Was Man Created Just Flesh?

[John Caldwell]

On another thread a member insisted he knew of a doctrine that Adam was created just flesh and without a spirit.

I have studied theology and this is new to me (I'm trying to reconcile exactly how those who hold this view deal with passages speaking of man's spirit).

I assume the idea comes from 1 Corinthians 15

1 Corinthians 15:45–47 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

But this is contrasting the natural with the spiritual (the life-giving Spirit) .

In Ezekiel we read that God will give man a new spirit (removing the old...implying there was a spirit in man).

So my question is for those who believe Adam was created just flesh - no spirit (or sprit/ soul for those who hold man being two parts).

What passages do you use to defend the idea?
What is the name of the doctrine?
Lastly, what denominations hold this view?

 

[ViaCrucis]

On another thread a member insisted he knew of a doctrine that Adam was created just flesh and without a spirit.

I have studied theology and this is new to me (I'm trying to reconcile exactly how those who hold this view deal with passages speaking of man's spirit).

I assume the idea comes from 1 Corinthians 15

1 Corinthians 15:45–47 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

But this is contrasting the natural with the spiritual (the life-giving Spirit) .

In Ezekiel we read that God will give man a new spirit (removing the old...implying there was a spirit in man).

So my question is for those who believe Adam was created just flesh - no spirit (or sprit/ soul for those who hold man being two parts).

What passages do you use to defend the idea?
What is the name of the doctrine?
Lastly, what denominations hold this view?

I'll be honest, I am unfamiliar with this teaching. And I've heard quite a lot of things in my time. I'd be surprised if any denomination taught this.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[port41919]

On another thread a member insisted he knew of a doctrine that Adam was created just flesh and without a spirit.

I have studied theology and this is new to me (I'm trying to reconcile exactly how those who hold this view deal with passages speaking of man's spirit).

I assume the idea comes from 1 Corinthians 15

1 Corinthians 15:45–47 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

But this is contrasting the natural with the spiritual (the life-giving Spirit) .

In Ezekiel we read that God will give man a new spirit (removing the old...implying there was a spirit in man).

So my question is for those who believe Adam was created just flesh - no spirit (or sprit/ soul for those who hold man being two parts).

What passages do you use to defend the idea?
What is the name of the doctrine?
Lastly, what denominations hold this view?

Maybe this verse will help Job 32:8 The second Adam is referring to Jesus. We have a human spirit. If we believe Jesus is the Son of God we also have the Holy Spirit. God bless!

 

[John Caldwell]

I'll be honest, I am unfamiliar with this teaching. And I've heard quite a lot of things in my time. I'd be surprised if any denomination taught this.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks. It's new to me as well, and to be fair it was another member claiming people held the belief (I have never witnessed anybody claiming it as their own).

Sometimes people get emotional and exaggerate. That could be the case. But....who knows. A bunch of people killed themselves to board that spaceship behind Hailey's commet. So stranger things can happen than my ignorance about the range of theological views.

 

[John Caldwell]

Maybe this verse will help Job 32:8 The second Adam is referring to Jesus. We have a human spirit. If we believe Jesus is the Son of God we also have the Holy Spirit. God bless!

That is my belief. Men have a human body and a human spirit.

 

[John Caldwell]

I can understand that men were not spiritually alive then spiritually died (it is appointed to man once to die and then the judgement).

And I get that Adam was not created with what we call "spiritual life" (the Spirit).

But the idea that Adam was created without a spirit, I guess a blob of flesh, seems strange to me.

I've been searching for this belief online but have not found anything yet. Actually I'm giving up. I do not believe such a doctrine exists (Genesis says God breathed into Adam and he became a living being...this is enough to show there was more than flesh).

I did find a lot about whether man is two parts or three, which is interesting. Sometimes it seems spirit and soul are used interchangably, but other times it does not.

