The A & P

[Shrewd Manager]

My brother, it is a joy seeing you again.

You've been in my prayers, FL, your grace and high spirits were sorely missed.

Every created thing (παν κτισμα). Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from κτιζω) -A.T. Robertson

The antiphonal psalmody of creation in worship and rejoicing and glorifying God in what He has done.

Now that's the makings of fear and wonder.

The Father continues to bring his cherished plan in the Son of his love to fulfillment! We who join our Older Brother in sonship, join with Him & the angelic host in proclaiming it.

"What are you, you great mountain? Because of Zerubbabel you will become a level plain! And he will bring forth the temple capstone with shoutings of 'Grace! Grace!' because of this." (Zech 4:7)

 

[FineLinen]

T

So you understand those cast to the lake of fire are in misery forever, the same duration the blessed are in bliss with God forever.

God is FIRE, that is his essence. The Lake of divinity radiating with theion & theioo, is also our wonderful Lord. There is no such thing as misery forever in our Father's world!

The whole of created life shall be delivered.

 

[FredVB]

Does that make sense?

If Christ paid our eternal debt, why wasn't his payment eternal? Where's the justice in that?
Would you rather go to hell, or to the cross?

Yes. Christ is the incarnation of God, as God, he had greater capacity, and is not limited. If we suffered To Pay for all of what Christ suffered to pay for, we would never be finished with paying. Our souls were not made by the unending Creator to come to an end, and fair justice will leave us always with the fair consequence of our wrongdoings, and only through Christ are any of us delivered from that to not continue with sin and come to blessed relationship with God we are meant for, instead of misery as result of all our sins hereafter, for the rest of ongoing existence, which Christ bore to deliver us from.

God is FIRE, that is his essence. The Lake of divinity radiating with theion & theioo, is also our wonderful Lord. There is no such thing as misery forever in our Father's world!

The whole of created life shall be delivered.

You think you just defined God's essence, but you can't really do that honestly. Fire in scripture is symbolic and it is not right to take symbols to draw absolute conclusions.

 

[FineLinen]

You think you just defined God's essence, but you can't really do that honestly. Fire in scripture is symbolic and it is not right to take symbols to draw absolute conclusions.

Our God lives quite independent of any of his created to define him. He simply moves beyond our narrow views into unlimited.

If the essence of God as Fire is "symbolic", then the other definitions of his essence must also be likewise.

God is Spirit, God is Love, God is Saviour, God is Light

 

[Saint Steven]

If we suffered To Pay for all of what Christ suffered to pay for, we would never be finished with paying.

"If"?
Isn't eternal conscious torment, "never... finished with paying" ?

 

[HSong]

"never... finished with paying"

For me, it is clear that the Lord finishes everything He starts.

Psalm NEB 138:8 The Lord will accomplish his purpose for me. Thy true love, 0 Lord, endures for ever, leave not thy work unfinished.

Saving all of creation means fufilling His plan that He set out since the very beginning.

ISAIAH 14:24-27 NIV The Lord Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand"... For the Lord Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?

 

[Saint Steven]

For me, it is clear that the Lord finishes everything He starts.

Psalm NEB 138:8 The Lord will accomplish his purpose for me. Thy true love, 0 Lord, endures for ever, leave not thy work unfinished.

Saving all of creation means fufilling His plan that He set out since the very beginning.

ISAIAH 14:24-27 NIV The Lord Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand"... For the Lord Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?

Yes. A forever burning hell is a pretty ugly loose end.

("pretty ugly" is one of my favorite oxymorons)

 

[FredVB]

Our God lives quite independent of any of his created to define him. He simply moves beyond our narrow views into unlimited.

If the essence of God as Fire is "symbolic", then the other definitions of his essence must also be likewise.

God is Spirit, God is Love, God is Saviour, God is Light

Spirit is not physically defined. Love, love that God is, that is, is not physically defined. "Savior" does not require a physical definition. And light is imagery again.

The essence of God, being the essence of necessary existence, which is boundless, eternal, and everywhere, cannot be physically defined and we don't have words for doing that, other than saying things like love are included with that, while it must be clear that it is not physical love that is meant.

