Embracing New Covenant Theology as Your Only Means of Salvation

[John Caldwell]

"All but one..." Now this is interesting. In your view, what are "all" the covenants?



That's two. (And I assume you mean "Jacob" rather than "Judah.") Are there any others?

Is it reasonable to say from your characterization of the "Abrahamic Covenant" as the "overarching" covenant which is "pointing to the Promise", that it encompasses the same covenant as "the New Covenant" to which you allude?



I so agree. So are we at 3 covenants so far (Abrahamic, Mosaic, New), or still only 2 (Abrahamic/New, Mosaic)?

Yes, I meant Jacob (thanks). There are more covenants (God made a covenant with Noah, for example).

I would not say the Abrahamic Covenant encompasses the New Covenant. The reason is the Abrahamic Covenant pointed to the New Covenant.

 

[Clare73]

Latter day Protestant ideologies at conflict with each other.
Suggested remedy: original orthodox Christianity.

Which in salvation/justification by faith apart from (Romans 3:28) and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9), they historically err.

 

[Jeffrey A]

I would not say the Abrahamic Covenant encompasses the New Covenant. The reason is the Abrahamic Covenant pointed to the New Covenant.

So, what covenant was Paul talking about at Galatians 3:17-18, when he writes, "The Law, which came 430 years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God... (For) God has granted (the inheritance of that covenant) to Abraham by means of a promise"?

 

[John Caldwell]

So, what covenant was Paul talking about at Galatians 3:17-18, when he writes, "The Law, which came 430 years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God... (For) God has granted (the inheritance of that covenant) to Abraham by means of a promise"?

I believe Paul was indicating that the Law (the Mosaic Covenant) does not invalidate the Abrahamic Covenant.

The Law was given to Israel through Moses. But the Abrahamic Covenant was given before Israel existed.

 

[ralliann]

You have no idea about these issues.
This is non Christian thought once again.

Care to explain in what way? Is Christ Jesus the seed of the woman or not?

 

[Jeffrey A]

There are more covenants (God made a covenant with Noah, for example).

Would you agree with this list of covenants God made with these named parties? --

Covenant with Noah - No more flood (Genesis 9:9-17)
Covenant with Abram - Give the Land (Genesis 15:7-21, Genesis 17:8-14)
Covenant with Abraham - Father of Multitude of Nations (Genesis 12:13, Genesis 17:2-7, Genesis 22:18, and Galatians 3:17-18)
Covenant with Moses - Obey the Law (Exodus 24:3-8)
Covenant with David - Son will be King (2 Samuel 7:8-16 and Jeremiah 33:17-22)
Covenant with Priests - Forever serve in Temple (Jeremiah 33:18-22)
New Covenant with Israel - Law put in their hearts (Jeremiah 31:1-40)

 

[Jeffrey A]

Latter day Protestant ideologies at conflict with each other. Suggested remedy: original orthodox Christianity.

Heal on then... What does original orthodox Christianity say are the covenants of the bible?

 

[ralliann]

I believe Paul was indicating that the Law (the Mosaic Covenant) does not invalidate the Abrahamic Covenant.

Yes, he was. The covenant/s of which the women serve as an allegory continues the seed of the woman Sarah in Genesis 17.

The Law was given to Israel through Moses.[//quote]
Which the woman Hagar is an allegory. Which did not come into force/operation until the fourth generation.

But the Abrahamic Covenant was given before Israel existed.

The covenant made in covenant 17, Was in operation, Before Moses.

 

[John Caldwell]

Would you agree with this list of covenants God made with these named parties? --

Covenant with Noah - No more flood (Genesis 9:9-17)
Covenant with Abram - Give the Land (Genesis 15:7-21, Genesis 17:8-14)
Covenant with Abraham - Father of Multitude of Nations (Genesis 12:13, Genesis 17:2-7, Genesis 22:18, and Galatians 3:17-18)
Covenant with Moses - Obey the Law (Exodus 24:3-8)
Covenant with David - Son will be King (2 Samuel 7:8-16 and Jeremiah 33:17-22)
Covenant with Priests - Forever serve in Temple (Jeremiah 33:18-22)
New Covenant with Israel - Law put in their hearts (Jeremiah 31:1-40)

I would with the covenant with Abraham and Moses. I'd have to revisit the others to see if those were given in the context of a covenant.

 

[John Caldwell]

Yes, he was. The covenant/s of which the women serve as an allegory continues the seed of the woman Sarah in Genesis 17.

