Was Man Created Just Flesh?

eleos1954

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True - but the Bible does not define "immortal" the way we sometimes do.

In the Bible context an immortal soul does not sleep... no soul sleep for an immortal soul.
But for mortals - the soul can go dormant. 1 Thess 4:13-18 says we sleep -- it does not say 'we cease to exist'.

John 11 Jesus said "our friend Lazarus sleeps" -- He does not say "our friend Lazarus no longer exists - I go that he may exist again".

But if we define it another way and say that if the soul exists in any form at all whether it sleeps/is dormant or not during death - then it is immortal - well than Matt 10:28 becomes a bit of a problem.

Matt 10:28 in this life they "kill the body but not the soul"

1 Corinthians 15:44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Different kind of body received at resurrection.
 
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BobRyan

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1 Corinthians 15:44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Different kind of body received at resurrection.

Agreed - and 2 Cor 5:1-3 also makes that case.

Which means using a strict Gen 2:7 definition for soul - would mean you have a "different person" a "different living being" resurrected and could never have the same person who died - being resurrected... which effectively deletes the entire doctrine of the resurrection. IT becomes "creation of another soul".

So then instead of one context for all cases where a word appears - the rule is actually "look at the context" and see what it means in that context.
 
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eleos1954

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Agreed - and 2 Cor 5:1-3 also makes that case.

Which means using a strict Gen 2:7 definition for soul - would mean you have a "different person" a "different living being" resurrected and could never have the same person who died - being resurrected... which effectively deletes the entire doctrine of the resurrection. IT becomes "creation of another soul".

So then instead of one context for all cases where a word appears - the rule is actually "look at the context" and see what it means in that context.

I kindish look at it this way ....

We get a brand new "hard drive" and God formats and restores our character/person/identity to that drive less any sin or any "taint/corruption" of any kind ;o)
 
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SavedByGrace3

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In Genesis ... we were given the breath of life .... we became a living being.

A soul is not something one possesses .... we are a soul ... a living being.

Humans do not have a soul but are a soul (1 Corinthians 15:45; Genesis 2:7).
Yes. I have come to believe that when we say "I" or "me," it is our soul that is talking. It is my identity.
 
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In Genesis ... we were given the breath of life .... we became a living being.

A soul is not something one possesses .... we are a soul ... a living being.

Humans do not have a soul but are a soul (1 Corinthians 15:45; Genesis 2:7).
I agree (I may have worded my view incorrectly). When I think of a soul, I think of my identity. God have me a new spirit but I am still me. I'll have a new body, but I'll still be me.
 
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eleos1954

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Yes. I have come to believe that when we say "I" or "me," it is our soul that is talking. It is my identity.

Yes ... each of us has a unique identity ... and that identity will be restored at resurrection less any sin or corruption of any kind. AMEN!!!!! Can't wait!
 
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eleos1954

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I agree (I may have worded my view incorrectly). When I think of a soul, I think of my identity. God have me a new spirit but I am still me. I'll have a new body, but I'll still be me.

Yep ... each of us is unique .... and we'll keep our identity .... less any sin or corruption of any kind. God is so awesome!
 
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SavedByGrace3

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I think sometimes people get confused as to the difference between the "whole man" and the spirit.
When we were born again, it was not our whole man. It was only our spirit. My mind did not get born again, nor did my body. I have to renew my mind and crucify my flesh. But my spirit is completely new. All things about my spirit are made new. I think the distinction is most clear when referring to 1 John 3:9.
1 John 3:9
9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Some have taken this verse and applied it to the whole man. But the whole man was not born of God. Your spirit cannot sin because it is born of God and has the seed of God. Applying this verse to the whole man brings much confusion to believers. They will think they are not saved because there is still sin in them. They get confused because there seems to be a contradiction between this verse and 1 John 1:

1 John 1:8-10
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Because we have uncrucified elements in our flesh and unrenewed aspects in our minds, we will continually struggle against sin. But if we walk according to the inclinations of our reborn spirit, which now has the nature of God, we will never sin.
 
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oikonomia

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I have always been taught and believed that when God breathed life into Adam, He was breathing a spirit into him.
I am interested in people's ideas in this thread.

The way it is written is that when God breathed into the nostrils of the man's body the spirit, the two coming together resulted in man becomming a living soul.

