Why people reject the reality of Hell

[BobRyan]

Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death.” In vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.”
“No more death” but 3 verses later, Rev 21:8 says eight groups of the unrighteous; [the]fearful, [the] unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters and liars “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is [still called] the second death.”
If there is “no more death,” after vs. 4, then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.

1. Rev 21:4 is not in Rev 20 where the Lake of fire is burning. IT is AFTER it.
2. It means they are already dead by the time you get to Rev 21:4. No longer being killed... rather dead-and-gone.

 

[Der Alte]

Except for those who admit that "second death" is a reference to the person dying in the lake of fire.

As I have said many times there is not one single verse which say anyone or anything is thrown into the lake of fire then they die.

Revelation 2:11 'Whoever has an ear should listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has part in the first resurrection! Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests” of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight and by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who expressed adoration to his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.2​

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

 

[Der Alte]

1. Rev 21:4 is not in Rev 20 where the Lake of fire is burning. IT is AFTER it.
2. It means they are already dead by the time you get to Rev 21:4. No longer being killed... rather dead-and-gone.

Assumptions not stated in scripture.

 

[Jipsah]

When your response to the quote of a text is to add "that's not what it really means." - you show that exegesis is not the method of interpretation you are choosing.

You and I are agreeing a lot here. Frightening. innit?

 

[Jipsah]

Although the lake of fire[LOF] is called the "the second death" twice there is not one single vs. in Rev which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF and then they or it dies.

Of course, "death" never really means "death", it always means an unpleasant eternal life.

"Never let Scripture get in the way of a dearly held doctrine" - Brother Buford

 

[Jipsah]

Assumptions not stated in scripture.

Kind of like the assumption that death never really means death if it doesn't jibe with your doctrinal presuppositions.

 

[Lazarus Short]

1. Rev 21:4 is not in Rev 20 where the Lake of fire is burning. IT is AFTER it.
2. It means they are already dead by the time you get to Rev 21:4. No longer being killed... rather dead-and-gone.

"Death" means that formerly living people are dead. Therefore, when Revelation 21:4 states "...and there shall be no more death." it clearly means there are no more dead, or formerly living people. I keep urging folks here to think it through - if anyone, ANYONE is still dead and/or in "hell," then Rev. 21:4 cannot be true...but it is.

If Revelation 21:4 is true, and it is, then everyone, from Adam on, must be alive. There is no other logical possibility, your man-made doctrine notwithstanding.

 

[Der Alte]

Of course, "death" never really means "death", it always means an unpleasant eternal life.
[Irrelevant rubbish omitted.]

Show me one vs. 2, or more would be better, which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies. There ain't none!
….Additional verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Have you ever read these vss? Maybe they are not in your Bible.
Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death.” In vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.”
“No more death” but 3 verses later, Rev 21:8 says eight [8] groups of the unrighteous; [the]fearful, [the] unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters and liars “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is [still called] the second death.”
If there is “no more death,” after vs. 4, then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”. Which is it?

 

[BobRyan]

"Death" means that formerly living people are dead.

death means that life ends. It is what we all face prior to the appearing of Christ. It is what all animals face, all living things face.

Rev 21 is not talking about raising the wicked from the second death and is not talking about raising animals , insects , plants back to life.

 

[BobRyan]

If Revelation 21:4 is true, and it is, then everyone, from Adam on, must be alive. There is no other logical possibility,

As most humans will agree - someone calling for "no more death" in places like Urkain is not asking that the dead be raised - they are talking about no more people being killed, no more people dying.

if death is abolished then we all live forever - but it does not mean that people that used to be alive - have all their dust particles turned back into tissue and come to life.

You have free will of course and can differ as you wish. I am simply writing for the normal case in terms of that definition. You can choose any path you wish.

 

[Der Alte]

"Death" means that formerly living people are dead. Therefore, when Revelation 21:4 states "...and there shall be no more death." it clearly means there are no more dead, or formerly living people. I keep urging folks here to think it through - if anyone, ANYONE is still dead and/or in "hell," then Rev. 21:4 cannot be true...but it is.
If Revelation 21:4 is true, and it is, then everyone, from Adam on, must be alive. There is no other logical possibility, your man-made doctrine notwithstanding.

Unless you look up the meaning of the word "death."

Death: the action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person or organism:"an increase in deaths from skin cancer"​

What your proof text says is "No more action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life."
It doesn't mean all the dead will suddenly come to life.
Your proof text does not say "No more dead."

 

[FineLinen]

[QUOTE="Saint Steven, post: 76866301
Saint Steven said: ↑
Did Jesus die to save us from God?

I think the overwhelming answer here is "Yes!"[/QUOTE]

Nonsense. The Master did not save us from the Father who loves us so deeply!

God so loved, He gave.

 

[BobRyan]

The Master did not save us from the Father who loves us so deeply!

God so loved, He gave.

