Why are school shootings a sole unique American problem?

[FenderTL5]

I just pointed out that gun ownership is higher among Israelis than Americans.

and you were wrong.

Please do not quote lies.

It would seem that I'd have to stop quoting your posts.


Another source.

 

[Gene2memE]

Again, I must point out that schools are gun-free zones. If all school staff were locked and loaded, with an armored security guard, a metal detector, and a double door that everyone must pass through, in or out, would schools be safer? I believe they would be.

If you turn US schools into concentration camps/prisons, then yes, there may be fewer shootings.
However, you may also find yourself in a school with no students, teachers or administration. Having spent multiple years as a teacher (including some time in the US) and speaking as a gun owner, if you'd have asked me to be armed as part of the job, I'd have be handing in my notice immediately.

 

[Torah Keeper]

Apparently you did not read my previous post. That graph you show is misleadingly deceptive because it only shows civilian gun ownership.

View attachment 324025
and you were wrong.


It would seem that I'd have to stop quoting your posts.


Another source.

If you had read this post:

Let's compare Israel to get a better understanding. Everyone in Israel, male or female, must serve at least 2 years in the IDF. That is ~100% of the population, except for certain exemptions. If you ever visit Israel, you may see soldiers carrying guns as they walk down the street, women with a rifle slung over their shoulder at the grocery store, and it's totally normal there. Even USA does not have this rate of gun use. The numbers are skewed because these graphs only look at civilian gun use, not military. So when ~100% of the population is military, that leaves very few civilians with guns, because there are very few civilians at all. Yet, despite that fact that Israelis are far more likely to be carrying a gun at any given time than Americans, Israel has a much lower school shooting rate.

You would know that the rate of gun ownership is actually higher in Israel than in USA. Your sources are wrong.

Please read next time, before posting lies.

 

[FenderTL5]

If you had read this post:
You would know that the rate of gun ownership is actually higher in Israel than in USA. Your sources are wrong.

Please read next time, before posting lies.

I read your post. It still reads as-if you're just making it up as you go. Your post has no supporting data, none, whatsoever. You say my sources are wrong, yet you provide no source at all. Why should I believe you?

Another source:

 

[Torah Keeper]

I read your post. It still reads as-if you're just making it up as you go. Your post has no supporting data, none, whatsoever. Why should I believe you?

Another source:
View attachment 324040

There are a lot of polls and graphs online that completely contradict each other. From what I see online, both USA and Israel have roughly the same percentage of gun owners, about 40%. However, this excludes military. And since the IDF is a much bigger % of the population than the military in USA, the average Israeli is more likely to be carrying a gun at any given time.

I think people are cherry picking graphs like the ones in this thread, that are not true at all. Please compare your graph with the one you posted earlier. It completely contradicts it, except for the USA. Now you have Serbia, Yemen, France, and Germany as the next top 4 gun nations instead of Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Switzerland. And the German guy in this thread said most Germans don't own a gun, so how does that add up? It doesn't.

 

[FenderTL5]

There are a lot of polls and graphs online that completely contradict each other..

I have seen no graph showing gun ownership higher in Israel than the USA. Not one.

. Please compare your graph with the one you posted earlier. It completely contradicts it, except for the USA. Now you have Serbia, Yemen, France, and Germany as the next top 4 gun nations instead of Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Switzerland..

The graphs are from different years and different data sets, yet they are consistent in showing your claim to be false.
Every single one of them.
Yet you accuse me of posting lies.

Show me; I want to see the graph showing that there are more guns per capita in Israel than in the USA.
Here's a link to get you started.

Either way; I still say Israeli style regulation(s) would be a good idea.

 

[Gene2memE]

Apparently you did not read my previous post. That graph you show is misleadingly deceptive because it only shows civilian gun ownership.

If you had read this post:

You would know that the rate of gun ownership is actually higher in Israel than in USA. Your sources are wrong.

Please read next time, before posting lies.

No. It's just not.

Given the published figures about the number of firearms in Israel and rates per household, it's physically impossible for the rate of gun ownership in Israel to be higher than the rate of gun ownership in the US. Given the number of weapons in Israel in civil and military hands, and the number of households reporting gun ownership, there simply aren't enough firearms in the country to have a rate of gun ownership that is higher than the US.

Even in a wild scenario where the Israeli government took control of all guns and gave them out one by one, you could get to a maximum theoretical rate of gun ownership rate of about 12-17%. That's somewhere under half of the rate of private gun ownership in the US, and about lower still when when you consider US military and law enforcement.


For those that are interested in the data:

Gunpolicy.org stats give licensed firearm owners in Israel as 2.13 per 100 people (so, about 2% of Israeli's have a licensed firearm). This has not changed broadly, even with the 2018 loosening of some firearms laws.

Per figures from Israel’s Ministry of Internal Security, there were about 292,000 licenced firearms in Israeli civilian hands as of 2012. This had fallen to about 260,000 as of 2018.

