Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

[SabbathBlessings]

Regarding Jesus, we should remember that he was born under the Law (Gal 4:4); so, yes, he kept the Law of Moses perfectly -- something that none of us can do.

Do you apply this to thou shalt not worship other gods, or thou shalt not murder, or only the 4th commandment?

The Ten Commandments are different than the law of Moses and these are the only commandments inside the ark, the only commandments written by the finger of God, placed in the Most Holy in God's temple which is also revealed in heaven. Revelation 11:19

Is it okay to worship other gods or murder? If the answer is no, keeping the Sabbath is no different than the other 9 commandments. James 2:10-12

While we are not able to keep the commandments on our own, we can through Jesus Christ who gives us the Holy Spirit which enables us to obey John 14:15-18, Act 5:32. If you think the devil is stronger to keep us in sin than Jesus is to keep us from sin, than what is really being said is the devil is stronger than God, which is not something I choose to believe.

But in addition to this, when Jesus entered this dark, forlorn world he walked the fine line between two distinct ages or "ethos", if you will. His entrance into this world, or perhaps even more specifically and accurately his redemptive work on the Cross marked the beginning of the end of one age (Old Covenant Judaism under the Law of Moses) and the beginning of a new one (God's New Creation under the New Covenant.) This beginning of the end of the old and the beginning of the other occurred at Jesus's death when that very thick, heavy curtain that separated the holy of holies from the holy place was rent in two from top to bottom (Mat 27.51). The full termination of the Old Covenant age occurred, of course, in 70 A.D. when Rome destroyed the epicenter of Judaism -- the temple.
.

Jesus did not sacrifice Himself so we could live in sin. When Jesus healed, He said go sin no more, not go and continue sinning. You did not quote scripture that says we are free to sin and now can worship other gods, bow to images, vain His holy name or break His holy Sabbath day. Instead, the saints keep the commandments of God until the very end. Revelation 14:12 I am pretty sure the saints are the saved ones and not the lost.

I say this to try to impress upon you that this transition period from the old age to the new was a once-in-a-lifetime, unique, non-repeatable time in human and church history, and it was also the time of the apostolic age. The apostles lived during this very unique time in history - a period of change and continuity from the old to the new. We should remember that not everything carries over from the Old Covenant era to the New. Even Jesus spoke to this fact (Mat 9:16-17). To mix the old with the new can have disastrous effects! For example, let me repeat a question I asked yesterday: If the 4th commandment under the Law of Moses is still binding upon us, would that not mean that the prescribed penalty under said Law for violation of that commandment (capital punishment!) also equally applies to the Church today? If not, why not!? .

I am more concerned about the words of scripture, obviously not all of the law of Moses has ended, and I think you misunderstand the role of the New Covenant, where God writes His laws in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant Hebrews 8:10 instead of deleting them.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Your cites of various passages in Acts above does not prove that the 4th commandment is binding upon New Covenant believers. All it proves is that Paul had a burden for the salvation of his brothers according to the flesh, and that he wisely visited them where those unbelieving Jews worshiped every week for the purpose of preaching the gospel to them. What better place and time could Paul have gone to to preach the Messiah to a large audience of Jews and proselytes?

You have provided no scripture that says we are free to break the commandments of God, which of course includes the 4th commandment that was written by the finger of God. You appear to be following the traditions of man instead of following the instructions of Jesus and Paul.

but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Cor 7:19


Matthew 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

Jesus seems to think we should keep the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten Commandments over following the traditions of man. The Sabbath is a commandment of God and if one is not interested in keeping the Sabbath holy now, do you think God is going to be okay keeping 9 of the Ten commandments in heaven Revelation 11:19 and will be okay for those who oppose to pass on worshipping the Lord on the Sabbath? Isaiah 66:22-23. Thats our free-will test, but Jesus said we need to keep the least of the commandments Matthew 5:19 and the commandment that is holy and blessed by God and is the holy day of our Lord thy God in His own Words Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13, Genesis 2:1-3, is far from the least.