The body received something from God called "the breath of life" and the result was that man became a living SOUL.

"Jehovah God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)

This breath of life is something out of God and it is very close to God Himself. But it is not the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God.
It is very close to this as a kind of antenna for RECEIVING God.

Man is spirit and soul and body (1 Thess. 5:23).
This should be ALL men - regeneted men as well as unregenerated men.
This should be ALL created men - believers or unbelievers alike.


I think on this side of the fall of man we cannot know what it was to have a normal human spirit.
On this side of the fall we know only a damaged and comatose human spirit which needs to be reborn.

But I believe that Adam - out of the shoot, was created with a spirit (the breath of God) a human body made of the dust of the earth.
And when this spirit came into man, man became a living soul. That is a normal yet only human spirit and soul and body.

The spirit being the HIGHEST part of man.
The soul and the body meant to be subservient to the spirit.
Yet in the fall the spirit of man was damaged becomming deadened - comatose.
And the soul arose to be the highest part of man's functioning being.
With some the sin infested flesh rises to the top and you have a further degradation from a "soulish man" to a fleshy or fleshly man.

By the time of the flood of Noah, this sinking of the fallen man to be flesh had comsummted into a world filled with violence.

"And Jehovah said, My Spirit will not strive with man forever, for he indeed is flesh." (Gen. 6:3)

I think He meant that all mankind had descended into being rule totally by the sin nature in the fallen body.
This downward process had an end of sorts - a terrible end.

"And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence because of them . . . (Gen. 6:13)

But as to a man created with a normal spirit - not indwelt yet by God's Spirit, yet normal. This state I think we can never know perhaps.

The revelation of the tripartite nature of man is gradually unfolding. It is more clear in the New Testament than in the Old imo.
But that man has a spirit in him from creation is established.

"The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel, Thus declares Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundation of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him." (Zech 12:1)
 
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oikonomia

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I think sometimes people get confused as to the difference between the "whole man" and the spirit.
When we were born again, it was not our whole man. It was only our spirit. My mind did not get born again, nor did my body. I have to renew my mind and crucify my flesh. But my spirit is completely new. All things about my spirit are made new. I think the distinction is most clear when referring to 1 John 3:9.
1 John 3:9
9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Some have taken this verse and applied it to the whole man. But the whole man was not born of God. Your spirit cannot sin because it is born of God and has the seed of God. Applying this verse to the whole man brings much confusion to believers. They will think they are not saved because there is still sin in them. They get confused because there seems to be a contradiction between this verse and 1 John 1:

1 John 1:8-10
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Because we have uncrucified elements in our flesh and unrenewed aspects in our minds, we will continually struggle against sin. But if we walk according to the inclinations of our reborn spirit, which now has the nature of God, we will never sin.
Very clear and very good.
 
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oikonomia

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"Jehovah God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)

This breath of life is something out of God and it is very close to God Himself. But it is not the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God.
It is very close to this as a kind of antenna for RECEIVING God.
A possible pushback to this is that the animals also could conceivably said to have this breath of life.
Do I mean that the animals also received this "antenna" of God's spirit to receive God?

No I would have to add a caveat that if indeed all creatures reveive this breath of life which God breathed into the nostrils of man, then what is unique about man.

Genesis 7:22 - "Everything in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life. of all that was on the dry land, died."

Aha! God breathed into the horse, the monkey, the cattle also this "breath of life."

I think in the case of humanity this breath of life, this spirit of God was higher. It was suited especially for the man created in the image and according to the likeness of God.
 
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BobRyan

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A possible pushback to this is that the animals also could conceivably said to have this breath of life.
Whatever is alive - has that spark - that breath of life in it.
Do I mean that the animals also received this "antenna" of God's spirit to receive God?

No I would have to add a caveat that if indeed all creatures reveive this breath of life which God breathed into the nostrils of man, then what is unique about man.

Genesis 7:22 - "Everything in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life. of all that was on the dry land, died."
Man is unique in being created "in the image of God" and having a soul that is capable of worshipping God , and has higher intellect.

In the Bible the spirit of man goes back to God at death - but that is not the case with animals as we see in Eccl 3.
 
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JAL

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On another thread a member insisted he knew of a doctrine that Adam was created just flesh and without a spirit.

