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How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

atpollard

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If you refuse to receive the present from your dad on your birthday, does that mean it wasn't a gift?
  1. If my dad leaves a bike on the porch as a gift and I CHOOSE TO NEVER TOUCH THAT BIKE then I will never have that bike and the power to “have” or “not have” that bike rests with ME and not with my dad.

  2. If I fall in a pool and start to drown and my dad reaches in and pulls my unconscious body from the pool and performs CPR to give me life … the power to “drown” or “not drown” rests with DAD and not with me.
Which scenario comes closer to describing salvation?
Is salvation a gift like the bike or a gift like being saved from drowning?
 
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zoidar

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Romans 3:10-11 [NASB95]
10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;​

Does THIS (above) mean that none want to seek God?
How about THIS (below)?

John 3:19-20 [NASB95]
19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.​
John 15:16 [NASB95]
16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.​

Which one of them do you want to discuss?
 
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zoidar

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You have as much power/choice to refuse that "gift" as you do to refuse both your natural birth and your spiritual birth (John 3:3-8).

It sounds almost like you think salvation is something that is forced upon us. Salvation is something you seek.
 
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Clare73

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It sounds almost like you think salvation is something that is forced upon us.
Salvation is something you seek.
Not everyone who is saved "sought" it.

Some are brought in who were not "seeking" it.
 
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zoidar

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  1. If my dad leaves a bike on the porch as a gift and I CHOOSE TO NEVER TOUCH THAT BIKE then I will never have that bike and the power to “have” or “not have” that bike rests with ME and not with my dad.

  2. If I fall in a pool and start to drown and my dad reaches in and pulls my unconscious body from the pool and performs CPR to give me life … the power to “drown” or “not drown” rests with DAD and not with me.
Which scenario comes closer to describing salvation?
Is salvation a gift like the bike or a gift like being saved from drowning?

I don't think any of the scenarios are quite right. Just saying, just because you can choose to say yes or no to something, doesn't make it less of a gift.
 
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zoidar

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Not everyone who is saved "sought" it.

Some are brought in who were not "seeking" it.

Maybe "seek" is the wrong word? Salvation is something you open up to, would be a better way to put it.
 
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atpollard

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I don't think any of the scenarios are quite right. Just saying, just because you can choose to say yes or no to something, doesn't make it less of a gift.
“More than Half” of the people are damned (wide road).
It is sort of a BIG DEAL if the power of salvation/damnation rests in the hands of MEN or in the hands of GOD.
 
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fhansen

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Then “SALVATION” is not a gift from God, it is a choice of men. You have chosen to place the power to make a difference (saved vs damned) in the hands of men.
Salvation is a choice of God for all men. We're the wildcard-He just wants us to want it too. He wants us to begin to love as He does, to put it another way.
 
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zoidar

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“More than Half” of the people are damned (wide road).
It is sort of a BIG DEAL if the power of salvation/damnation rests in the hands of MEN or in the hands of GOD.

Personally I think it's both in the hands of men and in the hands of God. But as you put it each of the theories have its own problems, as far as I see it anyhow.

I like the Lutheran view. If you are saved it's because of God, if you are not it's because of yourself (man).
 
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Clare73

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Salvation is a choice of God for all men. We're the wildcard-He just wants us to want it too. He wants us to begin to love as He does, to put it another way.
And you know this, how?
 
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Clare73

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Personally I think it's both in the hands of men and in the hands of God. But as you put it each of the theories have their own problem, as far as I see it anyhow.

I like the Lutheran view. If you are saved it's because of God, if you are not it's because of yourself (man).
And I like that you have a home in the Lutheran church.
 
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zoidar

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“More than Half” of the people are damned (wide road).
It is sort of a BIG DEAL if the power of salvation/damnation rests in the hands of MEN or in the hands of GOD.

Here is the Lutheran view. Check it out! Ten minutes.

 
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atpollard

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Through faith in his blood (Romans 3:25); i.e., his atoning sacrifice, which paid the debt of their sin.
There is no “debt” to be “paid” mentioned ANYWHERE … that is my point.


How does God demonstrate his justice (dikaiosune - sentence, punishment, vengeance)
in Jesus' sacrifice of atonement (Romans 3:25)?
Let us take your first question and attempt the almost impossible task of answering it since I do not believe in any “debt” to be “paid” that is not mentioned in any Biblical verse.