 

[Doran]

Just curious why you are singling out just the Sabbath commandment, when scripture tells us idolators, those who are rebellious from their parents, those who commit adultery and other violations of the moral code were also put to death. Deuteronomy 13:6, 10; 21:18, 21; 22: 21-28, and all of Leviticus 20.

The penalty for sin is still death, but instead of God directing the punishment at that time in the OC, now sinners will be dealt with at the last day. Hebrews 10:26-30

I believe I have answered your above question in my post I just sent up a few minutes ago about how there is CHANGE AND CONTINUITY between the Old and New Covenants. The NT epistles prescribe no temporal punishments for the breaking of any commandments, so this makes my point. But what makes the 4th commandment, specifcially, different from the other 9 is that it is a ceremonial law -- a law that was given as a sign to the Jews of their participation in the Mosaic Covenant. In principle, the 4th commandment is no different than the ceremonial ritual of circumcision which was a sign of the Abrahamic Covenant.

More solid proof that the sabbath law was ceremonial in nature can be found in this passage:

Col 2:16-18
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
NIV

Everything Paul speaks of in this text is ceremonial/ritualistic in nature! Food, drinks, religious festivals, new moons, sabbath days... And ALL of those were merely foreshadows of the ultimate, eternal spiritual reality which is Christ! Christ is our ultimate, eternal spiritual rest. All these shadows passed away at the Cross only finally and in their entirety in 70 A.D.

Since ALL the ceremonial, ritualistic laws under the Mosaic Covenant have been abrogated because Christ has fulfilled them, then so, too, has the sabbath.


The Ten Commandments just points out sin so we know what not to break. 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7. The commandments are a unit of Ten, not one or nine, so they cannot be separated as God placed them together written by His own finger on stone. Exodus 31:18 and if we break of one these commandments we break them all James 2:10-12

We have a very merciful Savior who longs for to obey Him and turn from sin, and though Him, He gives us a new heart and we can ask for forgiveness and turn from sin and walk in newness of Christ in obedience to His commandments and He gives us His Spirit to help us obey John 14:15-18 Acts 5:32 and through Him we can gain victory over sin.[/QUOTE]

 

[Doran]

Hi Doran,

Could you supply texts for each of these nine commandments which are supposedly repeated in the New Testament? Thanks!





Let's define terms. Could you tell me what you believe a covenant is and what specifically the Old Covenant is? Thanks!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

See SB's recent post in which he gave cites for all ten commandments being repeated in the NT. However, his interpretation is way off on Hebrews 4 with respect to the 4th commandment -- but on the other ones, he's on the money <g>.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I believe I have answered your above question in my post I just sent up a few minutes ago about how there is CHANGE AND CONTINUITY between the Old and New Covenants. The NT epistles prescribe no temporal punishments for the breaking of any commandments, so this makes my point. But what makes the 4th commandment, specifcially, different from the other 9 is that it is a ceremonial law -- a law that was given as a sign to the Jews of their participation in the Mosaic Covenant. In principle, the 4th commandment is no different than the ceremonial ritual of circumcision which was a sign of the Abrahamic Covenant.

More solid proof that the sabbath law was ceremonial in nature can be found in this passage:

Col 2:16-18
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
NIV

Everything Paul speaks of in this text is ceremonial/ritualistic in nature! Food, drinks, religious festivals, new moons, sabbath days... And ALL of those were merely foreshadows of the ultimate, eternal spiritual reality which is Christ! Christ is our ultimate, eternal spiritual rest. All these shadows passed away at the Cross only finally and in their entirety in 70 A.D.

Since ALL the ceremonial, ritualistic laws under the Mosaic Covenant have been abrogated because Christ has fulfilled them, then so, too, has the sabbath.


The Ten Commandments just points out sin so we know what not to break. 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7. The commandments are a unit of Ten, not one or nine, so they cannot be separated as God placed them together written by His own finger on stone. Exodus 31:18 and if we break of one these commandments we break them all James 2:10-12

We have a very merciful Savior who longs for to obey Him and turn from sin, and though Him, He gives us a new heart and we can ask for forgiveness and turn from sin and walk in newness of Christ in obedience to His commandments and He gives us His Spirit to help us obey John 14:15-18 Acts 5:32 and through Him we can gain victory over sin.

