How can there be free will in heaven?

[timothyu]

It's more just that cats don't understand that they did anything wrong.

They may not know it is wrong but they are open to what we consider is right. Man is not so open to what God considers right.

 

[Hawkins]

What is stopping another fall?

Wrong premise. Whoever would cause a fall has been stopped in the first earth stage by a foreknowing God.

To go into the details. A fall is basically casued by the much more intelligent bad angelic beings influencing the less intelligent humans as told by the Eden story. Once the 1/3 bad angels are removed by the Final Judgment of Law, no more such influence exists in Heaven while God's sheep will follow God's will under the circumstance.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Wrong premise. Whoever would cause a fall has been stopped in the first earth stage by a foreknowing God.

To go into the details. A fall is basically casued by the much more intelligent bad angelic beings influencing the less intelligent humans as told by the Eden story. Once the 1/3 bad angels are removed by the Final Judgment of Law, no more such influence exists in Heaven while God's sheep will follow God's will under the circumstance.

I keep encountering this idea that 1/3 of the angels are bad. Where do you come up with this ratio?

 

[Hawkins]

I keep encountering this idea that 1/3 of the angels are bad. Where do you come up with this ratio?

It is rather a consensus delivered from the book of Revlation. No one can confirm with 100% certainty however we can make sense out of such a premise.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It is rather a consensus delivered from the book of Revlation. No one can confirm with 100% certainty however we can make sense out of such a premise.

Thank you. I think this is the verse you are referring to -

Revelation 12:4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.

There is no mention whatsoever of angels, nor do I find correlation between stars and angels anywhere else in the Bible.

 

[Hawkins]

Thank you. I think this is the verse you are referring to -

Revelation 12:4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.

There is no mention whatsoever of angels, nor do I find correlation between stars and angels anywhere else in the Bible.

The book of Revelation is a special book that no humans can claim to understand it with certainty. However it by no means says that we can't make sense out of the verses. In fact, the normal use of the book is to try to make sense out of the verses.

To me, it can be a book defining stuff not mentioned in other parts of the Bible, as the main point of other parts of the NT Bible is to serve the purpose of preaching the gospel. That actually leaves the book of Revelation as a source of critical concepts to be revealed. The 1/3 fallen angels actually even make mathematical sense behind the scene of what's going on.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The book of Revelation is a special book that no humans can claim to understand it with certainty. However it by no means says that we can't make sense out of the verses. In fact, the normal use of the book is to try to make sense out of the verses.

I agree. Hence, it is called the book of the Revelation (revealing). That said, it is an extremely problematic book to understand and interpret with a huge number of highly conflicting interpretations having been produced. It is impossible to understand literally. For example, of 1/3 of all of the stars of the universe will be literally cast to the earth, then most of the laws of astrophysics will be completely violated and the earth, which is, relatively speaking, incredibly miniscule compared to the mass of the average star, would be subsumed completely.

In regard to the topic of this thread, Revelation tends toward the concept of God reigning in heaven and receiving the adulation of all created beings in heaven. There is virtually no indication of the exercise of "free" will.

 

[Hawkins]

I agree. Hence, it is called the book of the Revelation (revealing). That said, it is an extremely problematic book to understand and interpret with a huge number of highly conflicting interpretations having been produced. It is impossible to understand literally. For example, of 1/3 of all of the stars of the universe will be literally cast to the earth, then most of the laws of astrophysics will be completely violated and the earth, which is, relatively speaking, incredibly miniscule compared to the mass of the average star, would be subsumed completely.

In regard to the topic of this thread, Revelation tends toward the concept of God reigning in heaven and receiving the adulation of all created beings in heaven. There is virtually no indication of the exercise of "free" will.

To me, the 1/3 figure is tied to a mathematical model of what's going on. Of course, you may choose the neglect as no one actually can confirm it.