It is very right that God exists quite independently of anything God created that would be thought to define God.

"If"?
Isn't eternal conscious torment, "never... finished with paying"?

You use the phrase eternal conscience torment, which I am sure I was not using for my own position. It would make this a strawman argument. What unrepentant sinners would suffer is just consequence, and as they are created souls not meant to come to an end, death with what the Bible says must mean separation, and they are not actually paying anything with that, because none of us can actually pay for any sins, and we can't do anything to make any of us right. Only Jesus Christ, who is really God, could do that, and did for those who respond with repentant faith to God's grace to them, that they are covered in Christ who bore the justice for them, which just he could do, being God. And that was a payment in that sense, which we are totally incapable of ever doing.

Yes. A forever burning hell is a pretty ugly loose end.

("pretty ugly" is one of my favorite oxymorons)

More strawman argument in response, I don't claim there is a forever burning hell. If you say I believe there is the lake of fire, yes, that is in the Bible, in the book full of imagery. Jesus called it outer darkness. So it must clearly be imagery, the words misery and forever are not imagery for something else, so those terms apply.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

More strawman argument in response, I don't claim there is a forever burning hell. If you say I believe there is the lake of fire, yes, that is in the Bible, in the book full of imagery. Jesus called it outer darkness. So it must clearly be imagery, the words misery and forever are not imagery for something else, so those terms apply.

Are you saying the lake of fire and the outer darkness are two metaphors for the same thing? Wouldn't that be putting light for dark?

 

[FredVB]

Are you saying the lake of fire and the outer darkness are two metaphors for the same thing? Wouldn't that be putting light for dark?

The lake of fire depicted in Revelation applies to the same people that the outer darkness applies to. The symbolic use of fire has no mention of light, which is a different symbol. That darkness is symbolic of what applies to the same people should have it be seen that the mention of fire could just be only symbolic, there would be intense misery, which is indicated, without it ending.

 

[Saint Steven]

... there would be intense misery, which is indicated, without it ending.

Does that seem like justice to you? Infinite (sadistic) punishment for a finite "crime".
Even sinful humans know better than that. What a horrible thing to accuse God of.
Sorry, it sickens me.

 

[Hmm]

The lake of fire depicted in Revelation applies to the same people that the outer darkness applies to. The symbolic use of fire has no mention of light, which is a different symbol. That darkness is symbolic of what applies to the same people should have it be seen that the mention of fire could just be only symbolic, there would be intense misery, which is indicated, without it ending.

That makes no sense grammatically, let alone spiritually, so your post is difficult to respond to.

 

[FredVB]

Does that seem like justice to you? Infinite (sadistic) punishment for a finite "crime".
Even sinful humans know better than that. What a horrible thing to accuse God of.
Sorry, it sickens me.

I almost wanted to report this post, which sort of is a personal attack, leading me to want to respond in kind. I just went through saying enough times that there is fairness in the judgment from God thoroughly. There just is never payment that ever makes anyone right, without Christ, period. Saying that this is not true is perverse. You can't do what only Jesus Christ could do. Saying this would be tied to denying Christ is the incarnation of God. Souls are left continuing without ever having reconciliation with God, since they avoided Christ.

That makes no sense grammatically, let alone spiritually, so your post is difficult to respond to.

It does make sense, and you can't show at all how it does not.

 

[Saint Steven]

Saint Steven said:
Does that seem like justice to you? Infinite (sadistic) punishment for a finite "crime".
Even sinful humans know better than that. What a horrible thing to accuse God of.
Sorry, it sickens me.

I almost wanted to report this post, which sort of is a personal attack, leading me to want to respond in kind. I just went through saying enough times that there is fairness in the judgment from God thoroughly. There just is never payment that ever makes anyone right, without Christ, period. Saying that this is not true is perverse. You can't do what only Jesus Christ could do. Saying this would be tied to denying Christ is the incarnation of God. Souls are left continuing without ever having reconciliation with God, since they avoided Christ.