Colossians 2:16-17 is the go to verse to try to delete one of the commandments of God, but sadly no one ever takes the time to look at the context which is supplied in Colossians 2:14

First off, by Isaiah 66:22-23 we know that this is not referring to the weekly Sabbath commandment because worshipping the Lord on the Sabbath continue forever just as God promised. Isaiah 66:23 Exodus 31:16-17

But lets back up and put context in Colossians 2:14-17

Nehemiah 9:13
“You came down also on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven, And gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments.

What does Colossians 2:14 say is what ended?

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

There are more than one Sabbath in the scriptures. The weekly Sabbath that is a commandment of God finger written by God and the annual sabbath(s) which is the feast days/sacrificial system and ordinance .

This is obviously not referring to the Sabbath commandment.

The law of Moses was placed outside the ark of the covenant, handwritten by Moses in a book as a witness against you, Deuteronomy 31:24

The weekly Sabbath is holy and blessed Genesis 2:1-3 Exodus 20:8-11 which is not "contrary"

Is there a sabbath(s) in the law of ordinances? Yes, and fits Colossians 2:16 and is about food and drink and holy days called sabbath(s) in scripture which has nothing to do with the commandments of God that was before sin Genesis 2:1-3 and is a memorial to God's Creation "Remember" the Sabbath day to keep holy Exodus 20:8. The sabbath(s) feast days (animal and food offerings) is what ended, that is in the ordinances in the law of Moses, that was contrary to us and ended with Jesus as our Sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins and sanctification -See Hebrews 10 which is what Colossians 2:14-16 is referring to.

Another consideration why Colossians 2:14-16 is not referring the seventh day Sabbath

Colossians 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. The Sabbath is not a shadow of anything, it points back to Creation "Remember" the Sabbath day because it already happened as a memorial to creation and everything God has done for us.


The Sabbath day continues to be God's chosen day of worship for eternity: Isaiah 66:23 just like God promised Exodus 31:16

 

[SabbathBlessings]

See SB's recent post in which he gave cites for all ten commandments being repeated in the NT. However, his interpretation is way off on Hebrews 4 with respect to the 4th commandment -- but on the other ones, he's on the money <g>.

How so, we can go through Hebrews 4 verse by verse if you like. Also I am a she not a he.

 

[Doran]

Icy, you asked what a "covenant" is. Here is a link that explains it without getting into the deep weeds of details, and also notes what they think the covenants are in the bible.

What Is a Covenant and Why Is It So Serious?

The only thing I would add is that the ETERNAL New Covenant (and this is the only covenant in the bible characterized as such to the best of my knowledge) fulfills all the other covenants; and this is because Christ himself is the embodiment of the New Covenant (Isa 42:6). It would be fair, reasonable and accurate to say, in fact, that Christianity is nothing less than fulfilled Old Covenant Judaism.

 

[Doran]

Colossians 2:16-17 is the go to verse to try to delete one of the commandments of God, but sadly no one ever takes the time to look at the context which is supplied in Colossians 2:14

First off, by Isaiah 66:22-23 we know that this is not referring to the weekly Sabbath commandment because worshipping the Lord on the Sabbath continue forever just as God promised. Isaiah 66:23 Exodus 31:16-17

Okay...Isa 66:22-23 reads:

Isa 66:22-24
22 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. 24 "
NIV

In eternity, there is no such thing as from one time another. There is only TODAY in eternity! The prophet is simply expressing an eternal reality in temporal times to accommodate our finite understanding. None of us is capable of comprehending the infinite. All Isaiah is saying is that for all eternity all mankind will worship God -- but even then do we press the words to the extreme to mean that all the saints will be spending eternity on their knees bowed down to God?

More proof of my interpretation can be found in this passage:

Rev 21:23-27
23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 And the nations shall walk by its light, and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it. 25 And in the daytime (for there shall be no night there) its gates shall never be closed; 26 and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing unclean and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
NASB

No sun or moon is needed in eternity since one of the purposes of these celestial bodies is to serve as time markers (Gen 1:14-19).