Agreed - He came to save us from the 'second death' that we see in Rev 20 also called "hell" by other Bible writers. And though it is true that God supernaturally creates that lake of fire - it is not true that we have no salvation from it, at God's own expense. He paid dearly to save us from it.

 

[FineLinen]

Agreed - He came to save us from the 'second death' that we see in Rev 20 also called "hell" by other Bible writers. And though it is true that God supernaturally creates that lake of fire - it is not true that we have no salvation from it, at God's own expense. He paid dearly to save us from it.

Our Father ABBA came in His blessed Son to bring us home to Himself.

The Lake of theion & theioo is divine fire that consummates everything of the old man nature.

I make everything new.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Unless you look up the meaning of the word "death."

Death: the action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person or organism:"an increase in deaths from skin cancer"​

What your proof text says is "No more action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life."
It doesn't mean all the dead will suddenly come to life.
Your proof text does not say "No more dead."

Again, I am putting Rev. 21:4 into agreement with First Corinthians 15:55, where Death is taunted. Some of us seem to have no problem with "no death" coexisting with people being still dead, but if God delivers the taunt, and Death simply points to non-empty graves, God will be in a bad light...but that is not happening. God's Victory over death is more glorious than some here can imagine.

 

[FineLinen]

Foolish man! Don’t you know that what you sow in the ground doesn’t germinate unless it dies? And what you sow is not the body that will come into being, but the bare seed. And it’s hard to tell whether it’s wheat or some other seed. But when it dies, God gives it a new form, a body to fulfill his purpose, and he sees to it that each seed gets a new body of its own and becomes the plant he designed it to be. All flesh is not identical. Animals have one flesh and human beings another. Birds have their distinct flesh and fish another. In the same way there are earthly bodies and heavenly bodies. There is a splendor of the celestial body and a different one for the earthly. There is the radiance of the sun and differing radiance for the moon and for the stars. Even the stars differ in their shining. And that’s how it will be with the resurrection of the dead. The body is “sown” in decay, but will be raised in immortality. It is “sown” in humiliation, but will be raised in glorification. It is “sown” in weakness but will be raised in power. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. For it is written: The first man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam became the life-giving Spirit. However, the spiritual didn’t come first. The natural precedes the spiritual. The first man was from the dust of the earth; the second Man is Yahweh, from the realm of heaven. ~TPT

 

[Der Alte]

Again, I am putting Rev. 21:4 into agreement with First Corinthians 15:55, where Death is taunted. Some of us seem to have no problem with "no death" coexisting with people being still dead, but if God delivers the taunt, and Death simply points to non-empty graves, God will be in a bad light...but that is not happening. God's Victory over death is more glorious than some here can imagine.

What is your point? Do you think 1 Cor 15:55 is a universal reconciliation proof text?

1 Corinthians 15:55-58
(55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
(56) The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
(57) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(58) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.​

Paul is not stating a universal truth for all mankind but for his beloved brethren.
I understand vs. 58 to be saying that those who are out there working, doing their own thing and ignoring the Lord ain't going to get no victory in the Lord!

 

[Saint Steven]

Why do you think Christ died on the cross?

To defeat the consequence of sin, death.

 

[Jipsah]

Show me one vs. 2, or more would be better, which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies. There ain't none!

Of course not! Being chucked into the LOF is called the second death,but since death never really means death in Baptist Bible, then the fact that the LOF is referred to as the second death means nothing at all. It's just boilerplate, right?

Have you ever read these vss? Maybe they are not in your Bible.

There's apparently a lot of unique stuff in your Baptist Bible. I generally stick with the Original Anglican Version (aka, the KJV, the unexpurgated version) or the Amplified when I'm unsure of something. I understand that your lot generally uses the Nearly Inspired Version nowadays since the Jacobean language was more than most of you could grasp.

Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death.”

What does "death" really mean there?

In vs. 5 Jesus said “

Behold I make all things new.”

A new LOF for the unfortunates enjoying the gift of God (eternal life) there?

If there is “no more death,” after vs. 4, then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.” Which is it

?

Anything you please, since "death" in your lexicon has more meanings than Musk has dollars.

 

[Der Alte]

Of course not! Being chucked into the LOF is called the second death,but since death never really means death in Baptist Bible, then the fact that the LOF is referred to as the second death means nothing at all. It's just boilerplate, right?
There's apparently a lot of unique stuff in your Baptist Bible. I generally stick with the Original Anglican Version (aka, the KJV, the unexpurgated version) or the Amplified when I'm unsure of something. I understand that your lot generally uses the Nearly Inspired Version nowadays since the Jacobean language was more than most of you could grasp.
What does "death" really mean there?
A new LOF for the unfortunates enjoying the gift of God (eternal life) there?
Anything you please, since "death" in your lexicon has more meanings than Musk has dollars.

I have answered all of these spurious objections in my previous posts, this thread.
I don't rely on versions. I read both Greek and Hebrew and I have the latest editions of Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew lexicon and Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon.
"No more death" means no more dying, end of life. "No more death" does NOT mean all the dead return to life. To mean that it would read "no more dead!"