Praying to the saints

[Xeno.of.athens]

One thing you have not addressed:
All Christians are saints .

One thing you have not addressed:

Some Christians are in heaven.​

 

[Zachm531]

Thank you ! Interesting read! However, there is no solid biblical passage that teaches or encourages a Christian to pray to dead loved ones.

One thing you have not addressed:
All Christians are saints .

That being said , I could make my dead mother my intercesor but that would just not be appropriate.
Blessings.

If you are confident that she is in Heaven then you could surely ask for her intercession.
This is why the Catholic church has a strict canonization process which includes proof of miracles performed, a holy lifestyle etc. to be recognized on a universal level as someone in Heaven.
In churches(especially in the east) there are parishes that ask the intercession of deceased local friends/relatives that lived holy/saintly lives. Even if they are not recognized universally.

To your objection you said “there is no solid biblical passage that teaches or encourages a Christian to pray to dead loved ones.”

If you are looking for a passage that says “Pray to saints” or anything specific like that, to be consistent, you will argue your way out of Christianity.
The Bible never explicitly says or teaches:
1. The Trinity

2. Baptism by immersion

3. Number of sprinkles, pours, immersions

4. Prayer to the Holy Ghost

5. Going to church on Wednesday/Sunday

6. A pastor getting on a stage and preaching his interpretation

7. The canon of scripture

8. Scripture alone as the infallible rule of faith

9. Jesus as fully God and fully man. Hypostatic union

10. Christins being military/police

11. Self defense

12. Type of bread used in communion: leavened/ unleavened/ cracker. Type of drink used: real wine, juice

13. Liturgical vs. contemporary service

14.Polygamy vs. monogamy

15. Can christians drink beer?

16. Jesus bearing Gods wrath on the cross

There are many things not explicitly defined or taught in scripture. Be consistent.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
I also pray for others (since the Bible tells us to do that). But even the Catholic church rejects the idea of "praying to others" if they are not dead.

Sir, your objection is faulty, and are trying to present a quick “gotcha” refutation.

When we “pray to saints/ask for their intercession” in Heaven, we recognize that their only role/response is to pray to God on our behalf.

You do not appear to understand my response. I was not addressing the idea of praying to the dead in heaven -- I was addressing the added posting about praying to the living on Earth and noting that even the Catholic Church does not allow that.

On earth when we pray to /ask other believers to pray for us,

Asking a fellow church member to pray for you is not an activity unique to Catholics and is not at all what the Catholic Church means in its section on "Communion with the dead".

My point is that it does not help your case to conflate the two ideas.

 

[BobRyan]

This is why the Catholic church has a strict canonization process which includes proof of miracles performed, a holy lifestyle etc.

Not sure why that is needed since all the Catholic church is asking for in its "communion with the dead" teaching - is that the person be dead and not in hell.

Or are you saying that the person must also be doing miracles before one is allowed to pray to them??

 

[The Liturgist]

I like to invoke the saints in prayer.

Me too. Especially our Most Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary.

Among Roman Catholic liturgy, I particularly like the Litany of Loretto, which is essentially a listing of the names of saints followed by “ora pro nobis.” It is a beautiful litany that has the sense of calling upon the Church Triumphant to come to the aid of the Church Militant.

 

[The Liturgist]

I think I would say, 'I pray with the saints' and by that, I would include the saints both living and departed.

Splendid!

 

[RileyG]

Me too. Especially our Most Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary.

Among Roman Catholic liturgy, I particularly like the Litany of Loretto, which is essentially a listing of the names of saints followed by “ora pro nobis.” It is a beautiful litany that has the sense of calling upon the Church Triumphant to come to the aid of the Church Militant.

Amen.

 

[RileyG]

Not sure why that is needed since all the Catholic church is asking for in its "communion with the dead" teaching - is that the person be dead and not in hell.

Or are you saying that the person must also be doing miracles before one is allowed to pray to them??

Privately, we can ask for their intercession. Yes. I can ask my deceased grandparents to pray for me, but it won't ever be done in liturgies etc

 

[RileyG]

Thank you ! Interesting read! However, there is no solid biblical passage that teaches or encourages a Christian to pray to dead loved ones.

One thing you have not addressed:
All Christians are saints .

