How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

[GodsGrace101]

It sounds to me like someone is not happy that God has stepped outside the box they created for Him to stay in and He is doing what He has predestined that He is going to do. It's a good thing He loves us, otherwise one might wind up like Baal's prophets in 1 Kings 18.

LOL
What box do YOU have God in?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Actually, it shows no such thing.

The fact that righteousness can be by perfect law keeping, does not mean we can keep the law perfectly, even though we are commanded to do so.

Who's talking about law keeping?
I'm talking about the covenants God made in the OT and also in the NT, which would be the New Covenant.

This has nothing to do with perfect law keeping.

God told man if he obeyed God he would be blessed
and if he did not obey God he would be cursed...
For instance in the Mosaic Covenant.

Are you saying man had NOTHING TO DO with what God told him?
You're saying God was just wasting His breath because HE was going to do it all anyway?

This would be absurd.

The true (in heart) Israelites being God's people, would be enabled by God to serve God (Philippians 2:13), they could not do it otherwise.

Every Christian I know agrees to the above.
Jesus said the comforter would come to ENABLE us, among other things.
He is our paraclete.

The issue is true Israelite or not, it is not free will or not.

Not necessarily. . .a command to choose does not imply the power to choose.

What does being a true Israelite have to do with it not being about free will?
What does one have to do with the other?

I'm discussing free will here, not who is a true Israelite, which is a different topic.

A command to obey God's law in all things does not imply the power to do so.

Agreed.
Sometimes we obey commands and sometimes we do not.
Is it OUR doing when we do NOT obey...
or is it GOD'S responsibility when we do not obey?

You have substituted man's notion of "free will"

(for the Biblical notion of God's enablement of the regenerate, Philippians 2:13) as the remedy for the unregenerate man's spiritual impotence
(Romans 3:9-12, Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14).

What is the biblical notion of free will?
Maybe you could tell me instead of sending me to 4 different verrses.
Please just state what you believe.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Ephesians 2:1-3 … nobody wants to be with Him (we were all by nature Children of Wrath).

God makes the change in us (Ephesians 2:5).

Are you calvinist in theology?

Ephesians 2:1-3
1Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins.
2You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world.a He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.
3All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.

Correct A,
By one man's sin we are all subject both to physical and spiritual death.
Our relationship with God is dead when we are born.
The reason, as stated above is due to our sin nature...a nature we all have at birth.

But let's continue...

4But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much,
5that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)

When Christ was raised from the dead, God also gave us, believers, this life by His grace,
and IN JESUS. Those in Jesus have this life.


6For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. 7So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.

And then we're told WHEN we are united with Christ...

8God saved you by his grace when you believed.

 

[Clare73]

There is no “debt” to be “paid” mentioned ANYWHERE … that is my point.

And my point is that the word "forgive" is an accounting term, meaning "to cancel a debt."

Let us take your first question and attempt the almost impossible task of answering it since
I do not believe in any “debt” to be “paid” that is not mentioned in any Biblical verse.

And therein is the problem. . ."forgiveness" is about debt cancelling.

Jesus told the parables of debt paying/cancelling for a reason (Matthew 18:23-34, Matthew 5:25-26.)

Q. How does God demonstrate his justice in Jesus' sacrifice of atonement (Romans 3:25)?

• (One sentence) Romans 3:21-26 [NASB95] But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
• δικαιοσύνη dikaiosýnē, dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay; from G1342; equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification:—righteousness.
• God displays His “righteousness” and not His “justice” … in general terms, “dikaiosýnē” reflects “the state of one who is as he ought to be”. In the specific case of Romans 3:25, God was not “wrong” to pass over sins previously committed because His “self restraint” (forbearance) looked forward to His “propitiation” [hilastḗrion: an expiatory (place or thing); an atoning victim, or (specially) the lid of the Ark (in the Temple)].

• Faith in the blood of Jesus served the same function as faith in the “mercy seat” on the Arc of the Covenant … one could throw themselves on the mercy of God and receive forgiveness from God … BECAUSE OF FAITH (and God’s character of MERCY).

Their was no "faith in the mercy seat (cover) on the Ark". . .please provide Scripture presenting such.
The mercy seat of the Ark had nothing to do with "throwing oneself on the mercy of God."
That is nowhere presented in Scripture.

The mercy seat was the cover of the Ark, which covered the testimony to their sin, placed in the Ark:
1) jar of manna - testimony to their grumbling (Exodus 16:2-4, Exodus 16:33),
2) Aaron's staff - testimony to Korah's rebellion against priesthood (Numbers 16:1-3, Numbers 17:10),
3) stone tablets - testimony to their sin in breaking the commandments (as was the Book of the Law beside the Ark, Deuteronomy 31:26).

Once again … no “debt” and no “paid” … only FAITH and MERCY made possible by the Blood of Jesus.

Contraire. . ."forgiveness" is of debt.

See Jesus parables on debt, above.

Christ the victor, not Christ the victim.

