Re-Thinking Hell

[Der Alte]

It's well known that Hell exists in Judaism. But according to the Judaic theology, Hell only lasts one year: Does Judaism believe in heaven and hell?
The only source material in the quoted post above which contradicts that, is from the book of Enoch and the book of Judith. Both of which are apocrypha of questionable origin.

Re: Judith and Enoch your scholar's opinion is garbage! The Jews quoted them as authoritative in their writings.
You found yourself a disengenuous "scholar" that says what you want to hear and present him/her as if they were the end all, be all authority on the Jewish beliefs.
And he/she probably selectively quoted some of the same sources I have posted numerous times. Speaking of which how many times have I posted my "Hell in Judaism" post and how many times have you ignored it or blown it off as a wall of text?
Here it is for you to ignore again. Please read my disclaimer at the top. If you wish to dialogue with me don't quote your pet scholars at me and ignore my posts. How about a little honesty? I have even highlighted in red the parts you don't want to see.
My ¢¢Below are quotes from three Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
= = = = =
…..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT. As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the eleven [11] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

[A fate worse than death. DA]
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death, without mercy, is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say “eternal death,” in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment/aionios kolasis.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16​

 

[wendykvw]

I take it that Christianity doesn't sell too well unless we tweak some bits here and there to make God more acceptable...

Is this what is happening ?

Actually it is a conference held each year to discuss annihilation and Eternal hell. However now that purgatorial hell has become a voice they are allowed to discuss all three views among different scholars and theologians. The conference is re-thinking hell each year in USA.

https://m.youtube.com/user/rethinkinghell

 

[wendykvw]

Hot Topic. Reforming how we view hell. Top views under scrutiny.

The book “Second Edition of the Four Views of Hell”:


Contributors and views include:

• Denny Burk – representing a principle of Eternal Conscious Torment
• John Stackhouse – representing a principle of Annihilationism (Conditional Immortality)
• Robin Parry – representing a principle of Universalism (Ultimate Reconciliation)
• Jerry Walls – representing a principle of Purgatory

Preston Sprinkle concludes the discussion by evaluating each view, noting significant points of exchange between the essayists. The interactive nature of the volume allows the reader to reflect on the strengths and weaknesses of each view and come to an informed conclusion.

 

[ozso]

Re: Judith and Enoch your scholar's opinion is garbage! The Jews quoted them as authoritative in their writings.
You found yourself a disengenuous "scholar" that says what you want to hear and present him/her as if they were the end all, be all authority on the Jewish beliefs.
And he/she probably selectively quoted some of the same sources I have posted numerous times. Speaking of which how many times have I posted my "Hell in Judaism" post and how many times have you ignored it or blown it off as a wall of text?
Here it is for you to ignore again. Please read my disclaimer at the top. If you wish to dialogue with me don't quote your pet scholars at me and ignore my posts. How about a little honesty? I have even highlighted in red the parts you don't want to see.
My ¢¢Below are quotes from three Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
= = = = =
…..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT. As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the eleven [11] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

[A fate worse than death. DA]
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death, without mercy, is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say “eternal death,” in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment/aionios kolasis.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16​

Sorry but all you have is a dab of apocrypha in all of that to support an anonymous amateur presentation.

It's well known that Hell exists in Judaism. But according to the Judaic theology, Hell only lasts one year: Does Judaism believe in heaven and hell?

The only source material in the quoted post above which contradicts that, is from the book of Enoch and the book of Judith. Both of which are apocrypha of questionable origin.

 

[wendykvw]

@Hmm and @MMXX
I find the Jewish version of hell, Gehenna is very similar to the restoration view. Short video of the Jewish explanation. If you have time, let me know if you think it is similar to restoration.

 

[ozso]

@Hmm and @MMXX
I find the Jewish version of hell, Gehenna is very similar to the restoration view. Short video of the Jewish explanation. If you have time, let me know if you think it is similar to restoration.

I don't think this Rabbi is saying anything unique. I've heard it before here and there throughout the years.

 

[Der Alte]

Sorry but all you have is a dab of apocrypha in all of that to support an anonymous amateur presentation.
It's well known that Hell exists in Judaism. But according to the Judaic theology, Hell only lasts one year: Does Judaism believe in heaven and hell?
The only source material in the quoted post above which contradicts that, is from the book of Enoch and the book of Judith. Both of which are apocrypha of questionable origin.

Your uninformed, unsupported, biased opinion is irrelevant. You are deliberately only telling a fraction of the story. What modern Jews believe about hell is irrelevant as I have shown from three Jewish sources; The Jewish Encyclopedia, The Talmud and the Encyclopedia Judaica. Which OBTW have not and cannot be refuted concerning the historical Jewish belief.
What do modern Jews believe about Jesus? Do you want to quote some of that in support of your arguments? I think not.
Once again your biased opinion about Enoch and Judith is totally irrelevant. The Jewish sources I posted, quoted them as authoritative. Pack your bags end of story.
I explained in my post, which you evidently have never read for understanding. You probably just skimmed it trying to find something you thought you could easily refute such as the bit about Enoch and Judith.
Why is the modern Jewish view of hell irrelevant but the historical belief was and is very relevant? Here is a hint the modern Jewish view about hell has absolutely no influence on the Christian belief.
OTOH all of the NT writers lived in that society and would have been influenced from birth by all of the existing beliefs including the belief in hell.

