Modern day systemic racism, does it exist?

[Ana the Ist]

Different racial outcomes.

And why are different racial outcomes a problem?

If we had 100 Asians, 100 whites, and 100 blacks take the same math test, we would expect 3 different average scores...in fact, it doesn't matter how we group these 300 individuals, we would expect 3 different average scores.

Why is this a problem?

Score #1 92/100
Score #2 85/100
Score #3 79/100

But this isn't a problem?

Score #1 87/100
Score #2 87/100
Score #3 87/100

Nobody whining about systemic racism seems to be able to explain this.

 

[Pommer]

And why are different racial outcomes a problem?

If we had 100 Asians, 100 whites, and 100 blacks take the same math test, we would expect 3 different average scores...in fact, it doesn't matter how we group these 300 individuals, we would expect 3 different average scores.

Why is this a problem?

Score #1 92/100
Score #2 85/100
Score #3 79/100

But this isn't a problem?

Score #1 87/100
Score #2 87/100
Score #3 87/100

Nobody whining about systemic racism seems to be able to explain this.

You lost me, but that’s okay, I know your position: there is no systemic racism.
Enjoy your holidays.

 

[rjs330]

High crime rates, high policing rates, and any rate of police brutality disproportionately affecting Black people is, by definition, systemic racism. You’re clearly very invested in denying this fact. Let’s explore why that is.

What happens to you if you’re presented with undeniable proof that systemic racism exists? Why is it so important to you that this cannot be the case?

No it's not. We've already discussed this. Your idea that policing high crime areas is somehow racist illogical. Why? Cause it's not racist in it's purpose or nature. Policing goes to where the crime is. In areas where the crime rate is high in predominantly white neighborhoods then the police would go there. So, it cannot be systemically racist.

If these black areas would stop being hotbeds of crime the police would go away. That is proof positive race has nothing to do with it. So blame the criminals for being black. Cause the nature of policing is NOT to just go to black people no matter how good it is there. It's to prevent, and intestigate and respond to crime. It's ONLY the criminals fault. And if the CRIMINALS are responsible for the police presence then they are the cause. They can't be the cause and then blame systemic racism on police presence. That's a illogical and unrational argument.

I don't believe you can produce something that does not exist.

 

[gaara4158]

No it's not. We've already discussed this. Your idea that policing high crime areas is somehow racist illogical. Why? Cause it's not racist in it's purpose or nature. Policing goes to where the crime is. In areas where the crime rate is high in predominantly white neighborhoods then the police would go there. So, it cannot be systemically racist.

If these black areas would stop being hotbeds of crime the police would go away. That is proof positive race has nothing to do with it. So blame the criminals for being black. Cause the nature of policing is NOT to just go to black people no matter how good it is there. It's to prevent, and intestigate and respond to crime. It's ONLY the criminals fault. And if the CRIMINALS are responsible for the police presence then they are the cause. They can't be the cause and then blame systemic racism on police presence. That's a illogical and unrational argument.

I don't believe you can produce something that does not exist.

See my previous reply. You fundamentally do not understand what systemic racism is. It seems willful in some here. What’s your excuse?

 

[rturner76]

Policing goes to where the crime is.

Unless it's white-collar crime or international drug cartel crime. It's mostly plucking dime bag dealers off the corner who have no resources to defend themselves in court. Easy convictions to replenish the legal slave trade in the prison system.

 

[RDKirk]

Interesting. So it’s about the threat of being called a racist for you? Ironically, if you took the time to really comprehend what the scholars and I are talking about, you’d recognize that systemic racism doesn’t have anything to do with people being racist. Systemic racism isn’t about racism as a determining factor, it’s about unjust racial disparities as an outcome. You denying that systemic racism exists thus ends up making you more of a racist actor than simply admitting that it does.

I will point out, again that "systemic racism" has gotten that particular re-definition only in recent years in academic circles, and then only to claim it continues to exist after "systemic racism" as previously defined has been eliminated.

But this debate over police abuse is actually not directive of the issue. Even if we accept that police are abusing blacks to some degree greater than whites (and that is debatable, after correcting for a number of other factors), it's still a fact that it does not prevent any particular black person from flourishing today.

