Which is not to say that someone else, for the sake of their denial of the divinity of the Son, would not do so.
Your continual warning about 'the utterance of God' is perplexing:
Firstly, because no one on this board expressed any disagreement, or even suggested that this was the case.
Secondly, you wrote specifically to me, makes it appear as if you are trying to refute what you supposed to be my belief that "The Word" is the utterance of God, but I never expressed such a belief, and even kept denying that this was my belief each time you brought it up
However, the meaning and correct understanding of Scripture, and any writing, is what the writer meant in them, not what the reader thinks.
You don't know what John actually meant, just as you did not know what I meant when I referred to Lord Jesus as "The Word of God." You are supposing your own beliefs about what you think others are thinking. If John does not actually state that he is explaining Greek philosophy, we should not make such conclusions. Rather, we should accept that John was inspired by the Spirit of Christ to explain the mystery of the OT Scriptures regarding Lord Jesus and the Gospel.
Since God taught John by Revelation, that Jesus is "The Word of God" that should give you a clue that John was not referring to Greek philosophy when describing Lord Jesus as "The Word" in
John 1:1-14; rather, the same God who revealed to him that Jesus is "The Word of God" in
Revelation 19:13 is the same God who inspired John to write
John 1:1-14.
Unless otherwise stated by the Apostle, the instruction they give is to explain the mystery within the OT about Lord Jesus and the Gospel.
Romans 16:25-27 (NIV) 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the
mystery hidden for long ages past, 26
but now revealed and
made known through the
prophetic writings by the
command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith— 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
Ephesians 3:4-6 (NIV) 4
In reading this, then, you will be able
to understand my insight into the
mystery of Christ, 5 which was
not made known to people in other generations as it
has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 1:25-27 (NIV) 25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to
present to you [in what he is now writing to them about in this Epistle] the word of God in its fullness— 26
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is
now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Colossians 2:1-4 (NIV) 2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the
full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may
know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3
in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.
Ephesians 3:8-11 (NIV) 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and
to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which
for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God [
which is the Gospel Revelation that God commanded to be put into writing: Romans 16:25-27] should be
made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Peter 1:10-16 (NIV) 10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have
now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you
by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
2 Corinthians 1:13 (NIV) 13 For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand.
1 Corinthians 4:6 (NIV) 4 … “Do not go beyond what is written.”
It matters to what the writer meant, and to its import, whether logos means spoken word or not.
If it does mean spoken word, it introduces the notion that the Son was spoken into being, an act of creation like matter, making the Son a creature, and not God.
Logos meaning the "spoken word" is a notion ripe for abuse by Trinity deniers, such as the poster Nux, and so must be guarded against.
Again, it's about the false notion, not about you.
Did "Nux" say that Jesus (The Word) is the spoken word of God?
What muddies the water is what Trinity deniers try to do with such statements as "Word of God," if it is not clearly delineated not to mean the spoken word.
You are harping on a point that no one disagreed with on this board discussion. Naturally, I was perplexed as to why you kept repeating the same issue, when no one disagreed.
- When you use Greek philosophy to explain "The Word" you are muddying the waters.
- When you say that John is the only one who described Lord Jesus as "The Word" you are muddying the waters.
- When you say that "The Word of God" is only used once in Scripture, you are muddying the waters.
Since God taught John by Revelation, that Jesus is "The Word of God" that should give you a clue that John was not referring to Greek philosophy when describing Lord Jesus as "The Word" in John 1:1-14.
Keeping in mind, the word in the creation account is the word of God
spoken (
Ge 1:3,
6,
9,
11,
14,
20,
24) not the word of God
generated.
The Word of God generated (the Son) spoke creation into being.
True, however, John, through the inspiration of the Spirit, provided us with an understanding of the Word's person-hood and function in creation - a mystery that was not made known previously. Consequently, the OT surely does give us clues into this mystery of God being as a multi-personal being. For instance, see:
Genesis 1:26-27;
Genesis 3:22-23;
Genesis 11:7-9;
Genesis 19:24;
Amos 4:11;
Zechariah 2:8-11;
Zechariah 6:9-15;
Proverbs 8:22-31.
The Apostle John, being a Jewish convert to Christianity by Lord Jesus, and inspired by God to remind him of the OT Scriptures regarding himself, would have inspired knowledge about God as a multi-personal being, with Jesus, being that Word of God existing with God in the beginning, through whom God created all things. God taught John these things from the OT Scriptures.
Even the word "God," when referring to Jehovah, is frequently written in the plural form, which could likely indicate that God is one being, but multi-personal, since that is what the NT explains to us, and of which the OT alludes to in many Scriptures - that God is a plural being.
Psalms and Proverbs were not written in Greek, did not use logos, and have no bearing on the meaning of logos.
I do understand your thoughtful points. However, they do not address an important issue as it relates to the Trinity, and its deniers, and which is the basis for my statements; i.e., preservation of the "Word of God" as begotten, not as spoken.
God's word is equivalent to God's wisdom in Scripture - God's words embody the Wisdom of God to mankind (EI:
Deuteronomy 4:5-6;
Jeremiah 8:9;
Psalms 111:10;
2 Timothy 3:15)
John was a Jewish convert to Lord Jesus for the NT Gospel. What other sources do you think John would use as inspired evidence than the OT Scriptures? If you hadn't noticed, the Four Gospels and the Epistles frequently quote, or refer back to, the OT Scriptures when teaching the mystery of the Gospel and Lord Jesus.
Just because the OT Scriptures were not originally authored in Greek, does not discredit their significance in what John, by inspiration of the Spirit, may have been given greater revelation of, rather than on Greek philosophers.
I, therefore, disagree that Psalms and Proverbs have no bearing on the meaning of Logos. All of God's words are understood to embody the wisdom of God in the OT.
Deuteronomy 4:5-6 (WEB) 5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and ordinances, even as Yahweh my God commanded me, that you should do so in the middle of the land where you go in to possess it. 6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who shall hear all these statutes and say, “Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.”
Jeremiah 8:9 (WEB) The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the Lord, what kind of wisdom do they have?
Psalms 111:10 (WEB) The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.
2 Timothy 3:15 (WEB) 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Read how Wisdom speaks in
Proverbs 1;
Proverbs 8:1-9:12. After reading, we see an uncanny similarity between the sayings of personified Wisdom with those of Lord Jesus.
