What does John 1:29 mean to you?

[Lulav]

I don't follow your point. Are you pegging on the "anyone's" I mentioned?

Let me say it another way —if anyone can be forgiven, it is through Christ alone.

That's true, while the subject it very specific though, about what John the Baptizer meant when he said 'Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world'
We aren't debating if he could or not but the subject is if it is sin or Sins

 

[Lulav]

Nor did God intend to save them. Or do you think they are more powerful than God?

We are all that way until he changes our wills.

Not to get off on the rabbit trail but God does not change a persons will which is why it is called 'free will'.

He gave that to Adam in the garden. He gave him one instruction/law that he could have everything there except the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

He told him he would die if he disobeyed.
Adam used his free will to decide God didn't know what he was talking about and took of it anyway.

God 'could' have changed Adams will but it should have been enough that God told him, 'NO'.

But do we ever listen?

 

[Lulav]

He did mean all manner of sin. But that doesn’t mean all sin is forgiven, which is evidenced by that very passage.

you didn't answer my question, I was asking who are those he died for, that you understand?

Only the sin of those He died for are taken away.

 

[Lulav]

That was not an individual sin, this sin, was a sin the nation of Israel committed. When the people of the nation of Israel let the leaders decide for them. Was Jesus the promised Messiah from the prophecies of The Tanakh. When the leaders rejected The Messiah on the bases of Jesus doing His miracles by the power of beelzebub.

Not sure I understand what you're saying. Do you mean that Jesus came 4000 years or so after the initial sin in the garden to die for the people living at the time who rejected him?

The leaders were put into place from ancient times. Jesus did not rail against them. He did say that whatever they taught (which would be from the Torah) to do but to not do what they did (which was outside of Torah and mostly to their benefit).

And the rejection was due in part to current circumstances in the occupied land.

As the High Priest said it was better for one man to die than the whole nation.

Also one of the reasons they sought to kill him was because of his claims to be God.

 

[disciple Clint]

Nor did God intend to save them. Or do you think they are more powerful than God?

We are all that way until he changes our wills.

No I believe God when he says it is His will for ALL to be saved.

 

[Lulav]

Not all will be saved.

Look at it this way, the designer of say a Rolex watch would only lay claim to those he made. Knock-offs would not be.

 

[Hammster]

you didn't answer my question, I was asking who are those he died for, that you understand?

His sheep.

 

[d taylor]

Not sure I understand what you're saying. Do you mean that Jesus came 4000 years or so after the initial sin in the garden to die for the people living at the time who rejected him?

The leaders were put into place from ancient times. Jesus did not rail against them. He did say that whatever they taught (which would be from the Torah) to do but to not do what they did (which was outside of Torah and mostly to their benefit).

And the rejection was due in part to current circumstances in the occupied land.

As the High Priest said it was better for one man to die than the whole nation.

Also one of the reasons they sought to kill him was because of his claims to be God.

The sin you were writing about in Matthew 12 blasphemy of The Holy spirit/the unforgivable sin. Is not or was never an individual sin. It was a national sin that could have only been committed by The nation of Israel. Why the nation of Israel, because they were God's chosen nation. That sin is only found in the context of Matthew 12. Where Jesus does specific miracles, that only the promised Messiah was supposed to be able to do. I am posting a few pages that go into more of an explanation of this below.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Not to get off on the rabbit trail but God does not change a persons will which is why it is called 'free will'.

He gave that to Adam in the garden. He gave him one instruction/law that he could have everything there except the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

He told him he would die if he disobeyed.
Adam used his free will to decide God didn't know what he was talking about and took of it anyway.

God 'could' have changed Adams will but it should have been enough that God told him, 'NO'.

But do we ever listen?

What do you think it means to say, "born again"? It is a change of will, of heart, by the indwelling of the Spirit of God. BTW, it is not called 'free will', in the Bible.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No I believe God when he says it is His will for ALL to be saved.

Do you believe God when he says to answer not a fool according to his folly, when in the following verse he says to answer a fool according to his folly?

 

[disciple Clint]

Do you believe God when he says to answer not a fool according to his folly, when in the following verse he says to answer a fool according to his folly?

God does not have confusion nor does He contradict Himself, any misunderstanding is totally in the mind of the reader.

 

[Lulav]

His sheep.

Yes, not the goats, or the tares.

 

[Lulav]

BTW, it is not called 'free will', in the Bible.

Free will is about choice. And there are plenty of places in the bible where we can see that, starting in the garden.

But here is a place in the Torah where the servant of God is speaking directly to his people right before they go into the promised land.

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
​

Just like today, they were given a choice to obey God (and live) or to not (and die).

He created us with Free will, the choice to love him or not.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, not the goats, or the tares.

Exactly.

 

[Hammster]

Free will is about choice. And there are plenty of places in the bible where we can see that, starting in the garden.

But here is a place in the Torah where the servant of God is speaking directly to his people right before they go into the promised land.

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
​

Just like today, they were given a choice to obey God (and live) or to not (and die).

He created us with Free will, the choice to love him or not.

Only His sheep will obey.


Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
— John 10:25-28

 

[Lulav]

What do you think it means to say, "born again"? It is a change of will, of heart, by the indwelling of the Spirit of God.

Born of the flesh has the attachments inherited from our ancestors (Adam and Eve). To be born of the Spirit means to me that you have been 'called' by the Spirit to repentance and have answered that call. It somehow changes your 'DNA'.

Here is a hint at that from when God visited Ezekiel in the chariot.

19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.​

It is similar to Jer 31:30-33

 

[Mark Quayle]

God does not have confusion nor does He contradict Himself, any misunderstanding is totally in the mind of the reader.

That much I agree with. Good thing you didn't say much more.

No I believe God when he says it is His will for ALL to be saved.

The tone here, is, "Unlike you, I believe God". The condescension (or is it arrogance) doesn't help your argument. I believe God too, when he says it is His will for ALL to be saved. I also believe him when he says that he has chosen only some. In fact, I don't know of anything God said that I don't believe.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Free will is about choice. And there are plenty of places in the bible where we can see that, starting in the garden.

But here is a place in the Torah where the servant of God is speaking directly to his people right before they go into the promised land.

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Just like today, they were given a choice to obey God (and live) or to not (and die).

He created us with Free will, the choice to love him or not.

By free will, some mean mere choice; others, like me, mean the ability to choose according to one's inclinations; others mean uncaused choice. In fact, I insist on the ability to choose, and not by puppetry, but always by our inclinations, even if only for that instant of choice. What do you mean by it?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Born of the flesh has the attachments inherited from our ancestors (Adam and Eve). To be born of the Spirit means to me that you have been 'called' by the Spirit to repentance and have answered that call. It somehow changes your 'DNA'.

Can you demonstrate that construction? —particularly the part where "born of the Spirit" = "'called' by the Spirit", and the part where being born of the Spirit depends on one's answering that call. Your passages below don't do that. In fact, it is rather plain that the action of putting a new spirit within them, and taking out the stony heart and replacing it with a heart of flesh, is done by God, not by the recipient; there isn't even a mention of the recipient being asked if he wanted this.

Here is a hint at that from when God visited Ezekiel in the chariot.

19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
It is similar to Jer 31:30-33

 

[disciple Clint]

That much I agree with. Good thing you didn't say much more.



The tone here, is, "Unlike you, I believe God". The condescension (or is it arrogance) doesn't help your argument. I believe God too, when he says it is His will for ALL to be saved. I also believe him when he says that he has chosen only some. In fact, I don't know of anything God said that I don't believe.

That points out another problem that some people have, reading things into the message. If there is a doubt about what God has said there are many free commentaries available online