There is nothing today outside our own culture that prevents us as black people from flourishing. We face nothing outside our own culture that prevents us from doing as well as, say, immigrant Africans or Jamaicans. If we don't do as well as Africans in America, that's the fault of our own cultural dyfunctions.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You lost me, but that’s okay, I know your position: there is no systemic racism.
Enjoy your holidays.

Those are different racial outcomes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/12/08/racism-our-curriculums-isnt-limited-history-its-math-too/

Why did you think people are saying ridiculous stuff like "math is racist" these days?

That's a system that creates different racial outcomes. That's what you call "systemic racism". I know it sounds like a absurd position to hold....but that's the position you're taking.

They're even suggesting eliminating "grades" to fix this supposed "problem".

Professor says grading system is racist, proposes labor-based system: 'White language supremacy'

An Arizona State University professor is calling for the end to “White supremacy language,” and to do away with the common way of grading papers in favor of labor-based grading

www.foxnews.com

Explain why this is a problem?

Do you even understand what you're supporting?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Interesting. So it’s about the threat of being called a racist for you? Ironically, if you took the time to really comprehend what the scholars and I are talking about, you’d recognize that systemic racism doesn’t have anything to do with people being racist. Systemic racism isn’t about racism as a determining factor, it’s about unjust racial disparities as an outcome. You denying that systemic racism exists thus ends up making you more of a racist actor than simply admitting that it does.

Nice deflect but in order for something to be properly classified as systemic racism the cause must derive from racism and you’ve yet to provide any such evidence to support your claim because you completely ignore the why in the examples provided in this thread. When the causes are not derived from racism then the effects cannot be classified as systemic racism because it has nothing to do with race.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Nice deflect but in order for something to be properly classified as systemic racism the cause must derive from racism and you’ve yet to provide any such evidence to support your claim because you completely ignore the why in the examples provided in this thread. When the causes are not derived from racism then the effects cannot be classified as systemic racism because it has nothing to do with race.

They're literally just complaining about different outcomes.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I will point out, again that "systemic racism" has gotten that particular re-definition only in recent years in academic circles, and then only to claim it continues to exist after "systemic racism" as previously defined has been eliminated.

But this debate over police abuse is actually not directive of the issue. Even if we accept that police are abusing blacks to some degree greater than whites (and that is debatable, after correcting for a number of other factors), it's still a fact that it does not prevent any particular black person from flourishing today.

There is nothing today outside our own culture that prevents us as black people from flourishing. We face nothing outside our own culture that prevents us from doing as well as, say, immigrant Africans or Jamaicans. If we don't do as well as Africans in America, that's the fault of our own cultural dyfunctions.

@RDKirk, this was always the definition. They've never been able to demonstrate an implicit bias, they've rarely been able to find any racial unfairness in the systems.

They've always just looked at the group outcomes and just declared the culprit to be "systemic racism" then they let people imagine whatever causes they want.

 

[IceJad]

And why are different racial outcomes a problem?

If we had 100 Asians, 100 whites, and 100 blacks take the same math test, we would expect 3 different average scores...in fact, it doesn't matter how we group these 300 individuals, we would expect 3 different average scores.

Why is this a problem?

Score #1 92/100
Score #2 85/100
Score #3 79/100

But this isn't a problem?

Score #1 87/100
Score #2 87/100
Score #3 87/100

Nobody whining about systemic racism seems to be able to explain this.

To me this is not a problem at all, the best person get the best results. Any notion that one person cannot be allowed to excel beyond his/her peers solely by skin color is absurd. The best explanation of general racial difference in life outcome is due to the culture and lifestyle they are brought up in.

Take my ethnic group for example (I'm ethnic Chinese therefore East Asian), majority of our race place education and getting ahead in life as priority for our children. We are willing to sacrifice time, money and sometimes even our own dignity to ensure that our children get the best education and spots in life available. While this focus has caused us a great deal of suffering, the outcome is that majority of East Asians are highly educated. It is the price we paid it didn't come free. We burn our quality of life in hope our children need not do so.