 

[Hmm]

Your uninformed, unsupported, biased opinion is irrelevant.

I like how Infernalists always produce cool, calm and coherent arguments. You always present a civil and well thought out case even though sadly they never quite hit the mark.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Matthew 10:28 King James Version (KJV)

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

At first glance, it seems that the Lord is speaking about destruction that is complete and most will understand this in physical terms. The word translated destroy is apollymi, and it needs to be pointed out, first, that (in the above verse) is not the same word translated as "kill," which is apokteinō. Why that is significant is that many will read this and correlate the two as though the same fate is in view.

It's not.

The use of the term "soul" also has to be understood, in that while many view "soul" to be a reference to an immaterial aspect of man...it isn't. "Soul" is a reference to the person, rather than his spirit. Man was created with a body and a spirit, and became a living soul, so he is a soul, rather than "has" a soul.

So look back at our proof-text and consider that the soul, the person, can be killed by men, but then there is nothing more they can do. Now note that God does not kill the body and soul, but "destroys both body and soul. Here is the key: The body refers to the physical existence of men which can be killed, but body and soul refer to the totality of the man. When the dead are raised to be judged, they too will receive bodies suited to eternal torment. Similar to being glorified with one primary exception, they do not have the life we receive when we are placed in Christ. Then we look at what God can do to both body and soul, which is to destroy them, and we ask—can this have an unending context?

All we have to do is back up and see a people that already exist in a state of destruction:

Matthew 10:5-6 King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The word translated "the lost" is the same word translated "destroy" in v.28, apollymi. Israel was in a "state of destruction" because they were what the "Lost" will be for eternity...separated from God.

Again, we consider the difference between an eternal context and a physical. They were separated on a basis of relationship through the Covenant of Law, which earns them their designation as "lost sheep."

But being Lost has a greater context, an eternal context (meaning that context pertaining to Eternity, God's Realm). All men are born lost, that is...separated from God. Those who go into Hell (the Lake of Fire) will be for eternity separated from God. The primary point of all this being...we consider those who are "lost," in a state of destruction, "destroyed" by God...who have not ceased to exist. The same will be true in regards to Eternal Judgment. The destruction points to something not possible among men in regards to imposing damage in the physical sense.

God will destroy the person in a physical sense forever.

Another point would be found in the correlation of statements made in Jude and 2 Peter 2 where the description does not really allow for a cessation of existence.

Another point would be the Lord's rebuke of the original Annihilationists...the Sadducees (Matthew 22:23-32). They believed that when men died that was it. The Lord rebukes them for not knowing the Scriptures or the power of God. While this would not immediately deny plausibility for Annihilation and it could be argued that it doesn't speak towards Eternal Judgment being everlasting, or, that it simply makes the point "they haven't passed out of existence yet," when we balance everything said it leaves little room for embracing Annihilation as Biblical, thus should be rejected.

It is not just the teachings of Christ we must take into account, but the entirety of what Scripture teaches.

Just as a note, I have not seen a distinction drawn between Hades and Gehenna in this thread that clearly distinguishes between the "place of the dead" which will be emptied at the Great White Throne:


Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


No one has been cast into what most view as Gehenna Hell, the Lake of Fire, that we know of. When men die today they go to hades/sheol (which I believe is still divided between the just and unjust (both of which were not eternally redeemed during their lifetimes)). A few of the doctrines necessary, in my view, to understand this properly would be whether man is a dichotomy or a trichotomy, whether men were born again in Old Testament Ages, and when men are placed in the Book of Life. Understanding Eternal Judgment requires more than just a look at what the Lord taught.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

You're always wrong of course but I still like how Infernalists always produce cool, calm and coherent arguments. You always present a civil and well thought out case even though sadly it's never quite there.

Hmm...

 

[wendykvw]

Okay. I thought it was similar to the restoration view and it is always good hearing from the perspective of the Jewish mindset from Torah. Torah will always support the New Testament. Also, Adam and Eve were warned of death, not eternal torment. Christ conquered death and has the keys to death. And So much more.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I disagree. Jesus spoke on hell more than He spoke on heaven.

I kept seeing that statement, and got curious - so curious that one day I tallied up the number of times Jesus spoke about "hell," and the number of time He spoke of "heaven." My finding was that He spoke of "heaven" about 6.5 times more often than He did of "hell," even if I admit that "hell" exists, which I don't.

It's time to put that little bon mot to bed.

 

[johnjanuary1984]

Luke 16:19-31 is crystal clear in what it says. People who deny Luke 16 keep saying that it doesn't mean what it says.