And, yes, there is more than the weekly sabbath in scripture. But...the text in Colossians is an unqualified statement. Paul lumps all sabbaths together! Plus we already know that the 4th commandment was a sign of the Mosaic Covenant which is no longer in effect. The Mosaic Covenant is history! Therefore, the sign that identified the Jews as God's covenant people went out with that covenant!

Re Ex 31:16-17, the term "lasting" or "everlasting" doesn't always mean forever. Such terms are often employed euphemistically to mean a long time. A stellar example of this was the Covenant of Circumcision which was the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant. According to Gen 17:9ff., that covenant "in your flesh" is supposed to be an "everlasting" covenant. But yet, Paul tells us that circumcision or uncircumcision of the flesh means nothing (1Cor 7:19; Gal 5:6; 6:15). So...what happened to "forever" or "everlasting"?








But lets back up and put context in Colossians 2:14-17

Nehemiah 9:13
“You came down also on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven, And gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments.

What does Colossians 2:14 say is what ended?

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

There are more than one Sabbath in the scriptures. The weekly Sabbath that is a commandment of God finger written by God and the annual sabbath(s) which is the feast days/sacrificial system and ordinance .

This is obviously not referring to the Sabbath commandment.

The law of Moses was placed outside the ark of the covenant, handwritten by Moses in a book as a witness against you, Deuteronomy 31:24

The weekly Sabbath is holy and blessed Genesis 2:1-3 Exodus 20:8-11 which is not "contrary"

Is there a sabbath(s) in the law of ordinances? Yes, and fits Colossians 2:16 and is about food and drink and holy days called sabbath(s) in scripture which has nothing to do with the commandments of God that was before sin Genesis 2:1-3 and is a memorial to God's Creation "Remember" the Sabbath day to keep holy Exodus 20:8. The sabbath(s) feast days (animal and food offerings) is what ended, that is in the ordinances in the law of Moses, that was contrary to us and ended with Jesus as our Sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins and sanctification -See Hebrews 10 which is what Colossians 2:14-16 is referring to.

Another consideration why Colossians 2:14-16 is not referring the seventh day Sabbath

Colossians 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. The Sabbath is not a shadow of anything, it points back to Creation "Remember" the Sabbath day because it already happened as a memorial to creation and everything God has done for us.


The Sabbath day continues to be God's chosen day of worship for eternity: Isaiah 66:23 just like God promised Exodus 31:16[/QUOTE]

 

[Doran]

By the way, SB, I never said that the fourth commandment was "deleted" (your term). Jesus did not come to "delete" or abolish the Law of Moses. He came to fulfill, remember? And this is all I'm saying about the 4th commandment. Our rest and peace with God in this New Covenant dispensations is in someone far, far greater than in a single day!

 

[Doran]

By the way, SB, I never said that the fourth commandment was "deleted" (your term). Jesus did not come to "delete" or abolish the Law of Moses. He came to fulfill, remember? And this is all I'm saying about the 4th commandment. Our rest and peace with God in this New Covenant dispensations is in someone far, far greater than in a single day!

 

[Leaf473]

Regarding post #1139,

"...what I'd like to do in order to do justice your thoughtful post is to break up my response into bite-sized chunks."
A man after my own heart! To me, the bite-sized chunks make it easier to have a more efficient back and forth. And also much easier to read on a cell phone

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Okay...Isa 66:22-23 reads:

Isa 66:22-24
22 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. 24 "
NIV

In eternity, there is no such thing as from one time another. There is only TODAY in eternity! The prophet is simply expressing an eternal reality in temporal times to accommodate our finite understanding. None of us is capable of comprehending the infinite. All Isaiah is saying is that for all eternity all mankind will worship God -- but even then do we press the words to the extreme to mean that all the saints will be spending eternity on their knees bowed down to God?

Here is a better translation...