Does little good to just shrug it off and say, "That's just the way it is. God's bigger than us, we can't stop him from doing as he pleases." One could say that same thing about a schoolyard bully. And you think I am out of line for questioning the status quo? Get a grip!

It's not our fault for the way you claim God set this whole thing up. And then for you to be appalled by anyone questioning it?

 

[FredVB]

Saint Steven said:
Does that seem like justice to you? Infinite (sadistic) punishment for a finite "crime".
Even sinful humans know better than that. What a horrible thing to accuse God of.
Sorry, it sickens me.

Does little good to just shrug it off and say, "That's just the way it is. God's bigger than us, we can't stop him from doing as he pleases." One could say that same thing about a schoolyard bully. And you think I am out of line for questioning the status quo? Get a grip!

It's not our fault for the way you claim God set this whole thing up. And then for you to be appalled by anyone questioning it?

I wonder if you really hear yourself. Do you know how you talk?

In this case I say, foremost God is fair. God is just. Judgment from God, the Maker who can do that, is fair. And God who is absolutely righteous made souls that will always continue. Souls that sin can never make themselves right. And this about God you say sickens you. Nothing was said about sadistic punishment, that was false to say. I wonder about what you think of who Christ is. Your argument is not with me, your argument is with God.

 

[Saint Steven]

Saint Steven said: ↑
Does that seem like justice to you? Infinite (sadistic) punishment for a finite "crime".
Even sinful humans know better than that. What a horrible thing to accuse God of.
Sorry, it sickens me.

Does little good to just shrug it off and say, "That's just the way it is. God's bigger than us, we can't stop him from doing as he pleases." One could say that same thing about a schoolyard bully. And you think I am out of line for questioning the status quo? Get a grip!

It's not our fault for the way you claim God set this whole thing up. And then for you to be appalled by anyone questioning it?

I wonder if you really hear yourself. Do you know how you talk?

I'm interested in your perspective about how I talk. (post)
If I could improve the level of communication, that would be good.
(assuming your comment points toward a need for improvement?)
But be gentle, I can dish it out, but I can't take it. - LOL

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm nowhere near the brightest of the bright, but I"m pretty sure you have taken that scripture out of context.

Tell me plainly, why God would save those who have refused His call.

Amen

““Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭13‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm very familiar with Rom. 8. It doesn't say all of mankind will be saved nor does it even hint of it.

FL you have a bad habit of taking scripture out of context without explanation!

Well in his defense he does typically provide explanation it’s just not biblical.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Saint Steven said: ↑
Does that seem like justice to you? Infinite (sadistic) punishment for a finite "crime".
Even sinful humans know better than that. What a horrible thing to accuse God of.
Sorry, it sickens me.

Does little good to just shrug it off and say, "That's just the way it is. God's bigger than us, we can't stop him from doing as he pleases." One could say that same thing about a schoolyard bully. And you think I am out of line for questioning the status quo? Get a grip!

It's not our fault for the way you claim God set this whole thing up. And then for you to be appalled by anyone questioning it?

I'm interested in your perspective about how I talk. (post)
If I could improve the level of communication, that would be good.
(assuming your comment points toward a need for improvement?)
But be gentle, I can dish it out, but I can't take it. - LOL

That’s the biggest problem with universalism, it’s based on what people think God’s punishment should be rather than what the scriptures actually tell us that it will be. It’s based on human sentiment not scripture.

 

[public hermit]

In this case I say, foremost God is fair.

It might help if you define what you mean by fair?

You seem to be thinking of fairness in terms of what one deserves. Accordingly, we all come into this world enslaved to sin. How do we deserve damnation when we had no choice but to sin? Somehow, you think those who accept Christ are treated fairly by receiving salvation, as if they deserve it for their faith. And, those who reject Christ are deservedly damned. Is that really fair? What about those who never heard? How are they getting what they deserve? I have lots of question if by fairness you mean just deserts.

Fairness settles the balance so all have an equal share, i.e., equity. If God were fair, God would distribute grace or damnation equally. The only fair doctrine, then, is UR; the others make God unjust, i.e., unfair.