Ummm. Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing?

 

[Jeffrey A]

I had quoted Galatians 3:17-18, asking, "So, what covenant was Paul talking about?"

I believe Paul was indicating that the Law (the Mosaic Covenant) does not invalidate the Abrahamic Covenant.

And, so, what is that Abrahamic Covenant referred to there by Paul? What are its promises? And to whom does it apply or pass on?

 

[ralliann]

Ummm. Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing?

It depends on which covenant you are speaking of.
Genesis 15 "Princes" or Genesis 17 "kings"
Hagar an allegory for Sinai Gen 15
Ge 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Sarah an allegory
Gen 17 For the Jerusalem above Kings
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

 

[ralliann]

Latter day Protestant ideologies at conflict with each other. Suggested remedy: original orthodox Christianity.

Certainly, there is truth to this. However, the orthodox and roman Catholic also have a schism. I am hoping some developments in Catholic-Jewish (messianic dialogue), and the interest to return to the covenant theology of the earliest Church fathers will produce some very good things. The Helsinki consultation group, includes dialogue with Messianic Jew's with the Orthodx as well.

 

[ralliann]

Would you agree with this list of covenants God made with these named parties? --

Covenant with Noah - No more flood (Genesis 9:9-17)
Covenant with Abram - Give the Land (Genesis 15:7-21, Genesis 17:8-14)
Covenant with Abraham - Father of Multitude of Nations (Genesis 12:13, Genesis 17:2-7, Genesis 22:18, and Galatians 3:17-18)
Covenant with Moses - Obey the Law (Exodus 24:3-8)
Covenant with David - Son will be King (2 Samuel 7:8-16 and Jeremiah 33:17-22)
Covenant with Priests - Forever serve in Temple (Jeremiah 33:18-22)
New Covenant with Israel - Law put in their hearts (Jeremiah 31:1-40)

where did the inheritance of the tribe of Levi come from, as an inheritance apart from as distinct from the twelve tribes of Israel?

Nu 18:20 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.

Nu 18:23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.

Nu 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

Jos 18:7 But the Levites have no part among you; for the priesthood of the LORD is their inheritance:

 

[John Caldwell]

It depends on which covenant you are speaking of.
Genesis 15 "Princes" or Genesis 17 "kings"
Hagar an allegory for Sinai Gen 15
Ge 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Sarah an allegory
Gen 17 For the Jerusalem above Kings
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

I was speaking of the Abrahamic Covenant (a formal Covenant that necessitated blood of the covenant). I didn't mean promises given, or prayers answered, but specific covenants.

 

[ralliann]

I was speaking of the Abrahamic Covenant (a formal Covenant that necessitated blood of the covenant). I didn't mean promises given, or prayers answered, but specific covenants.

The covenants speak of heirs. As the book of Hebrews speaks of will/testament, of a testator.
Ge 15:3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator

 

[ralliann]

The covenants speak of heirs. As the book of Hebrews speaks of will/testament, of a testator.

The land was inherited.

 

[John Caldwell]

The covenants speak of heirs. As the book of Hebrews speaks of will/testament, of a testator.
Ge 15:3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator

Covenants can speak of descendents, I agree.

But a promise is not necessarily a covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant required sacrifice and Covenant blood (as did the Mosaic Covenant). So did the New Covenant.

 

[ralliann]

Covenants can speak of descendents, I agree.

But a promise is not necessarily a covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant required sacrifice and Covenant blood (as did the Mosaic Covenant). So did the New Covenant.

I would put it this way. Not all covenants are an inheritance. The marriage covenant, may produce heirs/ Children quite naturally, but not an inhertance in and of itself. Abraham however has two inheritances to pass on to heirs. One is with an oath, which establishes it as immutable. Gal (i believe) speaks of the establishing of a covenant (an oath) making it unchangeable. Meaning its terms cannot be added to or taken away. As another poster spoke of "unconditional". God can and has "repented" ("conditional). The immutability of swearing an oath will not be repented of by God.
Ps 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews tells us the levitical priesthood was without an oath and can change. He can repent of it.

 

[Servus]

Which in salvation/justification by faith apart from (Romans 3:28) and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9), they historically err.

So Christianity was originally in error?

MMXX said: ↑
Latter day Protestant ideologies at conflict with each other.
Suggested remedy: original orthodox Christianity.