The proportion of households with a gun in them in Israel was 3.5% in 2012. Given Israel has a little over 2.6 million households, that means there were about 93,000 households with guns in them.

There were also an estimated 200,000 to 300,000 unlicensed/illegal firearms in Israel and the Palestinian territories, which would increase the proportion of households with a gun to somewhere between 6% and 7% and total civil gun stocks to 460,000 to 560,000.

The total stockpile of military firearms in Israel is just over 1 million. Not all of those are functional (or even personal firearms), but lets stick with that number.

In total, Israel (including the Palestinian territories) has somewhere between 1.5 and 1.6 million firearms inside it. Given a population of 9.4 million, that's a maximum theoretical rate of gun ownership of 17%. If you include the Palestinian populations, that falls to about 12%.


In comparison, the rate of individuals owning a personal firearm in the US is 30-33% (per surveys from Pew, Gallup, the US General Social Survey and Georgetown University).

The amount of households in the US with a gun in them was 42-44% (per Pew and Gallup polling). Given that the US has an estimated 124 million households, that means that there were 52-54.5 million households with guns in them.

In total, there are north of 380 million private firearms in the US (vs under 600,000 in Israel), and another 6-8 million firearms in the hands of the military and police/law enforcement (vs 1 million in Israel).

 

[Gene2memE]

I think people are cherry picking graphs like the ones in this thread, that are not true at all. Please compare your graph with the one you posted earlier. It completely contradicts it, except for the USA. Now you have Serbia, Yemen, France, and Germany as the next top 4 gun nations instead of Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Switzerland. And the German guy in this thread said most Germans don't own a gun, so how does that add up? It doesn't.

One is OECD states only, one is all countries. Hence the comparison.

OCED states are used in a like for like comparison. Like the US, OECD states are wealthy, stable and democratic (things positively correlated with lower rates of violence). Thus, the comparison is even more stark, because the US SHOULD have rates of gun violence similar to these other states, but instead it has rates that are more similar to 3rd world countries and states undergoing civil strife.

 

[Torah Keeper]

I have seen no graph showing gun ownership higher in Israel than the USA. Not one.

The graphs are from different years and different data sets, yet they are consistent in showing your claim to be false.
Every single one of them.
Yet you accuse me of posting lies.

Show me; I want to see the graph showing that there are more guns per capita in Israel than in the USA.
Here's a link to get you started.

Either way; I still say Israeli style regulation(s) would be a good idea.

As much as I hate wikipedia, I will use it as my source because it's a democrat leaning site. So I'm swinging the numbers in your direction to not be biased in which source I use.

According to: Estimated number of civilian guns per capita by country - Wikipedia

The USA population in 2017 was 326,474,000. There were 1,073,743 registered guns among the civilian population. That is one gun for every 304 people.

The Israeli population in 2017 was 8,323,000. There were 290,000 registered guns among the civilian population. That is one gun for every 28.7 people.

Now. That is cold hard facts right there. You can go around estimating the number of unregistered guns all you want, but all you are doing is making up numbers. And I do believe there is a higher % of unregistered guns in USA, but I do not believe it overrides the fact that Israelis also are packing their own share of unregistered guns.

Additionally, as I mentioned, Israelis are all drafted into the IDF. They are required to carry a gun with them everywhere they go. Even while off duty.

So, anyone can make graph, fudge the numbers, post baloney statistics, and gullible people are convinced.

And just to clarify, Fender, I am not accusing you of lying, but only that you posted other people's lies. There is an agenda to disarm America. A nation unarmed is a nation vulnerable. I partly agree with you on gun safety, it needs to be a required course for all students and perhaps all gun owners. But banning guns is not the answer.

Daily life in Israel:

 

[Gene2memE]

P

As much as I hate wikipedia, I will use it as my source because it's a democrat leaning site. So I'm swinging the numbers in your direction to not be biased in which source I use.

According to: Estimated number of civilian guns per capita by country - Wikipedia

The USA population in 2017 was 326,474,000. There were 1,073,743 registered guns among the civilian population. That is one gun for every 304 people.

The Israeli population in 2017 was 8,323,000. There were 290,000 registered guns among the civilian population. That is one gun for every 28.7 people.

Now. That is cold hard facts right there. You can go around estimating the number of unregistered guns all you want, but all you are doing is making up numbers. And I do believe there is a higher % of unregistered guns in USA, but I do not believe it overrides the fact that Israelis also are packing their own share of unregistered guns.

Wow, did you ever miss the mark.
You (mostly) don't have to register guns in the US (that whole 1st Amendment thing). You do have to in Israel.

The US gun industry estimates Americans have purchased more than 10 million guns per year, every year since 2011. 2020 sales passed 20 million:

https://s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/fonteva-customer-media/00D15000000NbUBEA0/SwBudmKw_2021_12_NSSF_NICS_NICS_Annual_Total_History_pdf

EDIT: To add, the FBI's NICS database contains records of 411.6 million background checks for firearms sales since 1998. That's just federal and states from 31 states, DC and the US territories - it doesn't include about 30% of the US population.

