parked patrol vehicle and was killed by the two suspects involved. Literally 100% of the time they are in uniform they can need to use force.

Not only are those not poor analogies, but I think you make my case for me.

I don't know the number of general complaints levied against Walmart or airlines, but I would not be surprised at all if they hit those kinds of numbers. I don't know anybody who would consider it "rare" to have a poor experience at either Walmart or on an airplane. IME, patronizing either one is typically miserable and I go into it expecting as much.

Then why keep shopping there. I don't expect 5 star service from Walmart but I don't think I'd call it a miserable experience and as far as employees behaving inappropriately towards me...I can probably count them all on one hand.

If complaint rates got that high in those industries, we'd consider that experience to be normal, not rare.

Well that begs the question of what a "rare" experience is then?

Because this issue was brought up in regards to what can be considered "normal" police culture and it seems reasonable to define that according to the behavior of police 99.96% of the time.....not their behavior 00.04% of the time.

Is it far bigger?

Yeah.

The earlier post said that there are 56 million police interactions per year, yielding 26,000 brutality complaints for a ratio of 1 complaint per 25,000 interactions.

Right.

There are roughly 50 million public school students in the US. I don't know how many "interactions" they have with different school adults each day, but between teachers, administrators, bus drivers, etc. 5 strikes me as very conservative and 10 seems pretty likely. So that puts us at 250-500 million interactions per school day * 180 school days per year = 45-90 billion student-adult interactions per year.

Your Politico article said there were ~15,000 assaults per year. That's 1 out of 3-6 million interactions.

The NBC article said that 1/10 kids would experience something inappropriate over the course of their 13 years in school. 5-10 interactions per day * 180 days / yr * 13 years = 11,700 - 23,400 interactions per student. If 10% of students experience something, that would put the incident rate between 1 in 117,000 and 1 in 234,000.

Obviously, none are acceptable. But the rates appear to be orders of magnitude off from police complaints.

You're padding those stats considerably lol. That would be akin to every single time you see a police car on the road, it's an "interaction".

Besides, I think you've missed the point that absolutely nothing about a teacher's job could be mistaken for a sexual assault/harassment etc. Police regularly have to use force to enact an arrest...the reason why claims of brutality rarely get convicted is they are exonerated by the video evidence. Show me the teacher who accidentally tripped and fell on the student he was accused of groping.

For as much as the left likes to propose biases as the cause of misperceptions by police, they seem to never consider the effects of biases on their own misperceptions. There's a semi viral survey asking liberals how often they thought unarmed black men were killed by police annually. Answers ranged from the wildly inaccurate (hundreds) to the comically stupid (tens of thousands) and only a tiny minority was correct (<50). Why?

Why Our Brains Are Hardwired to Focus on the Negative

The brain has a built-in negative bias that causes us to focus on bad things. This negativity bias can have an impact on our behavior and decisions.

www.verywellmind.com

Negative perception bias is a well researched, well documented, and measurable bias that unlike implicit bias....actually provides a good explanation for many misperceptions.

If you want to characterize police by their rare, and most negative interactions with the public instead of the excellent job they do 99% of the time....it's probably because you're being influenced by negative perception bias. It's the most likely culprit in this case. Imagine if we picked the laziest, do nothing, barely achieving the bare minimum employee at your job....and then said that he was a good example of the work culture in your particular industry. You'd probably disagree....no matter how many stories people had of dealing with this person in your job. You would be right to disagree....because all the employees doing their job correctly or even exemplary aren't going to stick out in anyone's mind. They get overlooked and everyone simply remembers the one doofus who makes the rest of your coworkers look bad.

I strongly suspect that's what's going on here.