That comes from the father of lies. Satan doesn't want people to believe in hell. He wants people to believe that their is no punishment, so you might as well do whatever your sinful nature desires.

Rejecting Jesus sacrifice is a very serious thing.

God suffered hell for you. He didn't have to suffer eternally because he was innocent.

Jesus wouldn't have needed to suffer if there were no Hell. He could have just died a quick painless death. That fact that Jesus HAD to suffer proves Hell exists .

 

[Lazarus Short]

Luke 16:19-31 is crystal clear in what it says. People who deny Luke 16 keep saying that it doesn't mean what it says.

That comes from the father of lies. Satan doesn't want people to believe in hell. He wants people to believe that their is no punishment, so you might as well do whatever your sinful nature desires.

Rejecting Jesus sacrifice is a very serious thing.

God suffered hell for you. He didn't have to suffer eternally because he was innocent.

Jesus wouldn't have needed to suffer if there were no Hell. He could have just died a quick painless death. That fact that Jesus HAD to suffer proves Hell exists .

1. Universalists do NOT deny Luke 16:9-31, but we interpret it differently.

2. "...from the father of lies"? Assertion is not proof.

3. No punishment? We agree that there is punishment, we just disagree on its purpose and duration.

4. God did not suffer "hell" for us...only death. Please demonstrate that "hell" exists due to the sufferings of Jesus. I can only show that He laid dead in a tomb for three days and nights.

 

[Der Alte]

I like how Infernalists always produce cool, calm and coherent arguments. You always present a civil and well thought out case even though sadly they never quite hit the mark.

A total waste of band width which contributes nothing.

 

[johnjanuary1984]

1. Universalists do NOT deny Luke 16:9-31, but we interpret it differently.

2. "...from the father of lies"? Assertion is not proof.

3. No punishment? We agree that there is punishment, we just disagree on its purpose and duration.

4. God did not suffer "hell" for us...only death. Please demonstrate that "hell" exists due to the sufferings of Jesus. I can only show that He laid dead in a tomb for three days and nights.

Only death??? Like a quick painless death ??? No. He was tortured. Why would a loving God allow his one and only son to be tortured ??? Why not just a quick painless death??

 

[Lazarus Short]

Only death??? Like a quick painless death ??? No. He was tortured. Why would a loving God allow his one and only son to be tortured ??? Why not just a quick painless death??

Maybe because a quick and painless death would not involve sacrifice...but that is above my pay grade.

 

[johnjanuary1984]

Maybe because a quick and painless death would not involve sacrifice...but that is above my pay grade.

I think Isaiah 53 answer's that question. But anyways......

When people say, "how could a loving God send people to Hell?" , I can use their own reasoning against them by asking how could a loving God allow his one and only son to be tortured? A loving God would have given his one and only son a quick painless death. Right ?

The fact that Jesus had to endure torture proves that Hell exists.

 

[Der Alte]

1. Universalists do NOT deny Luke 16:9-31, but we interpret it differently.
2. "...from the father of lies"? Assertion is not proof.
3. No punishment? We agree that there is punishment, we just disagree on its purpose and duration.
4. God did not suffer "hell" for us...only death. Please demonstrate that "hell" exists due to the sufferings of Jesus. I can only show that He laid dead in a tomb for three days and nights.

Here is how you should interpret it.

EOB Luke 16:19 Now there was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen, feasting in luxury every day. 20 A certain beggar named Lazarus was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Yes, even dogs came and licked his sores. 22 It happened that the beggar died and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. 23 In hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 He cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue! For I am in agony in this flame!’
25 But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime, you received your good things, and Lazarus, in the same way, bad things. But now, he is comforted here and you are in anguish. 26 Besides all this, between us and you a great gulf is fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot [do so], and that no one may cross over from there to us.’
27 He said, ‘I ask you therefore, father, that you would send Lazarus to my father’s house;
28 for I have five brothers, that he might bear witness to them, so that they would not also come to this place of torment.’
29 Abraham replied to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets! Let them listen to them!’
30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
31 Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone rises from the dead.’​

Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[P1LGR1M]

Only death??? Like a quick painless death ??? No. He was tortured. Why would a loving God allow his one and only son to be tortured ??? Why not just a quick painless death??

Keep in mind that when Christ gave up the ghost He said—"it is finished."

Eternal Redemption was accomplished by His death, not His suffering:

Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

The point of remission of sins through vicarious death (as seen under Old Testament conditions) never required suffering. It was a matter of death being the wages of sin and the animal dying in the place of the sinner instead.

While men received remission of sins through vicarious animal death it was temporary and would have to be continually repeated.

But when Christ has died in our stead it is everlasting:


Hebrews 10:14
King James Version

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


That eternal judgment is everlasting is seen in the fact that it is contrasted with Eternal Life: if eternal judgment isn't everlasting then those who embrace annihilation have to equally reject eternal life to be consistent.

God bless.