By the degree of free will granted to the angels, 1/3 of them will fall at the end. It's more or less an expected outcome (in terms of mathematical statistics and probabilites) of a normal distribution of angelic behavior vs. the definition of Law. Naturally, as humans are granted with a larger degree of free will, the mathematical outcome is that less than 1/3 humans can be saved in the end. That's the mathematical representation of "we are saved through the narrow gate".

Yet another factor jammed in, "1/3 humans saved" is only under the circumstance that humans and angels have no interaction and influence. When the interaction of the more intelligent angels are taken into account, the number dropped to 0 humans can be saved. Satan and his angels (they are much more intelligent than humans), by their free will, will make sure that all humans will fall, that ties to the concept of total depravity.

That is, without interaction between angels and humans,
- 2/3 angels can pass the judgment of Law to enter Heaven
- less than 1/3 humans can pass the judgment of Law to Heaven

Then with interaction,
- 2/3 angels can pass the judgment of Law to enter Heaven
- 0 human can pass the judgment of law to enter Heaven

With Jesus then,
- 2/3 angels can pass the judgment of Law to enter Heaven
- 0 humans can pass the judgment of Law to enter Heaven, however less than 1/3 humans can pass the judgment of Covenant to enter Heaven (as God's Grace through Jesus Christ, through the same narrow gate though).

I believe that this is rather the mathematical model behind the scene, based on the "1/3" figure ("1/3 angel" is not my invention but rather a widely spread conception) hinted in the book of Revelation.

 

[bbbbbbb]

To me, the 1/3 figure is tied to a mathematical model of what's going on. Of course, you may choose the neglect as no one actually can confirm it.

By the degree of free will granted to the angels, 1/3 of them will fall at the end. It's more or less an expected outcome (in terms of mathematical statistics and probabilites) of a normal distribution of angelic behavior vs. the definition of Law. Naturally, as humans are granted with a larger degree of free will, the mathematical outcome is that less than 1/3 humans can be saved in the end. That's the mathematical representation of "we are saved through the narrow gate".

Yet another factor jammed in, "1/3 humans saved" is only under the circumstance that humans and angels have no interaction and influence. When the interaction of the more intelligent angels are taken into account, the number dropped to 0 humans can be saved. Satan and his angels (they are much more intelligent than humans), by their free will, will make sure that all humans will fall, that ties to the concept of total depravity.

That is, without interaction between angels and humans,
- 2/3 angels can pass the judgment of Law to enter Heaven
- less than 1/3 humans can pass the judgment of Law to Heaven

Then with interaction,
- 2/3 angels can pass the judgment of Law to enter Heaven
- 0 human can pass the judgment of law to enter Heaven

With Jesus then,
- 2/3 angels can pass the judgment of Law to enter Heaven
- 0 humans can pass the judgment of Law to enter Heaven, however less than 1/3 humans can pass the judgment of Covenant to enter Heaven (as God's Grace through Jesus Christ).

I believe that this is rather the mathematical model behind the scene, based on the "1/3" hint mentioned in the book of Revelation.

Thanks. I have not encountered this view. Sometimes I think I have heard everything, and then discover that my knowledge is exceedingly limited.

1/3 of humanity being saved seems to be exceedingly optimistic. If one believes, as the Bible clearly states, that only those people who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved, then even as I write this there are hundreds of millions of people alive who have never heard the name of Jesus Christ, much less had any opportunity to believe in Him. Just on that fact alone, 1/3 of humanity could not be saved.

There is also an interesting proposition I once ran across. Jesus said that the last days will be like the days of Noah. At that time the earth was fully populated, but God saved only eight people. If the analogy is accurate, then at the end of the age only eight humans will be saved.

Of course, that does seem extremely pessimistic, especially in relation to the multitudes described in Revelation.

 

[Hawkins]

1/3 of humanity being saved seems to be exceedingly optimistic.