Isaiah 66:22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

There is no end date here, so that means for eternity, just the way God promised. Exodus 31:16-17

More proof of my interpretation can be found in this passage:

Rev 21:23-27
23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 And the nations shall walk by its light, and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it. 25 And in the daytime (for there shall be no night there) its gates shall never be closed; 26 and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing unclean and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
NASB

Not sure how this proves that we will not be worshiping the Lord on the Sabbath for eternity. Jesus will be our light in His New Heaven and New Earth but there is nothing to say we won't have days. The saints will be working in heaven Isaiah 65:21-22 and according to scripture the Sabbath remains as the day of worship the Lord from one Sabbath to another. Isaiah 66:22-23

And, yes, there is more than the weekly sabbath in scripture. But...the text in Colossians is an unqualified statement. Paul lumps all sabbaths together! Plus we already know that the 4th commandment was a sign of the Mosaic Covenant which is no longer in effect. The Mosaic Covenant is history! Therefore, the sign that identified the Jews as God's covenant people went out with that covenant!

No Paul doesn't, he is very clearly referring to the ordinances, not commandments as clearly demonstrated in my post. The commandments are not handwritten, it is "finger-written" by God and is part of a unit of Ten written personally By God that man cannot separate no matter how hard they try. Once God blesses something like He did with the weekly Sabbath, man cannot reverse Numbers 23:30. You are free to believe what you want, but you might be disappointed to learn that the Sabbath is a commandment of God and no scripture including Col 2:14-17 says we can break God's commandments.

Re Ex 31:16-17, the term "lasting" or "everlasting" doesn't always mean forever. Such terms are often employed euphemistically to mean a long time. A stellar example of this was the Covenant of Circumcision which was the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant. According to Gen 17:9ff., that covenant "in your flesh" is supposed to be an "everlasting" covenant. But yet, Paul tells us that circumcision or uncircumcision of the flesh means nothing (1Cor 7:19; Gal 5:6; 6:15). So...what happened to "forever" or "everlasting"?

There are three chapters dedicated to the change in circumcision, while physical circumcision ended, it is not one of God's eternal Ten Commandments. Paul makes it clear that the commandment of God is different than circumcision and keeping them is what matters.

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Despite your apparent objection, the Sabbath is a commandment of God according to God Exodus 34:28, Exodus 20 and it is what matters.

So far you have not supplied one scripture that says we are free to break the commandments of God including the Sabbath commandment. For me, I am going to stick with the scriptures.

God said:
showing mercy to thousands who love Me and keep My commandments right in the Ten exodus 20:6
Jesus repeating almost verbatim:
If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15
For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3

The Sabbath is a commandment of God. God spoke it, God wrote it, and I place my faith in Him and believe what He says.

 

[Doran]

Hi Him,

Thanks for the greeting!

Let's take a look at Hebrews 4:

1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”​

And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”

6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”​

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.​

This "Sabbath-rest" is explicitly tied to "the seventh day" and resting from our works, "just as God did from His." This seventh day is not generic, but specific as it is tied to "the creation of the world." The "Sabbath-rest" that remains "for the people of God" is the "seventh day" Sabbath.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

The passage in Hebrews 4 is talking about a rest. There is no mention of a "sabbath" rest per se. And in order to understand that chapter, we need to understand chapter 3! There are different kinds of rests. One of the "rests" spoken of in the OT is the rest of the Promised Land! See 2Sam 7:1; Josh 21:44; 23:1; 1Ki 5:4; 2Chron 14:16; Prov 16:7; Lk 1:74-75. And I would suggest to you that this is precisely the rest that is alluded to in Hebrews 4 because the disobedient Israelites in the wilderness were not permitted to enter into the Promised Land -- into the Land of Milk and Honey, i.e. into God's rest! This is the entire point to Hebrews 4. The writer is warning the believing Jews, to whom he's primarily writing to persevere in the faith, to say strong because "we who have believed enter that rest" -- that rest being none other than Christ! The writer is not calling these Jewish believers to enter into the seventh day sabbath rest! He's talking about something far greater than that!