I have studied theology and this is new to me (I'm trying to reconcile exactly how those who hold this view deal with passages speaking of man's spirit).

I assume the idea comes from 1 Corinthians 15

1 Corinthians 15:45–47 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

But this is contrasting the natural with the spiritual (the life-giving Spirit) .

In Ezekiel we read that God will give man a new spirit (removing the old...implying there was a spirit in man).

So my question is for those who believe Adam was created just flesh - no spirit (or sprit/ soul for those who hold man being two parts).

What passages do you use to defend the idea?
What is the name of the doctrine?
Lastly, what denominations hold this view?
I'm a material monist, much like Tertullian.

In my version of it, I have a fully sentient physical soul, intermixed with a dead body - well, to be more precise, a negligibly sentient body. In my view all supposedly "dead" matter is negligibly alive/sentient. We all know that a rock, for all practical purposes, is completely dead - but that doesn't prove it is dead in the absolute, uttermost, strictest possible sense.

Another poster I recently encountered believes that man consists ONLY of dead particles - dead in the strictest sense. He believes that when such dead particles are properly arranged into a brain, consciousness (a conscious self) "emerges". I told him I can't make that leap. And he probably believes God is a spirit (I didn't ask him).

As for my fully materialistic, Tertullian-like view, I'm pretty sure no denominations hold to it. All the church fathers, except Tertullian, bought into the notion of immaterial spirit postulated by the pagan philosopher Plato. And the rest is history.
 
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JAL

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Regarding that poster who views man as dead particles: he pointed out - although I was already aware of it - that several noted scholars took this view in the 1900's. I'd be surprised if it was more than a dozen theologians. And I'm pretty sure they continued to define God as an immaterial spirit. You might ask how they sought to reconcile this view with the biblical mention of a soul. They would say that the biblical term soul is a reference to the conscious self that "emerges" from these (properly arranged) dead particles, as an epiphenomenon.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I'm a material monist, much like Tertullian.

In my version of it, I have a fully sentient physical soul, intermixed with a dead body - well, to be more precise, a negligibly sentient body. In my view all supposedly "dead" matter is negligibly alive/sentient. We all know that a rock, for all practical purposes, is completely dead - but that doesn't prove it is dead in the absolute, uttermost, strictest possible sense.

Another poster I recently encountered believes that man consists ONLY of dead particles - dead in the strictest sense. He believes that when such dead particles are properly arranged into a brain, consciousness (a conscious self) "emerges". I told him I can't make that leap. And he probably believes God is a spirit (I didn't ask him).

As for my fully materialistic, Tertullian-like view, I'm pretty sure no denominations hold to it. All the church fathers, except Tertullian, bought into the notion of immaterial spirit postulated by the pagan philosopher Plato. And the rest is history.
There is 'something to' most cultic and heretical movements and philosophies, I think, that is useful or true-ish, the basis of which the rest of the church neglects to some degree (and which the cult or heresy emphasizes to excess). That 'something' is usually their identifier, and even their name. As such, there is something to be learned from pretty much any of them, (and an excess to be avoided.)

When asked questions, I have tried to find ways to avoid saying, "Well, yes and no." But sometimes both are necessary. When considering monism, like with most any subject, a person refers to Scripture, where the preponderance of evidence will show "NO", but there are curious considerations in the question of "What is man?" Many of them have to do with "What is material?" Scripture's statements and narratives are often, maybe usually, given with concession to man's temporal, if not materialistic, point of view. God "talks down" to us. We think dualistically because it is hard for us to conceive of material man and spiritual man as anything but dual notions. Yet God comes up with these curious statements and principles, such as the fact that it is these very bodies that will be raised, incorruptible.

I've heard the arguments in the various threads referred to in this one, as to the Bible references on the subject, but none of them really do the job. I see you, JAL, finding yourself best described by the handle, 'material monism', yet your philosophy, to my read, doesn't sound like that. You say material, but you speak in dualistic terms, of a soul intermixed with a body (functioning, dead though it be). (I do something like that when I call myself Reformed, but I do so only because that is probably the theological structure closest resembling what I believe. There are several things I believe that are not Reformed as such, but that don't oppose Reformed distinctives.)