I suspect the member ran into somebody who holds the view man is two parts - body and soul - without realizing those who hold the view equate soul to spirit.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I have always been taught and believed that when God breathed life into Adam, He was breathing a spirit into him.
I am interested in people's ideas in this thread.

 

[John Caldwell]

I have always been taught and believed that when God breathed life into Adam, He was breathing a spirit into him.
I am interested in people's ideas in this thread.

I believe so. Scripture gives the result of God breathing into Adam as Adam becoming a living soul (or being).

 

[SavedByGrace3]

That is my belief. Men have a human body and a human spirit.

My belief is that man is a soul comprised of a spirit inhabiting a body.
Paul said that the Lord would sanctify us wholly, spirit and soul and body. (1 Thess 5:23) It would appear there are three components. Hebrews 5:12 would also indicate that the soul and spirit can be divided as separate parts.
Hebrew 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[John Caldwell]

My belief is that man is a soul comprised of a spirit inhabiting a body.
Paul said that the Lord would sanctify us wholly, spirit and soul and body. (1 Thess 5:23) It would appear there are three components. Hebrews 5:12 would also indicate that the soul and spirit can be divided as separate parts.
Hebrew 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Great minds think alike .

 

[BobRyan]

On another thread a member insisted he knew of a doctrine that Adam was created just flesh and without a spirit.

I have studied theology and this is new to me (I'm trying to reconcile exactly how those who hold this view deal with passages speaking of man's spirit).

I assume the idea comes from 1 Corinthians 15

1 Corinthians 15:45–47 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

But this is contrasting the natural with the spiritual (the life-giving Spirit) .

In Ezekiel we read that God will give man a new spirit (removing the old...implying there was a spirit in man).

So my question is for those who believe Adam was created just flesh - no spirit (or sprit/ soul for those who hold man being two parts).

What passages do you use to defend the idea?
What is the name of the doctrine?
Lastly, what denominations hold this view?

The Bible speaks of "body, soul and spirit"

And in Matt 10:28 we are told that at death the body is killed but not the soul (the person). Rather the person is dormant according to Christ in John 11 and according to Paul in 1Thess 4:13.

So in Gen 2:7 man "became a living soul" -- became a living person. But at death Paul says the are "Those who have fallen asleep in Jesus" 1 Thess 4:13-18

 

[concretecamper]

On another thread a member insisted he knew of a doctrine that Adam was created just flesh and without a spirit.

if anyone is free to interpret scripture, you get all sorts of crazy ideas.

 

[John Caldwell]

if anyone is free to interpret scripture, you get all sorts of crazy ideas.

Apparently so.

And I'm a Baptist. We've got ten views for every nine people.

 

[John Caldwell]

The Bible speaks of "body, soul and spirit"

And in Matt 10:28 we are told that at death the body is killed but not the soul (the person). Rather the person is dormant according to Christ in John 11 and according to Paul in 1Thess 4:13.

So in Gen 2:7 man "became a living soul" -- became a living person. But at death Paul says the are "Those who have fallen asleep in Jesus" 1 Thess 4:13-18

I believe man is body, soul, and spirit.

Another evidence is that we are given a new spirit. I think of our soul as being who we are (so we'd be a soul with a new spirit)

 

[John Caldwell]

So how do we define the soul versus the spirit?

 

[BobRyan]

So how do we define the soul versus the spirit?

The spirit that returns to God when someone dies (whether that person is good or bad - the Bible says the death process is still the same) - is not "active" because it is not connected to a body and the soul "the person" is said in 1 Thess 4:13-18 to "sleep" in that case. So in that context the "spirit" of the person IS the person as an individual having character, memories etc -- individuality of that very same person not merely data, or a record of their thoughts and actions.

Some have suggested that the record books of heaven containing the thoughts and actions of the person are what is being "preserved" and make that a "person" that still is not killed. But that can't be true because it would mean that anyone in heaven that read the record of that person in the record book - becomes that person. Which can't be the case.