To even suggest that equality of outcome is fair is to deny us of our sacrifice. It is to close the door of opportunity in our faces because someone with a difference in skin color didn't do as well as us. Equality of opportunity not outcome if you ever want your society to grow beyond mediocrity and the sense of (underserved) racial entitlement.

 

[rjs330]

See my previous reply. You fundamentally do not understand what systemic racism is. It seems willful in some here. What’s your excuse?

You assumed systemic racism exists here. I don't. Therefore it is up to you to prove that it does. And you haven't. You spouted an illogical argument that when broken down doesn't prove what you think it does.

 

[rjs330]

Unless it's white-collar crime or international drug cartel crime. It's mostly plucking dime bag dealers off the corner who have no resources to defend themselves in court. Easy convictions to replenish the legal slave trade in the prison system.

Perhaps you misunderstand the different types of policing. Street cops handle street crime. Calls for service stuff that is going on right in front of them.

Other kinds of cops handle other types of crime. Patrol officers don't walk around office buildings looking for people embezzling money form their companies. That's not their job. They also have little or no ability to handle international drug cartel crimes. Patrol handles the street and if anything big like drug cartels come up they turn that over to the experts in the feild line the DEA. Local agencies also have drug detectives that handle the larger drug cases that are often built off of the work the patrol does. Patrol doesn't go under cover to bust the big fish.

 

[IceJad]

Unless it's white-collar crime or international drug cartel crime. It's mostly plucking dime bag dealers off the corner who have no resources to defend themselves in court. Easy convictions to replenish the legal slave trade in the prison system.

A crime is a crime regardless of how petty it is. The police should do what they are entrusted to do. You don't get to select the type of crimes they should overlook. If you don't want to end up in prison don't do the crime. It is a simple concept certain people (criminals) in America don't grasp. Just because there are bigger crimes around doesn't mean the smaller ones gets ignored. The Whataboutism when comparing crimes are illogical.

 

[Ken-1122]

Unless it's white-collar crime or international drug cartel crime.

(Ken)
I'm sure Nikki Barns, Frank Lucas, and Bumpy Johnson will disagree with you on that one.

It's mostly plucking dime bag dealers off the corner who have no resources to defend themselves in court. Easy convictions to replenish the legal slave trade in the prison system.

Common sense tells us it is always easier to catch people committing crimes in public than those who do it in secret.

 

[Ana the Ist]

To me this is not a problem at all, the best person get the best results. Any notion that one person cannot be allowed to excel beyond his/her peers solely by skin color is absurd. The best explanation of general racial difference in life outcome is due to the culture and lifestyle they are brought up in.

Take my ethnic group for example (I'm ethnic Chinese therefore East Asian), majority of our race place education and getting ahead in life as priority for our children. We are willing to sacrifice time, money and sometimes even our own dignity to ensure that our children get the best education and spots in life available. While this focus has caused us a great deal of suffering, the outcome is that majority of East Asians are highly educated. It is the price we paid it didn't come free. We burn our quality of life in hope our children need not do so.

To even suggest that equality of outcome is fair is to deny us of our sacrifice. It is to close the door of opportunity in our faces because someone with a difference in skin color didn't do as well as us. Equality of opportunity not outcome if you ever want your society to grow beyond mediocrity and the sense of (underserved) racial entitlement.

Well fundamentally, these are Marxists...they think that anyone should have anything more than anyone else is an "injustice". You can see it in the second article I linked where the professor believes that whomever put in more "labor" deserves the better grade.

Of course, he doesn't explain why. These aren't exactly smart people and I think they understand that to compete...they have to drag down anyone who does better than them.

 

[RDKirk]

Well fundamentally, these are Marxists...they think that anyone should have anything more than anyone else is an "injustice". You can see it in the second article I linked where the professor believes that whomever put in more "labor" deserves the better grade.

Well, my wife is an excellent cook. I never ceases to amaze me how she can go into a kitchen in which I see nothing immediately edible, and within 30 minutes she can have whipped up a terrific meal.

Now, I can go in there and stumble around for a couple of hours--a whole lot more labor--and come up with nothing worth eating. Do I deserve more praise than she because I did more labor and in fact destroyed the worth of the food that was in the kitchen?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well, my wife is an excellent cook. I never ceases to amaze me how she can go into a kitchen in which I see nothing immediately edible, and within 30 minutes she can have whipped up a terrific meal.