Christ the ransom, and the victor.
The atonement is both payment of debt (forgiveness) and Christus Victor.

You have not demonstrated there was no debt (Matthew 18:23-34, Matthew 5:25-26).

 

[Clare73]

Oh, just the bible

Where in the Bible do you find that "God wants us to want" and where is it presented as fundamental to salvation?

 

[Clare73]

Again 1 Timothy 2:4 per what Paul states that God desires all be saved - but you have frequently dismiss per lame excuse and to which you will be held accountable.

And where in the Bible is "God wants us to want," and where is it presented as fundamental to salvation.

 

[fhansen]

Where in the Bible do you find that "God wants us to want"?

Whenever He wants us to do. We don't do what we don't want-unless under duress, coercion, etc.

 

[Clare73]

Who's talking about law keeping?
I'm talking about the covenants God made in the OT and also in the NT, which would be the New Covenant.

This has nothing to do with perfect law keeping.

Who's not talking about the subject: ability to obey God's laws as he requires?

God told man if he obeyed God he would be blessed
and if he did not obey God he would be cursed...
For instance in the Mosaic Covenant.
Are you saying man had NOTHING TO DO with what God told him?
You're saying
God was just wasting His breath because HE was going to do it all anyway?
This would be absurd.

Only when the NT is absurd:

"No one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law.' (Romans 3:20)
"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse." (Galatians 3:10)
"A righteousness from God by faith (Romans 1:17), apart from the law, has been made known (Romans 3:20, Romans 3:28).

Every Christian I know agrees to the above.
Jesus said the comforter would come to ENABLE us, among other things.
He is our paraclete.
What does being a true Israelite have to do with it not being about free will?
What does one have to do with the other?
I'm discussing free will here, not who is a true Israelite, which is a different topic.

You're basing the ability to obey God in man's "free will,"
while Scripture denies man's ability to obey as God commands (Romans 3:20)
and bases his ability to obey God only in man's regeneration (true Israelite).

Agreed.
Sometimes we obey commands and sometimes we do not.
Is it OUR doing when we do NOT obey...
or is it GOD'S responsibility when we do not obey?

The issue there is not the choice, but the ability and inability to obey.
We are always responsible, even though we are not able (Romans 3:20).

What is the biblical notion of free will?
Maybe you could tell me instead of sending me to 4 different verrses.

Biblical free will is the power to voluntarily choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

The issue is what "one prefers."
Unregenerate man prefers his own will over God's will, and that is what he chooses.
Only regeneration changes that, giving him to prefer Gods will, which he then freely and voluntarily chooses.

 

[Clare73]

Whenever He wants us to do. We don't do what we don't want-unless under duress, coercion, etc.

So it's your personal extrapolation.

Others "extrapolate" it differently.

 

[atpollard]

Are you calvinist in theology

Particular Baptist. (Technically, there is no “Calvinist” church or theology. It is just a shorthand that means different things to different people … “Reformed” or “TULIP”.)

 

[atpollard]

And then we're told WHEN we are united with Christ...

8God saved you by his grace when you believed.

That is not an accurate translation of verse 8.

 

[atpollard]

Their was no "faith in the mercy seat (cover) on the Ark". . .please provide Scripture presenting such.
The mercy seat of the Ark had nothing to do with "throwing oneself on the mercy of God."
That is nowhere presented in Scripture.

כַּפֹּרֶת noun propitiatory, late technical word from כּפר cover over sin: the older explanation cover, lid has no justification in usage; ιλαστήριον; only P: Exodus 25:17, 18, 19, 20 (twice in verse); Exodus 25:21, 22; Exodus 26:34; Exodus 30:6; Exodus 31:7; Exodus 35:12; Exodus 37:6, 7, 8, 9 (twice in verse); Exodus 39:35; Exodus 40:20; Leviticus 16:2 (twice in verse); Leviticus 16:13, 14(twice in verse); Leviticus 16:15 (twice in verse); Numbers 7:89, and 1 Chronicles 28:11; it was a slab of gold 2 1/2 cubits x 1 1/2 cubits placed on top of the ark of the testimony. On it, and a part of it, were two golden cherubim facing each other, whose outstretched wings came together above and constituted the throne of Yahweh. When the high priest entered the Holy of Holies on the day of atonement it was necessary that this highest place of atonement should be enveloped in a cloud of incense. The blood of the sin-offering of the atonement was then sprinkled on the face of and seven times before it. The temple proper, as distinguished from porch etc., was called בֵּית הַכּ׳ 1 Chronicles 28:11.​

God has NEVER needed the blood of goats and bulls … it has ALWAYS been about FAITH. Typology and Shadows of the REALITY of Christ.

 

[GodsGrace101]

That is not an accurate translation of verse 8.

Perhaps you'd like to give us the correct translation of Ephesians 2:8?

 

[atpollard]

And my point is that the word "forgive" is an accounting term, meaning "to cancel a debt."