This is a call to persevere in the faith Heb 4:14ff and none of do that by entering into the seventh day sabbath. We do that by entering and abiding in the true Sabbath Rest who is none other than Christ.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

By the way, SB, I never said that the fourth commandment was "deleted" (your term). Jesus did not come to "delete" or abolish the Law of Moses. He came to fulfill, remember? And this is all I'm saying about the 4th commandment. Our rest and peace with God in this New Covenant dispensations is in someone far, far greater than in a single day!

Fulfill used in the context to say we no longer have to keep, means the exact opposite of what Jesus stated- did not come to destroy the law. Also, not sure why people only apply this "logic" only to the 4th commandment, when scripture does not isolate this commandment as a unit of one. Exodus 34:28 Does fulfill mean we can now worship other gods, or bow to idols, or vain God's holy name? Of course not and it doesn't mean that way for God's holy Sabbath day either.

When I fulfill my wedding vows does that mean I am free to commit adultery or does that mean I am fulfilling my obligation to the covenant I made to my husband and staying faithful? When we break the covenant with God, we are not fulfilling our part.

Jesus goes on to say those who keep the least of the commandments and teach others to break will be least in heaven quoting directly from the Ten. Matthew 5:19-30. I do not think least means one will be there, but instead will be "lost" but we have free will to test this theory. We should take head of the warning Jesus gives to not teach other of breaking His commandments.

 

[Doran]

Here is a better translation...


Isaiah 66:22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

There is no end date here, so that means for eternity, just the way God promised. Exodus 31:16-17


Not sure how this proves that we will not be worshiping the Lord on the Sabbath for eternity. Jesus will be our light in His New Heaven and New Earth but there is nothing to say we won't have days. The saints will be working in heaven Isaiah 65:21-22 and according to scripture the Sabbath remains as the day of worship the Lord from one Sabbath to another. Isaiah 66:22-23



No Paul doesn't, he is very clearly referring to the ordinances, not commandments as clearly demonstrated in my post. The commandments are not handwritten, it is "finger-written" by God and is part of a unit of Ten written personally By God that man cannot separate no matter how hard they try. Once God blesses something like He did with the weekly Sabbath, man cannot reverse Numbers 21:23. You are free to believe what you want, but you might be disappointed to learn that the Sabbath is a commandment of God and no scripture including Col 2:14-17 says we can break God's commandments.

There are three chapters dedicated to the change in circumcision, while physical circumcision ended, it is not one of God's eternal Ten Commandments. Paul makes it clear that the commandment of God is different than circumcision and keeping them is what matters.

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Despite your apparent objection, the Sabbath is a commandment of God according to God Exodus 34:28, Exodus 20 and it is what matters.

So far you have not supplied one scripture that says we are free to break the commandments of God including the Sabbath commandment. For me, I am going to stick with the scriptures.

God said:
showing mercy to thousands who love Me and keep My commandments right in the Ten exodus 20:6
Jesus repeating almost verbatim:
If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15
For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3

The Sabbath is a commandment of God. God spoke it, God wrote it, and I place my faith in Him and believe what He says.

There is no such thing as days, weeks, months, years, etc. in eternity. Eternity is only NOW! The Isaiah 66 passage about from new moon to new moon, etc. But there will be no moon or sun in the new heavens and new earth. In eternity this is only TODAY! I would ask you to meditate on this messianic passage:

Ps 2:7-9

7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD:

He said to me, "You are my Son ;
today I have become your Father.
8 Ask of me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will rule them with an iron scepter;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery."
NIV

So, I ask you: What day specifically did God become the Father of his Son?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There is no such thing as days, weeks, months, years, etc. in eternity. Eternity is only NOW! The Isaiah 66 passage about from new moon to new moon, etc. But there will be no moon or sun in the new heavens and new earth. In eternity this is only TODAY! I would ask you to meditate on this messianic passage:

Ps 2:7-9

7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD:

He said to me, "You are my Son ;
today I have become your Father.
8 Ask of me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will rule them with an iron scepter;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery."
NIV

So, I ask you: What day specifically did God become the Father of his Son?