Q. How does God demonstrate his justice in Jesus' sacrifice of atonement (Romans 3:25)?

  • (One sentence) Romans 3:21-26 [NASB95] But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
  • δικαιοσύνη dikaiosýnē, dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay; from G1342; equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification:—righteousness.
  • God displays His “righteousness” and not His “justice” … in general terms, “dikaiosýnē” reflects “the state of one who is as he ought to be”. In the specific case of Romans 3:25, God was not “wrong” to pass over sins previously committed because His “self restraint” (forbearance) looked forward to His “propitiation” [hilastḗrion: an expiatory (place or thing); an atoning victim, or (specially) the lid of the Ark (in the Temple)].
  • Faith in the blood of Jesus served the same function as faith in the “mercy seat” on the Arc of the Covenant … one could throw themselves on the mercy of God and receive forgiveness from God … BECAUSE OF FAITH (and God’s character of MERCY).
  • Once again … no “debt” and no “paid” … only FAITH and MERCY made possible by the Blood of Jesus.
  • Christ the victor, not Christ the victim.
 
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John Mullally

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Then “SALVATION” is not a gift from God, it is a choice of men. You have chosen to place the power to make a difference (saved vs damned) in the hands of men.
You are again stating fatalism that excludes men making a conscious choice. The purpose of the Gospel message in Acts 2 was to give men a choice - Peter gives an open inventation.
 
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John Mullally

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Augustine would not agree with your "Reformed interpretation of Romans 9" statement. Arminianism didn't exist until about 1590 or thereabouts. I've read polls that show that only 10% of those who identify as being "a Christian" are biblically and in reality a genuine born again Christian.
As a born again Christian, do you mean to accept Paul's preaching that God desires all men to be saved per 1 Tinothy 2:1-6?

1 Timothyu 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​
 
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John Mullally

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And you know this, how?
Again 1 Timothy 2:4 per what Paul states that God desires all be saved - but you have frequently dismiss per lame excuse and to which you will be held accountable.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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My favorite scripture on this topic is:

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Note the order of salvation:

  1. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me
  2. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.
God manifests Himself to man, and man's response to that light will determine the destiny of that person. People's hearts are only darkened if they reject the light God gives.

Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Romans 11:9 has to be viewed in the context of:

Psa 69:21-22 They also gave me gall for my food, And for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. Let their table become a snare before them, And their well-being a trap.

There is an evil that gives rise to spiritual blindness.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Augustine would not agree with your "Reformed interpretation of Romans 9" statement. Arminianism didn't exist until about 1590 or thereabouts. I've read polls that show that only 10% of those who identify as being "a Christian" are biblically and in reality a genuine born again Christian.

But Calvinism did not exist in the Early Church (outside of the Calvinistic interpretation of Romans, and other scriptures). See quotes from the earliest church fathers.

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50
Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Irenaeus in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 [A.D. 120-202] shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God. We see this in all the Early Church Fathers.


Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat 5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk 21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk 6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk 12:45, Luk 12:46; Mat 24:48, Mat 24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co 6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe 2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph 4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph 4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co 6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)
 
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GodsGrace101

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Where did you hear that? It certainly is not true.

I am in no way saying that God causes men to act against their will.

The Compatibilists doctrine is very simple - In their hearts humans plan their course, but God establishes their steps.

If you believe that statement then you are Compatibilist.

If you reject the first part then you are an advocate for fatalism. If you reject the second part then you hold a strict free-will theology.

It can be summed up in that one sentence, no need for books getting into philosophical discussions over the will.
I don't care to discuss free will in a philosophical manner because I don't know much about that.

When I speak of free will, it is BIBLICAL free will - which is the ability to chose between two opposing moral values, or even to chose to become saved.

I'll explain to you how I understand compatibilist free will to be:

Compatibilist free will is compatible with determination.
A calvinist will state that we have compatible free will.
But what is it?

It is a free will, something that we WANT to do,
the problem is that it is GOD making them WANT to do what GOD wants them to do.

So it's compatible in this sense...it is compatible with the deterministic will of God.
He makes you want to do what He wants you to do.

Calvinists will smooth this over as they do many concepts...
one has to look into it themselves.
 
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