Yes. Mathematically speaking how much "less than 1/3" will at least depend on 1) how larger the degree of free will granted, and 2) how normal the behavior distribution is for both angels and humans. So mathematically "much less than 1/3" can happen as one of the probabilities. On the other hand, "God wishes all are saved" also make mathematical sense as that represents another probability (a much much less probability though). At the end, the "1/3 or less than 1/3" figure is the mathematical expected outcome on a normal distribution of human behavior. Perhaps a math expert can explain better than I do.

 

[timothyu]

Whoever would cause a fall has been stopped in the first earth stage by a foreknowing God.

Yes. We are prone to putting our will ahead of the will of God. The Tempter was created by God to tempt that very weakness. In a new Kingdom with no Tempter and only inhabitants who prefer to put God's will first, any misdirection would be limited and handled quite efficiently by Jesus who would be the intimate psychologist/social worker.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes. Mathematically speaking how much "less than 1/3" will at least depend on 1) how larger the degree of free will granted, and 2) how normal the behavior distribution is for both angels and humans. So mathematically "much less than 1/3" can happen as one of the probabilities. On the other hand, "God wishes all are saved" also make mathematical sense as that represents another probability (a much much less probability though). At the end, the "1/3 or less than 1/3" figure is the mathematical expected outcome on a normal distribution of human behavior. Perhaps a math expert can explain better than I do.

I am not at all certain that 1/3 is the mathematical expected outcome on a normal distribution of human behavior. I can say with absolute certainty that 100% is the precise outcome of a normal distribution of human behavior regarding sin and, moreover, that 100% of all humans die.

 

[Jamdoc]

They may not know it is wrong but they are open to what we consider is right. Man is not so open to what God considers right.

No.. cats will do what is right in their own eyes and then just .. not care what you think about it.

if a dog knocks something off a counter and it breaks, they'll come to you looking guilty and apologetic. Dogs repent lol.
Cats do that on purpose and look at the broken glass on the ground and think "not my problem"

 

[bbbbbbb]

No.. cats will do what is right in their own eyes and then just .. not care what you think about it.

if a dog knocks something off a counter and it breaks, they'll come to you looking guilty and apologetic. Dogs repent lol.
Cats do that on purpose and look at the broken glass on the ground and think "not my problem"

Yes, cats are not funny-looking dogs. They are both very different species with very different wiring in their brains.

 

[timothyu]

No.. cats will do what is right in their own eyes and then just .. not care what you think about it.

Not mine. But of course most people don't 'tame' them soon enough. It's like a child. If they don't learn from parents and peers the limits one should have in behaviour by five, they will remain part feral all their lives.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Not mine. But of course most people don't 'tame' them soon enough. It's like a child. If they don't learn from parents and peers the limits one should have in behaviour by five, they will remain part feral all their lives.

All animate beings can be trained to one extent or another, but some species are much more amenable to training by humans than others. Likewise, some humans respond better than others to limitations on their behavior.

 

[Jamdoc]

Not mine. But of course most people don't 'tame' them soon enough. It's like a child. If they don't learn from parents and peers the limits one should have in behaviour by five, they will remain part feral all their lives.

Tame or not you can't really use positive incentive to train a cat NOT to do something natural for it (knocking things off of surfaces that are off the ground) you can only try to negatively reinforce the behavior through punishment.. and frankly the cat doesn't connect the punishment to the behavior, the cat just thinks you're being a jerk

 

[bbbbbbb]

Tame or not you can't really use positive incentive to train a cat NOT to do something natural for it (knocking things off of surfaces that are off the ground) you can only try to negatively reinforce the behavior through punishment.. and frankly the cat doesn't connect the punishment to the behavior, the cat just thinks you're being a jerk

Speaking from personal experience, most cats are like that, but there are exceptions. There seem to be various personalities in cats especially in certain breeds of cats, as well as differing levels of intelligence. I have met my share of really stupid cats.

 

[timothyu]

you can't really use positive incentive to train a cat NOT to do something natural for it (knocking things off of surfaces that are off the ground) you can only try to negatively reinforce the behavior through punishment.

I disagree

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Free will does not exist.
Not here, not there,not anywhere.