Any chance she's giving lessons? Cuz my wife could use some lol.

Now, I can go in there and stumble around for a couple of hours--a whole lot more labor--and come up with nothing worth eating. Do I deserve more praise than she because I did more labor and in fact destroyed the worth of the food that was in the kitchen?

Marx's basic misunderstanding of markets, economics, and capitalism in general...was the idea that labor itself has an inherent value. We don't have to unpack that at all...it's enough to point out that Marx got dunked on so hard for this in his own lifetime, that he basically had to admit he was wrong.

The bigger problem of course, is that this idea is completely central to his economic theories. Did he just throw them out and start from scratch? No. He basically avoided the topic and kept preaching his bad ideas.

You're absolutely correct of course, I don't know why it would matter if someone does more work....especially if they accomplish less or the same as someone doing less work. I currently work a specific detail that no one likes working....so people get mandated to do it. As a result, no one tries hard or does particularly well at this job...because they want off the detail as quickly as possible. I replaced one of three guys doing this job on my shift...and my output was apparently so much higher than the previous three, that the other two guys didn't get replaced when their time on the detail ran out. I literally work alone now (which is great) at a job no one wants (so I can keep it as long as I want) and I have exactly one supervisor I report to....who doesn't bother me at all except to pop in once a day and ask if I need anything lol. I don't pretend to be exceptional at this job, and I would agree that my performance prior to this detail was mediocre at best....but at this one thing, I'm basically doing the work of 3 and making my supervisor look way smarter than he is. I don't even stay late to finish work anymore and I get a bonus around this time of year every year now.

Do I do more work than my predecessors? I doubt it. I would say that I accomplish more than they did with less time and effort. The value isn't found in the labor, or the effort spent on it, but rather on what it accomplishes.

 

[gaara4158]

I will point out, again that "systemic racism" has gotten that particular re-definition only in recent years in academic circles, and then only to claim it continues to exist after "systemic racism" as previously defined has been eliminated.

But this debate over police abuse is actually not directive of the issue. Even if we accept that police are abusing blacks to some degree greater than whites (and that is debatable, after correcting for a number of other factors), it's still a fact that it does not prevent any particular black person from flourishing today.

There is nothing today outside our own culture that prevents us as black people from flourishing. We face nothing outside our own culture that prevents us from doing as well as, say, immigrant Africans or Jamaicans. If we don't do as well as Africans in America, that's the fault of our own cultural dyfunctions.

This view on systemic racism, or what is sometimes referred to as structural racism, has been recognized for over 30 years. Maybe that’s recent for you, but that’s as long as many people can remember. This assertion that it doesn’t exist or can be entirely reduced to cultural differences (which themselves cannot be traced back to any form of racist policy in the past) isn’t evidence-based.

Nice deflect but in order for something to be properly classified as systemic racism the cause must derive from racism and you’ve yet to provide any such evidence to support your claim because you completely ignore the why in the examples provided in this thread. When the causes are not derived from racism then the effects cannot be classified as systemic racism because it has nothing to do with race.

Fascinating. It’s like you are physically incapable of processing what I’m telling you. Just read it again, maybe?

You assumed systemic racism exists here. I don't. Therefore it is up to you to prove that it does. And you haven't. You spouted an illogical argument that when broken down doesn't prove what you think it does.

It’s not an assumption, it’s an observation that a bunch of you have a really hard time grasping for some reason.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This view on systemic racism, or what is sometimes referred to as structural racism, has been recognized for over 30 years. Maybe that’s recent for you, but that’s as long as many people can remember. This assertion that it doesn’t exist or can be entirely reduced to cultural differences (which themselves cannot be traced back to any form of racist policy in the past) isn’t evidence-based.

Fascinating. It’s like you are physically incapable of processing what I’m telling you. Just read it again, maybe?


It’s not an assumption, it’s an observation that a bunch of you have a really hard time grasping for some reason.

I know exactly what your telling me, your telling me that any situation that effects any particular race disproportionately is systematic racism which is not the definition of the term.