Some times this is referred to as the soul going to God. But in either case it is the same thing - it is in a sleep state.

 

[eleos1954]

On another thread a member insisted he knew of a doctrine that Adam was created just flesh and without a spirit.

I have studied theology and this is new to me (I'm trying to reconcile exactly how those who hold this view deal with passages speaking of man's spirit).

I assume the idea comes from 1 Corinthians 15

1 Corinthians 15:45–47 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

But this is contrasting the natural with the spiritual (the life-giving Spirit) .

In Ezekiel we read that God will give man a new spirit (removing the old...implying there was a spirit in man).

So my question is for those who believe Adam was created just flesh - no spirit (or sprit/ soul for those who hold man being two parts).

What passages do you use to defend the idea?
What is the name of the doctrine?
Lastly, what denominations hold this view?

In Genesis ... we were given the breath of life .... we became a living being.

A soul is not something one possesses .... we are a soul ... a living being.

Humans do not have a soul but are a soul (1 Corinthians 15:45; Genesis 2:7).

 

[BobRyan]

In Genesis ... we were given the breath of life .... we became a living being.

A soul is not something one possesses .... we are a soul ... a living being.

Humans do not have a soul but are a soul (1 Corinthians 15:45; Genesis 2:7).

Humans have a soul and yet in the Gen 2:7 sense a person is a soul. Both are true and context determines meaning.

so then
1. Matt 10:28 in this life they "kill the body but not the soul"
2. and in 2 Cor 12 -- Paul is unsure if he was taken to heaven "IN the body or out of the body".
3. and in 2 Cor 5 (and in 1 Cor 15) we find that an entirely different body is resurrected than the one we have in this life yet we are the SAME person.

None of that is possible if our only definition for the term is "this body plus breath of life" - because that means "different body + breath of life" is "different soul" and you could never have the same person resurrected. IF we just limit context to Gen 2:7 then in the resurrection they would need the exact same dust carbon-atoms etc as if your carbon atoms have your name written on them in some way. But in actual life our carbon atoms change over time as cells die and are replaced -- so we don't even have the "same carbon" as an adult as we did when we were born.

 

[eleos1954]

Humans have a soul and yet in the Gen 2:7 sense a person is a soul. Both are true and context determines meaning.

so then
1. Matt 10:28 in this life they "kill the body but not the soul"
2. and in 2 Cor 12 -- Paul is unsure if he was taken to heaven "IN the body or out of the body".
3. and in 2 Cor 5 (and in 1 Cor 15) we find that an entirely different body is resurrected than the one we have in this life yet we are the SAME person.

None of that is possible if our only definition for the term is "this body plus breath of life" - because that means "different body + breath of life" is "different soul" and you could never have the same person resurrected. IF we just limit context to Gen 2:7 then in the resurrection they would need the exact same dust carbon-atoms etc as if your carbon atoms have your name written on them in some way. But in actual life our carbon atoms change over time as cells die and are replaced -- so we don't even have the "same carbon" as an adult as we did when we were born.

We are not immortal. We do not have a "immortal soul".

We are either mortal or immortal ... can't be both. We are immortal (subject to death)

 

[BobRyan]

We are not immortal. We do not have a "immortal soul".

We are either mortal or immortal ... can't be both. We are immortal (subject to death)

True - but the Bible does not define "immortal" the way we sometimes do.

In the Bible context an immortal soul does not sleep... no soul sleep for an immortal soul.
But for mortals - the soul can go dormant. 1 Thess 4:13-18 says we sleep -- it does not say 'we cease to exist'.

John 11 Jesus said "our friend Lazarus sleeps" -- He does not say "our friend Lazarus no longer exists - I go that he may exist again".

But if we define it another way and say that if the soul exists in any form at all whether it sleeps/is dormant or not during death - then it is immortal - well than Matt 10:28 becomes a bit of a problem.

Matt 10:28 in this life they "kill the body but not the soul"