Is there death and sin in the world? Yes. So eternity for us is not now.

Those saved when Jesus comes will be granted eternal life, not before.

There is some sort of weekly and monthly system in heaven according to the clear Word of God. Isaiah 66:22-23 and scripture tells us we will be working in heaven Isaiah 65:21-22 so it appears the same pattern of work six days Exodus 20:9 and keep the Sabbath holy Exodus 20:8 continues in heaven and the new earth, Isaiah 66:22-23. The scripture you provided does not dispute these clear scriptures. We can only go off of the definitions we are given in scripture.

The seventh day is the Sabbath according to God. Exodus 20:10 and from one Sabbath to another the saints will be worshipping the Lord Isaiah 66:23. The Sabbath is God's holy day according to God. Genesis 2:1-3, Isaiah 58:13 God's finger-written commandments Exodus 31:18 which is placed in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple is revealed in heaven Revelation 11:19 because the earthy sanctuary was just a replica of God's heavenly sanctuary.

 

[Doran]

Fulfill used in the context to say we no longer have to keep, means the exact opposite of what Jesus stated- did not come to destroy the law. Also, not sure why people only apply this "logic" only to the 4th commandment, when scripture does not isolate this commandment as a unit of one. Exodus 34:28 Does fulfill mean we can now worship other gods, or bow to idols, or vain God's holy name? Of course not and it doesn't mean that way for God's holy Sabbath day either.

When I fulfill my wedding vows does that mean I am free to commit adultery or does that mean I am fulfilling my obligation to the covenant I made to my husband and staying faithful? When we break the covenant with God, we are not fulfilling our part.

Jesus goes on to say those who keep the least of the commandments and teach others to break will be least in heaven quoting directly from the Ten. Matthew 5:19-30. I do not think least means one will be there, but instead will be "lost" but we have free will to test this theory. We should take head of the warning Jesus gives to not teach other of breaking His commandments.

I didn't say that either. Where have I ever stated that we don't have to keep any of God's commandments? Why do you put words into my mouth? I keep the sabbath by abiding in Christ who is my rest -- per Jesus himself!

However, I am not obligated to consider any day to be special or better than another.

Rom 14:5-8
5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
NIV

Since you, obviously, consider the 7th day (or is it the 8th day?) to be special and a day that must be observed, short of being on your deathbed or on life-support, I suppose <g>, then I respect that. Likewise you should also recognize the freedom all Christians have in Christ with respect to the 4th commandment, since it is the Lord who is the Lord of our conscience.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I didn't say that either. Where have I ever stated that we don't have to keep any of God's commandments? Why do you put words into my mouth? I keep the sabbath by abiding in Christ who is my rest -- per Jesus himself!

Please post the scripture that says Jesus is the Sabbath and we do not need to keep the Sabbath commandment.

Changing the Sabbath commandment to make it convenient is not really keeping the Sabbath the way God instructed. Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13 Lev 23:3 It's sort of like Cain and Abel. One followed God's instructions, the other followed what suited them.

Rom 14:5-8
5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
NIV

Since you, obviously, consider the 7th day (or is it the 8th day?) to be special and a day that must be observed, short of being on your deathbed or on life-support, I suppose <g>, then I respect that. Likewise you should also recognize the freedom all Christians have in Christ with respect to the 4th commandment, since it is the Lord who is the Lord of our conscience.

Please quote anywhere in Romans 14 where it mentions the Sabbath commandment. If one of the commandments of God was going to be "removed" or "changed" the Sabbath commandment should at least be mentioned in the passage. This again is not referring to the Sabbath commandment, but the annual feast days. If you read in context the whole passage it is all about food and judging, there is nothing in the Sabbath commandment that is about food or judging. Exodus 20:8-11. Context is very important in scripture, which sadly seems to be the last consideration anymore.

Romans 14:1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Food is mentioned 9 times, the Sabbath is not mentioned once. God esteemed the Sabbath over all other days Exodus 20:8-11, Genesis 2:1-3 and man is not above God. This passage has nothing to do with the weekly Sabbath.