So, unless those 1.1 million firearms have been resold 400 times each since 1998, there's a LOT more firearms in the USA.

 

[Bradskii]

By your logic, we should just remove all the fences, locks, armed guards, and security from everywhere in the country, as long as there are no guns, right?

By my logic, actually by what I wrote and which you ignored, was that greater restrictions on gun ownership, exactly as Canada has, seems to make the situation better. As it does in Canada.

Could you comment?

 

[Pommer]

A few, some, most, or all school shootings may in fact be hoaxes. I have a hard time believing they could ALL be hoaxes, but some of these school shootings are suspicious.

I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that plain ol’ folks would “stage” mass murder at a school to push their agenda of taking guns away from people.
Heck, even if it were trained professionals just “acting”, would that actually be worse than dead children in our schools?

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

Very good question. Other countries have guns. Look at Canada(2), and Russia(1), while USA has 288. Russians are also a very violent people, from my own time there.

I've seen a few reasons for this, but I'm not sure the real reason:

• US schools are gun-free zones. Teachers are unarmed. Thus, it is an easy kill zone for mass murder. They target schools because they know no one will fight back.
• A few, some, most, or all school shootings may in fact be hoaxes. I have a hard time believing they could ALL be hoaxes, but some of these school shootings are suspicious.
• Other countries lie and sweep these incidents under the rug. This is probably one of the most likely reasons. "Everything ok in North Korea! It is utopia! No crime here!"
• Shooting up schools is part of the deep state, evil cult, etc. agenda. These are not random emo kids. They are pawns. These attacks are planned well in advance. This is a secret war.

I'd like to read what others have to say about why USA has ~300 school shootings as of Nov, 2022.

honestly if i found out this was true i would not be surprised

 

[Tuur]

Many blame guns (many Europeans countries allow access to guns yet none of this happens), many blame the people and mental health, there is always something to blame but we never get to the actual root of the problem. Why does it happen in America at a much larger rate than the rest of the world? Many from other countries have said that the notion of kids having to practice active shooter drills seems like a dystopian horror for them.

This might well be something characterized as culture bound psychosis. Some expressions of insane behavior tend to be cultural. Running amuck is one associated with Malaysian culture. Wendigo psychosis is another. I think that how schizophrenia patients experience symptoms may also depends on culture, but not sure about that.

 

[Tuur]

I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that plain ol’ folks would “stage” mass murder at a school to push their agenda of taking guns away from people.
Heck, even if it were trained professionals just “acting”, would that actually be worse than dead children in our schools?

Not staged, spun. The question is about how it's reported. Would, say, a gang related shooting have headlines that it's a gang related shooting or as a mass shooting? Logically, it should be reported as a gang shooting, but headlines are the original click bait, so what kind of headline would sell more newspapers or attract more viewers?

 

[David_S42]

I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that plain ol’ folks would “stage” mass murder at a school to push their agenda of taking guns away from people.
Heck, even if it were trained professionals just “acting”, would that actually be worse than dead children in our schools?

You have to accept Alex Jones was popular for a reason. There are people who truly believe what he was selling.

 

[rambot]

Here is, in my mind, the simple truth of it all:
Politicians are too scared to deal with the issue. The only people who can affect meaningful change or even legislate something that could have SOME KIND OF effect, are too affraid to do so.

It doesn't matter what the people want if nobody holds the government to account for not doing anything.

I am NOT convinced that gun control bans are really going to have much of an affect. BUT registration, safety classes, mental health supports, SOMETHING....would. SOMETHING to limit who can buy guns will help.

 

[David_S42]

Here is, in my mind, the simple truth of it all:
Politicians are too scared to deal with the issue. The only people who can affect meaningful change or even legislate something that could have SOME KIND OF effect, are too affraid to do so.

It doesn't matter what the people want if nobody holds the government to account for not doing anything.

I am NOT convinced that gun control bans are really going to have much of an affect. BUT registration, safety classes, mental health supports, SOMETHING....would. SOMETHING to limit who can buy guns will help.

I am NOT convinced that gun control bans are really going to have much of an affect

it works for rest of the world. Why wouldn't it work for USA ?

 

[Tuur]

it works for rest of the world. Why wouldn't it work for USA ?

Representatives of King George III tried it once, but it didn't work.

 

[Fantine]

I would like to see some evidence from an objective news source that indicates that European gun laws are as lax as the United States'.

You are the first person i have ever heard say that.

I would bet even Switzerland, which mandates gun ownership, does not allow the types of guns that we Americans are not protected from.

As for your ideas about what should be done, all I can say is no no no. But since I assume you are mistaken in your initial assessment your argument is built on sand anyway.