Man proceeds from God, specifically stated to be formed from what apparently proceeded from God directly —dust— that is, man's physical body is stated to be created INDIRECTLY from God, NOT ex nihilo in the sense that dust was apparently created ex nihilo. But his living spirit was breathed into his nostrils, and his flesh became alive. And all through Scripture I find the two, body and spirit, treated individually, with the body rather obviously a dwelling for the spirit, a husk, a shell, a tent. Yet this same corruptible body is said to be already, not just the resurrected incorruptible body, the Temple of the Spirit of God. So this body is, and is not, 'me'.

The many other notions of my personal philosophy affirm and impinge on this, leading to and drawn from the fact that in the end, it is all the work of God, including my very being; I am alive IN HIM, and without him I am nothing, dead. God is both: He is very much other than me, in one sense, but he is my very substance, in another sense.

Anyway, thanks for you post. Brought some fun thinking to mind.
 
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I's2C

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I can understand that men were not spiritually alive then spiritually died (it is appointed to man once to die and then the judgement).

And I get that Adam was not created with what we call "spiritual life" (the Spirit).

But the idea that Adam was created without a spirit, I guess a blob of flesh, seems strange to me.

I've been searching for this belief online but have not found anything yet. Actually I'm giving up. I do not believe such a doctrine exists (Genesis says God breathed into Adam and he became a living being...this is enough to show there was more than flesh).

I did find a lot about whether man is two parts or three, which is interesting. Sometimes it seems spirit and soul are used interchangably, but other times it does not.

I suspect the member ran into somebody who holds the view man is two parts - body and soul - without realizing those who hold the view equate soul to spirit.
First for me, never heard of this before. My question would be why are you searching for this? Put garbage in the garbage. Garbage in, garbage out!
 
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JAL

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. When considering monism, like with most any subject, a person refers to Scripture, where the preponderance of evidence will show "NO",
Actually the preponderance of biblical evidence for material monism is decidedly Yes, assuming you look at it with the proper perspective:
....(1) Matter is all we know for sure, as human beings. To posit matter is an ordinary claim.
....(2) Immaterialism is arguably a fairytale concocted by Plato (viz. "Use the immaterial Force, Luke!"). This is an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims cry out for extraordinary amounts of corroborative evidence. There isn't any evidence that I know of. Zero.
I see you, JAL, finding yourself best described by the handle, 'material monism', yet your philosophy, to my read, doesn't sound like that. You say material, but you speak in dualistic terms, of a soul intermixed with a body (functioning, dead though it be).
Dualism? In my view the body is material. The soul is a second piece of matter - ultimately the same kind of matter except fully awakened - awakened to full sentience. The body's degree of sentience is infinitesimally primordial, ineffably minimal - it is completely negligible. God COULD awaken the body to full sentience but has no desire to do so.

That's what you would call dualism? I really think "material monism" is more accurate.
 
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BobRyan

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On another thread a member insisted he knew of a doctrine that Adam was created just flesh and without a spirit.

I have studied theology and this is new to me (I'm trying to reconcile exactly how those who hold this view deal with passages speaking of man's spirit).
I agree it is an odd teaching .. Matt 10:28 points out that it is not true.
Eccl 12:7 points out that it is not true.
Gen 35:18 points out that it is not true
 
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Mark Quayle

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Actually the preponderance of biblical evidence for material monism is decidedly Yes, assuming you look at it with the proper perspective:
....(1) Matter is all we know for sure, as human beings. To posit matter is an ordinary claim.
....(2) Immaterialism is arguably a fairytale concocted by Plato (viz. "Use the immaterial Force, Luke!"). This is an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims cry out for extraordinary amounts of corroborative evidence. There isn't any evidence that I know of. Zero.

Dualism? In my view the body is material. The soul is a second piece of matter - ultimately the same kind of matter except fully awakened - awakened to full sentience. The body's degree of sentience is infinitesimally primordial, ineffably minimal - it is completely negligible. God COULD awaken the body to full sentience but has no desire to do so.

That's what you would call dualism? I really think "material monism" is more accurate.
I think I could easily enough make your point here better than you have, or defeat it easily enough. But that wasn't the point of my post. I'm not arguing against you. I was pointing out that our view of this question is stunted at best.
 
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JAL

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I think I could easily enough make your point here better than you have, or defeat it easily enough.
I don't think my position is easy to defeat. Especially if you take the proper perspective that I outlined.
 
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