That being said , I could make my dead mother my intercesor but that would just not be appropriate.
Blessings.

Our God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

May God grant your mother eternal rest and peace.

Peace

 

[The Liturgist]

Privately, we can ask for their intercession. Yes. I can ask my deceased grandparents to pray for me, but it won't ever be done in liturgies etc

They could be canonized (or as we say in Orthodoxy, glorified). Also in the Byzantine Divine Liturgy, and services modeled on it like the Armenian Soorp Badarak, the petition in the Litany of Peace and the Little Litany “Especially our Glorious Lady Theotokos and All The Saints” and related prayers, basically, any prayer in any liturgical rite that uses the phrase “All the Saints,” which I believe would include propers for All Saints Day in both the Byzantine and Latin Rites, would include anyone in the Church Triumphant.

 

[Jipsah]

Me too. Especially our Most Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary. Among Roman Catholic liturgy, I particularly like the Litany of Loretto, which is essentially a listing of the names of saints followed by “ora pro nobis.” It is a beautiful litany that has the sense of calling upon the Church Triumphant to come to the aid of the Church Militant.

 

[Jipsah]

You do not appear to understand my response. I was not addressing the idea of praying to the dead in heaven

Good, because that would be silly. If they're in Heaven, they're not dead.

I was addressing the added posting about praying to the living on Earth and noting that even the Catholic Church does not allow that.

Deoends on what you call "praying". We may most certainly ask both the saints in Heaven and the saints on earth to pray for us. Why would we not?

Asking a fellow church member to pray for you is not an activity unique to Catholics and is not at all what the Catholic Church means in its section on "Communion with the dead".

You'll have to explain how you arriveda t that conclusion.

My point is that it does not help your case to conflate the two ideas.

Personally I doubt that your opinion of what the Catholics teach is either unprejudiced or accurate.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Privately, we can ask for their intercession. Yes. I can ask my deceased grandparents to pray for me, but it won't ever be done in liturgies etc

In the liturgy, as part of the canon of the mass (I think*) there's a prayer to all the angels and saints. And before mass one of the prayers in the missal is this:

Angels, Archangels, Thrones, Dominations, Principalities, Powers, celestial Virtues, Cherubim and Seraphim; all Saints of God, holy men and women, and you especially, my patrons: deign to plead for me that I may have grace to offer worthily this sacrifice to almighty God, to the praise and glory of His Name, for my own welfare also and that of all His holy Church.
Amen.​

It is a joy for me, to invoke the saints.

* In the Preface, "the Church gives thanks to the Father, through Christ, in the Holy Spirit, for all his works: creation, redemption, and sanctification. The whole community thus joins in the unending praise that the Church in heaven, the angels and all the saints, sing to the thrice-holy God."

 

[Jipsah]

Not sure why that is needed since all the Catholic church is asking for in its "communion with the dead" teaching - is that the person be dead and not in hell.

It acts as prima facie evidence that the person in question is alive and in Heaven, and thus able to pray for us. Please, don't be intentionally obtuse.

Or are you saying that the person must also be doing miracles before one is allowed to pray to them??

If they are then it's a pretty serious blow to SDA eschatology, innit? As I understand it, you don't believe that any of the saints is alive and in Heaven, isn't that right?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If they are then it's a pretty serious blow to SDA eschatology, innit? As I understand it, you don't believe that any of the saints is alive and in Heaven, isn't that right?

I think that is right.

SDA individual eschatology is based on

"human being" = "mind&body + spirit"; mind & body being matter, and spirit being breath. *
​

* SDA fundamental beliefs number seven

7. The Nature of Man:

Man and woman were made in the image of God with individuality, the power and freedom to think and to do. Though created free beings, each is an indivisible unity of body, mind, and spirit, dependent upon God for life and breath and all else. When our first parents disobeyed God, they denied their dependence upon Him and fell from their high position under God. The image of God in them was marred and they became subject to death. Their descendants share this fallen nature and its consequences. They are born with weaknesses and tendencies to evil. But God in Christ reconciled the world to Himself and by His Spirit restores in penitent mortals the image of their Maker. Created for the glory of God, they are called to love Him and one another, and to care for their environment. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:7; Ps. 8:4-8; Acts 17:24-28; Gen. 3; Ps. 51:5; Rom. 5:12-17; 2 Cor. 5:19, 20; Ps. 51:10; 1 John 4:7, 8, 11, 20; Gen. 2:15.)​

remembering your earlier speculation about a Catholic returning the favour; typed in full knowledge of the irony, and with considerable humour.