The word “forgive” never appears in the verse:

• (One sentence) Romans 3:21-26 [NASB95] But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

… accounting term or not.
(You are repeating the same things I was TOLD and believed, but could never find in scripture for myself when challenged to show where God said that.)

 

[GodsGrace101]

Who's not talking about the subject: ability to obey God's laws as he requires?

Excuse me Clare.
We were discussing God's COVENANTS with man....
NOT whether or not we can obey as God requires.
You're trying to change the subject.

Again:
God made BILATERAL COVENANTS WITH MAN.
This means that GOD HAD A PART
and MAN HAD A PART.

There were blessings for obedience
and curses for disobedience.

IF God was offering both blessings AND curses,
it means that HE DID NOT do all the work...
man had a part.

Man could CHOOSE to obey or not obey.
Choice denotes free will.

This is the discussion at hand.

Only when the NT is absurd:

"No one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law.' (Romans 3:20)
"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse." (Galatians 3:10)
"A righteousness from God by faith (Romans 1:17), apart from the law, has been made known (Romans 3:20, Romans 3:28).

You're basing the ability to obey God in man's "free will,"
while Scripture denies man's ability to obey as God commands (Romans 3:20)
and bases his ability to obey God only in man's regeneration (true Israelite).

The issue there is not the choice, but the ability and inability to obey.
We are always responsible, even though we are not able (Romans 3:20).

I'm not getting into the discussion of whether or not we can obey or not obey.
Both are possible AND REQUIRE FREE WILL.

I'm saying that God made an agreement with man,
and gave man THE CHOICE to obey or not obey.


And, HOW are we responsible if we are not able?
WHY would God ask us to do something He KNOWS we are unable to do?
This is a strange God indeed !

Biblical free will is the power to voluntarily choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

The issue is what "one prefers."
Unregenerate man prefers his own will over God's will, and that is what he chooses.
Only regeneration changes that, giving him to prefer Gods will, which he then freely and voluntarily chooses.

The issue is not what one prefers.
The issue is WHY does one prefer one option over another...

Because in all of Christianity, the individual person is free to make his own choice.

In reformed theology, God makes the choice for you.
He just makes you want what He wants, that's all.
Your choice is coerced by God.

 

[John Mullally]

And where in the Bible is "God wants us to want," and where is it presented as fundamental to salvation.

God wants everyone not only to be saved but to come to the knowledge of the truth. God is not playing both sides.

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

2 Corinthians 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.​

 

[fhansen]

So it's your personal extrapolation.

Others "extrapolate" it differently.

Oh, ok. From past observation I believe you "extrapolate" it pretty similar to myself...in this case anyway.

 

[John Caldwell]

I don't care to discuss free will in a philosophical manner because I don't know much about that.

When I speak of free will, it is BIBLICAL free will - which is the ability to chose between two opposing moral values, or even to chose to become saved.

I'll explain to you how I understand compatibilist free will to be:

Compatibilist free will is compatible with determination.
A calvinist will state that we have compatible free will.
But what is it?

It is a free will, something that we WANT to do,
the problem is that it is GOD making them WANT to do what GOD wants them to do.

So it's compatible in this sense...it is compatible with the deterministic will of God.
He makes you want to do what He wants you to do.

Calvinists will smooth this over as they do many concepts...
one has to look into it themselves.

I agree with your definition of free will. I also don't care about philosophy.

I am not a Calvinist. I'm a Compatibilists.

Compatibilists believe that in their hearts men plan their course, but God establishes their steps.

We can't forget the last part of that verse and be biblical.

My question to you is - do you believe that God establishes the steps of men?

 

[Clare73]

God has NEVER needed the blood of goats and bulls … it has ALWAYS been about FAITH. Typology and Shadows of the REALITY of Christ.

Does not address my post. . .

< sigh >

Again. . .faith in what?. . .blue moons? (post #1033)

Faith in his blood (Romans 3:25); i.e., in his voluntary giving up his life by the shedding of his blood under divine judgment righteously due to sinners. . .as propitiation (hilasterion, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10) through his expiatory sacrifice, because of which God shows mercy to the believer in removing his guilt (justifying, dikaioo) and remitting his sin (salvation, soteria).

It has always been about sacrifice (death) as the penalty for sin, which paying of penalty (debt) forgives/cancels the penalty/debt for those who believe in it and in his person.

Post #1084 also remains unaddressed.

 

[Clare73]

The word “forgive” never appears in the verse:

Are you saying Scripture does not present God as "forgiving" sin?

If not, then why the statement in regard to atonement?

(One sentence)

So how many times does God have to say it before it is true?

Romans 3:21-26

[NASB95] But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

(24) being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
… accounting term or not.
(You are repeating the same things I was TOLD and believed, but could never find in scripture for myself when challenged to show where God said that.)

You're going in circles. . .

I have asked you (post #1033) to exegete Romans 3:24-26, above, answering the questions I presented regarding it, which you have yet to do.