 

[Doran]

Is there death and sin in the world? Yes. So eternity for us is not now.

Those saved when Jesus comes will be granted eternal life, not before.

There is some sort of weekly and monthly system in heaven according to the clear Word of God. Isaiah 66:22-23 and scripture tells us we will be working in heaven Isaiah 65:21-22 so it appears the same pattern of work six days Exodus 20:9 and keep the Sabbath holy Exodus 20:8 continues in heaven and the new earth, Isaiah 66:22-23. The scripture you provided does not dispute these clear scriptures. We can only go off of the definitions we are given in scripture.

The seventh day is the Sabbath according to God. Exodus 20:10 and from one Sabbath to another the saints will be worshipping the Lord Isaiah 66:23. The Sabbath is God's holy day according to God. Genesis 2:1-3, Isaiah 58:13 God's finger-written commandments Exodus 31:18 which is placed in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple is revealed in heaven Revelation 11:19 because the earthy sanctuary was just a replica of God's heavenly sanctuary.

Logically, there can be no time markers whatsoever in an eternal environment. With God there is no such thing as the past or future. There is only NOW -- the present. And so it will be with us. This is why Revelation 21 teaches us that there will be no time markers in the New Heavens and New Earth.

Also, for your info, there are 3 tenses to salvation -- past, present and future. All true believers WERE justified once and for all at some point in the past, all are being sanctified presently and in the future all will be glorified. Therefore, the precious gift of eternal life is also in 3 tenses. All true believers have (presently) eternal life residing in our souls.

John 6:47
47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
NIV

The passages that speak to eternal life as a future reality are speaking to the consummation of our salvation, i.e. our resurrection (glorification).

 

[Doran]

Please post the scripture that says Jesus is the Sabbath and we do not need to keep the Sabbath commandment.

Changing the Sabbath commandment to make it convenient is not really keeping the Sabbath the way God instructed. Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13 Lev 23:3 It's sort of like Cain and Abel. One followed God's instructions, the other followed what suited them.


Please quote anywhere in Romans 14 where it mentions the Sabbath commandment. If one of the commandments of God was going to be "removed" or "changed" the Sabbath commandment should at least be mentioned in the passage. This again is not referring to the Sabbath commandment, but the annual feast days. If you read in context the whole passage it is all about food and there is nothing in the Sabbath commandment that is about food. Exodus 20:8-11. Context is very important in scripture, which sadly seems to be the last consideration anymore.

14:1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Food is mentioned 9 times, the Sabbath is not mentioned once. God esteemed the Sabbath over all other days Exodus 20:8-11, Genesis 2:1-3 and man is not above God. This passage has nothing to do with the weekly Sabbath.

Pray tell...what specific instructions did Cain and Abel have?

 

[Icyspark]

See SB's recent post in which he gave cites for all ten commandments being repeated in the NT. However, his interpretation is way off on Hebrews 4 with respect to the 4th commandment -- but on the other ones, he's on the money <g>.

Hi Doran,

Let's take a look at the third commandment which is supposedly restated in 1 Timothy.

1 Timothy 6:1 NIV
All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered.

1 Timothy 6:1 CEV
If you are a slave, you should respect and honor your owner. This will keep people from saying bad things about God and about our teaching.​

This is not a restatement of the command not to take the name of the Lord in vain. This is a directive to slaves not to provoke their owners to "keep people from saying bad things about God." It certainly appears this comment about owners of slaves likely isn't even directed toward believers. The third commandment is missing from the New Testament.

I find it interesting how dismissive you are about the Sabbath being addressed in Hebrews 4 but how willing you are to accept 1 Timothy as relevant to your position. Hebrews 4 is explicit in that the Sabbath rest that remains for the people of God is tied to "the seventh day" and to the rest that took place at "the creation of the world." That's pretty obvious isn't it?

Then too, if you're going to accept Matthew 4:10 as acceptable as a command referencing worshiping the Lord your God, then wouldn't you likewise be compelled to accept all Gospel references to the Sabbath as being equally relevant?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark