Modern day systemic racism, does it exist?

[RDKirk]

It's certainly possible this is racially motivated.

My main issue on gerrymandering is that literally both sides do it. You can read about it in both sides media. Is Democratic gerrymandering less racist? I doubt it.

The whole process is pretty stupid. I can't honestly tell you what a non gerrymandered state looks like. I don't recall ever seeing it. Each side draws lines in their favor.

You mentioned proportionality as a possible indication of a problem. That's a rather good view. If you'll indulge me in a hypothetical practical example....

Imagine two schools. One student body is mostly white....the other mostly black. The white school draws from a larger tax base and student outcomes are better. This creates a disparity between student outcomes.

Seeing this, the mayor coordinates for better funding....the majority of which goes to the black school....and eventually, student outcomes equalize.

Yet in the process...we created another disparity. State funding is disproportionally higher at the black school. They get more tax dollars than the white school.

Realistically, if a disparity in of itself is an indication of bias....these are both legitimate problems. I think student outcomes are more important...but I don't have kids in school. If I did, I might feel cheated on the taxes.

A disparity is to be expected....top to bottom, left to right, across any groups we examine. Fixing one creates another. I don't see any problem with looking at them....but to draw conclusions about causality is overly simplistic. Disparities are the norm. Equal outcomes are the rarity.

As I also said in the same post:

I can't think of any situation where true "equal outcome" is desirable over "fair procedure."

 

[Ana the Ist]

But you REALLY think that white Republican Christian fraidy cats are NOT?

No.

At least black people ACTUALLY HAVE a loooooong history of repression and mistreatment.

Do they? Is there a people who don't have a history of persecution?

I don't think you understand the point I made. I've met Roma Gypsys who believe they're persecuted, right here in the US, by people who have no idea they're Roma Gypsys. It's all in their heads....part of a story they tell themselves.

Remember the "war on Christmas"?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I explicitly said about "equal outcomes:"



Did you miss that, or did you ignore it purposefully?

I guess I would admit I misunderstood what you meant. It's not intentional.

Then I spoke of "proportional outcomes." I did not say "proportionality" to be applied anywhere willy-nilly such as in funding. I was speaking of outcomes.

Yes, a disproportionate outcome might be a flag of a problem in what we are trying to make a fair process. Or it might not. Jordan Peterson notes that in Scandinavian countries women are still disproportionately over-represented in fields like nursing and teaching, and also disproportionately under-represented in fields like engineering. Yet, there is no discernible cause in the process of education (either in the social environment or in formal education) that should have caused that disproportionality.

Yet, noting the disproportionality, it was worthwhile to research the cause. Sometimes the problem may have been fixed as well as it can be fixed, but even the people who are proportionately under-represented may take time--even a generation or two--to "step up to the plate."

I think that's a problem among black Americans today in the inner city. When I was in high school in the 60s, acquiring education was highly supported in my community. Whether one's political view was traditional (education being the key to successfully adopting Anglo-American culture) or revolutionary (the intellectual was considered key to successful revolution), education was prized and encouraged from all sides. I was called "the Prof" in school by other kids...and that was not a negative epithet.

There was no issue at that time about education being "trying to be white." That's an example of "stepping back" from the plate. But it's an example of a problem that may cause a disproportionate outcome that isn't a problem with the process of public school education. It's a problem of a different process.

Ok...can you describe the difference between a "proportional outcome" and an "equal outcome"?

 

[rambot]

No.



Do they? Is there a people who don't have a history of persecution?

Yes.
Western European white men and landed American white men....not immigrants through the late 19th and 20th century though.

 

[RDKirk]

I guess I would admit I misunderstood what you meant. It's not intentional.



Ok...can you describe the difference between a "proportional outcome" and an "equal outcome"?

Proportional outcomes can be expressed in different ways, depending on the agenda. If 13.6% of doctors in the US are black, that would be proportional to population. If 0.29% of blacks are doctors, that would be proportional as well.

(Interestingly, the proportion of blacks who are doctors as well as the proportion of doctors who are black is less now that it was 100 years ago.)

Equal outcomes would be that the number of black doctors in the US would be equal to the number of white doctors in the US (and to the number Indian doctors, Latino doctors, et cetera).

 

[BNR32FAN]

It’s hard for non minorities to see systemic racism because it’s been that way or it’s the way they have always done it. This is wrong and not right. As an entrepreneur Black woman in America. I see it everyday. We have to fight for every little inch.

Who doesn’t have to fight for every inch? Unfairness in life is unbiased, it affects all races, nationalities, religious, non religious, etc. I’m a 49 year old white male and I’ve worked hard all my life struggling the entire way. I think a huge part of the problem with minorities is they have a tendency to blame racism for their struggles not realizing how hard it is for non minorities to make a living. I think a lot of minorities are under the false impression that if a white man works hard he will definitely get that promotion but I have news for you the grass isn’t any greener on the other side. We get passed over for promotions, we get hassled by police, we get attacked by people of other colors. That’s just life and we all have to fight our way thru it trying to survive.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Proportional outcomes can be expressed in different ways, depending on the agenda. If 13.6% of doctors in the US are black, that would be proportional to population. If 0.29% of blacks are doctors, that would be proportional as well.

(Interestingly, the proportion of blacks who are doctors as well as the proportion of doctors who are black is less now that it was 100 years ago.)

Equal outcomes would be that the number of black doctors in the US would be equal to the number of white doctors in the US (and to the number Indian doctors, Latino doctors, et cetera).

But it doesn’t work that way because blacks have the lowest percentage of college graduates than any other race in America. And it’s not the whites that have the highest percentage but the Asians. Is it because America likes Asians more than they like whites or is it because Asians just have a higher percentage of people who put forth the effort than all other races in America?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Compared to how hard it was for my parents...our situation today is a paltry complication. The fact that people have to talk about "microaggression" compared to my father being called by supervisor and coworkers "n-----" to his face...and had to accept it. Or that a supervisor could openly state that he'd never promote a "n-----" and that was the way things were.

And now we have people upset that Ikea offered fried chicken in its cafeteria in honor of Black History Month.

The level of racism that may still exist today is not sufficient to prevent anyone from flourishing, except by his own failure. We're at the level now that racism is no more significant in preventing a person from flourishing than the hardships commonly endured for many other discriminatory reasons, such as "pretty privilege" and "tall man privilege." And the same is true for sexism.

Amen, America elected a black president twice now which is proof that the majority of Americans are not racists. Unfortunately racism will never completely be done away with but we’re making progress by leaps & bounds.

 

[Pommer]

Amen, America elected a black president twice now which is proof that the majority of Americans are not racists. Unfortunately racism will never completely be done away with but we’re making progress by leaps & bounds.

Yes, white people are better now than we ever have been.
Is that “enough”?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think we imagine most of America like the place we grew up.




I think the black community is dangerously close to embedding a persecution complex like early Christians or Roma Gypsies.

I met a girl who was a Roma Gypsy once. Asked her about Romania....why her parents left. She said they fled terrible persecution for being gypsies. I asked for an example....like what specifically....

She said she once took her mom to the hospital and the person who came in after them got seen first. She was certain it was because they didn't like gypsies

That was her strongest experience.

When I see "American Apartheid" it looks like that.

This is what I was talking about in another post. Now I’m not saying that racism isn’t high in Romania but was the mother actually being discriminated against or did the next patient actually have a more serious health issue because hospitals don’t operate on a first come first serve basis?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, white people are better now than we ever have been.
Is that “enough”?

As far as the laws are concerned I think we have everything in place as it should be. Now if your trying to stop individuals from being racist then that’s a much tougher battle that can never be won. Anti discrimination movements not only cause compassion and sentiment but also anger and resentment. It’s almost like a Hatfields vs Mc Coys feud that constantly refuels itself.

 

[rturner76]

Really? What are we supposed to base them on? Spanish values and systems? African values and systems?
Chinese values and systems?

Native American values and systems

 

[rturner76]

What's wrong with that?

The problem has not been that Eurocentric values and systems are the basis, the problem is that they have not been equally administered. Justice Taney's Supreme Court ruling trailed on for a hundred years after he stated, "The black man has no rights that a white man is obliged to observe."

Not being equally administered IS the Eurocentric system.

 

[rambot]

Who doesn’t have to fight for every inch? Unfairness in life is unbiased, it affects all races, nationalities, religious, non religious, etc. I’m a 49 year old white male and I’ve worked hard all my life struggling the entire way.

That doesn't mean everyone's struggles are the same.
You've had a decent paying job your entire life and you had a job with INCREDIBLE job protection even though your job was very stressful, that certainty of employment (and the pay itself) allowed you luxuries MANY other people don't have and took away struggles others have. Though it gave you other additional stressors too. Do you believe a black and a white cop partner team in, say Los Angeles have the EXACT same list of stressors?

I think a huge part of the problem with minorities is they have a tendency to blame racism for their struggles not realizing how hard it is for non minorities to make a living.

I think a huge part of the problem with some white folks is that they "can't" recognize the struggles that they don't have and REFUSE to listen to the people WITH the struggles and recognize that minorites have their struggles AND the same ones they have.

I think a lot of minorities are under the false impression that if a white man works hard he will definitely get that promotion but I have news for you the grass isn’t any greener on the other side. We get passed over for promotions, we get hassled by police, we get attacked by people of other colors.

I have never met a minority who didn't recognize those things. I have never heard a reasonable minority person say "White people never have any problems". I am curious about how you came to those conclusions.

Also, if EVERYONE gets hassled by the police, why isn't EVERYONE on board with re-evaluating what policing looks like in the US? Cops shouldn't be hassling anyone.

 

[rambot]

As far as the laws are concerned I think we have everything in place as it should be. Now if your trying to stop individuals from being racist then that’s a much tougher battle that can never be won. Anti discrimination movements not only cause compassion and sentiment but also anger and resentment. It’s almost like a Hatfields vs Mc Coys feud that constantly refuels itself.

And it speaks to the lack of empathy for those not willing to support victims of racism.

 

[rturner76]

What do you mean by "the current generation?" Boomers, most certainly, because we were raised as children in a segregated society. Some of that is going to wash down to the X-genners. But I would argue not the Z Generation...at least not the kind of racism we were taught as kids in the 1950s.

It is possible for Z genners to become racist through their own experiences. Frankly, if all I knew about black people was what I saw in the mediat (even by our own creation, such as on TikTok), I'd be inclined to be prejudiced against black people myself. But I would not say the Z Generation is being taught by society, certainly not the way it was taught to us.

At this moment, we Boomers still control media, industry, and politics...and we are racist. But we'll be dead soon.

I can't disagree. I have noticed society, especially since the new millennium is not encouraging people to be racist but the opposite. Still people will always be looking out for their own.

 

[rambot]

What's wrong with that?

The problem has not been that Eurocentric values and systems are the basis, the problem is that they have not been equally administered. Justice Taney's Supreme Court ruling trailed on for a hundred years after he stated, "The black man has no rights that a white man is obliged to observe."

And that is systemic racism yes?

 

[rturner76]

Compared to how hard it was for my parents...our situation today is a paltry complication. The fact that people have to talk about "microaggression" compared to my father being called by supervisor and coworkers "n-----" to his face...and had to accept it. Or that a supervisor could openly state that he'd never promote a "n-----" and that was the way things were.

And now we have people upset that Ikea offered fried chicken in its cafeteria in honor of Black History Month.

The level of racism that may still exist today is not sufficient to prevent anyone from flourishing, except by his own failure. We're at the level now that racism is no more significant in preventing a person from flourishing than the hardships commonly endured for many other discriminatory reasons, such as "pretty privilege" and "tall man privilege." And the same is true for sexism.

No, I get what you are saying. I guess what I mean is being black alone is surely not a privilege in this country. My dad told me about not being allowed to look a white man in the eye. I definitely never had it that bad though when I was young, I was called the n-word but I didn't experience the violence my dad's generation did. I remember being afraid to go in the woods at night because I thought the Klan was on patrol out there. The new generation seems to look at the Klan like a joke these days but back in the day, the Klan had judges, senators, governors, etc. that were involved.

 

[rambot]

Amen, America elected a black president twice now which is proof that the majority of Americans are not racists. Unfortunately racism will never completely be done away with but we’re making progress by leaps & bounds.

I'm not American so I can understand that my opinion may not be welcome but I think an important thing to note is that, while the majority of Americans aren't racists, there are large geographical pockets where racism is a problem. America is a BIG place, and I may be talking out of my tukkus, but I still would guess that the black experience is NOT the same all over America.

Could anyone with experience speak to that?

 

[RDKirk]

Native American values and systems

They kept slaves.