 

[BobRyan]

Catholic Catechism -

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

962 "We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (Paul VI, CPG § 30).

So yes - you can ask whatever you wish but you are not supposed to pray to the living according to the catholic church.

Good, because that would be silly. If they're in Heaven, they're not dead.

Catholic church is the one calling it "communion with the dead" when praying to the dead in heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

Asking a fellow church member to pray for you is not an activity unique to Catholics and is not at all what the Catholic Church means in its section on "Communion with the dead".

You'll have to explain how you arrived at that conclusion.

I read their statement below.

Catholic Catechism -

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

962 "We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (Paul VI, CPG § 30).

So yes - you can ask whatever you wish but you are not supposed to pray to the living according to the catholic church.

I "notice" when they say this does not work in the case of the living

From: Why Do Catholics Pray to Saints?
“No Contact with the dead”

Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is the necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. “There shall not be found among you any one who . . . practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed” (Deut. 18:10–15).

God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus, one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, “Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now.”

Praying to Saints: Overlooking the Obvious

Some objections to the concept of prayer to the saints betray restricted notions of heaven. One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner:

“How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different languages, all at the same time?

“Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being. . . . The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing at a time.

“How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts?” (Roman Catholicism, 142-143).

If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.​

.

 

[BobRyan]

Or are you saying that the (Catholics claim that) a person must also be doing miracles before one is allowed to pray to them??

If they are then it's a pretty serious blow to SDA eschatology, innit?

No because the Catholic church is free to say whatever it wishes. We don't claim that what they say they want is somehow a blow to any other denomination's eschalotogy. I takes more than saying you 'want' something to get to that end result. As we all know.

 

[BobRyan]

* SDA fundamental beliefs number seven

7. The Nature of Man:

Man and woman were made in the image of God with individuality, the power and freedom to think and to do. Though created free beings, each is an indivisible unity of body, mind, and spirit, dependent upon God for life and breath and all else. When our first parents disobeyed God, they denied their dependence upon Him and fell from their high position under God. The image of God in them was marred and they became subject to death. Their descendants share this fallen nature and its consequences. They are born with weaknesses and tendencies to evil. But God in Christ reconciled the world to Himself and by His Spirit restores in penitent mortals the image of their Maker. Created for the glory of God, they are called to love Him and one another, and to care for their environment. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:7; Ps. 8:4-8; Acts 17:24-28; Gen. 3; Ps. 51:5; Rom. 5:12-17; 2 Cor. 5:19, 20; Ps. 51:10; 1 John 4:7, 8, 11, 20; Gen. 2:15.)​

speculation about a Catholic returning the favour; .

I am not objecting to that...

Adventists teach soul sleep - that the body goes to the dust and death and the soul/spirit goes to God in the same dormant "sleep" state that we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and John 11.

26) Death and Resurrection
The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Job 19:25-27; Ps. 146:3, 4; Eccl. 9:5, 6, 10; Dan. 12:2, 13; Isa. 25:8; John 5:28, 29; 11:11-14; Rom. 6:23; 6:16; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 20:1-10.)​

John 11:11 This He said, and after this He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going so that I may awaken him from sleep.” 12 The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will come out of it.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about literal sleep. 14 So Jesus then said to them plainly "Lazarus is dead",

 

[BobRyan]

As I understand it, you don't believe that any of the saints is alive and in Heaven, isn't that right?

No that is not right.

In Matt 17 Moses and Elijah both stand with Christ in glory on the mount of transfiguration - before the cross event even happens.

In Eph 4 we see that Christ takes those resurrected in Matt 27 to heaven at His resurrection.

The difference is not that we don't think any saints are alive in heaven - the difference is the "dormant" Sleep state that we see for saints who are dead (communion with the dead -- as the Catholic documents refer to it) - as seen in 1 Thess 4:13-18 - they are dormant in that state if not resurrected just as 1 Thess 4 states.