Saturday or Sunday Church?

[SabbathBlessings]

Hate to awake the beast again but these verses seem to sum up the issue pretty clearly.

Romans 14
14 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not to have quarrels over opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but the one who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person values one day over another, another values every day the same. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and the one who eats, does so with regard to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and the one who does not eat, it is for the Lord that he does not eat, and he gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10 But as for you, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or you as well, why do you regard your brother or sister with contempt? For we will all appear before the judgment seat of God.

Both sides of the argument are valid - it is a matter of individual faith.

Romans 13
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law.

Interesting, nothing you quoted says we are free to break to the Sabbath commandment.

Romans 13 has to do with what laws government should be involved in, which is why it only relates to how we should behave towards our fellow man. Paul is not telling people they are free to now worship other gods, or vain God's holy name, or bow to images and break God's holy Sabbath commandment. The government should not be involved with how we are to worship God. God does not force us to worship Him, this is an individual choice and when government agencies start mandating what day we go to church or how to worship Him, this takes away our free choice to choose God on our own. God does not want force worship, He wants us to worship Him in Truth and Spirit and obey Him through love John 4:23-24, Exodus 20:6, 1 John 5:3, John 14:15. Force worship comes from the "other spirit" and not God.

Romans 14 is not referring to the seventh day Sabbath which you will note not once does it mention the Sabbath commandment, so you are reading into scripture what is not there. If one of the commandments of God was going to be deleted it would be clear as day, just the way God wrote His commandments, on stone by His own finger, and spoken by His own voice.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Interesting, nothing you quoted says we are free to break to the Sabbath commandment.

Romans 13 has to do with what laws government should be involved in, which is why it only relates to how we should behave towards our fellow man. Paul is not telling people they are free to now worship other gods, or vain God's holy name, or bow to images and break is holy Sabbath. The government should not be involved with how we are to worship God. God does not force us to worship Him, this is an individual choice and when government agencies start mandating what day we go to church or how to worship Him, this takes away our free choice to choose God on our own. God does not want force worship, He wants us to worship Him in Truth and Spirit and obey Him through love John 4:23-24, Exodus 20:6, 1 John 5:3, John 14:15.

Romans 14 is not referring to the seventh day Sabbath which you will note not once does it mention the Sabbath commandment, so you are reading into scripture what is not there. If one of the commandments of God was going to be deleted it would be clear as day, just the way God wrote His commandments, on stone by His own finger, and spoken by His own voice.

Enjoy your faith and your day...

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Enjoy your faith and your day...

I always do, thanks.

 

[Leaf473]

Hate to awake the beast again but these verses seem to sum up the issue pretty clearly.

Romans 14
14 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not to have quarrels over opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but the one who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person values one day over another, another values every day the same. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and the one who eats, does so with regard to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and the one who does not eat, it is for the Lord that he does not eat, and he gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10 But as for you, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or you as well, why do you regard your brother or sister with contempt? For we will all appear before the judgment seat of God.

Both sides of the argument are valid - it is a matter of individual faith.

Romans 13
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law.

I agree, it's an individual matter.

And then later on in chapter 14, there's this:
22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who doesn’t judge himself in that which he approves.

Should we keep our thoughts on these things to ourselves?
"Have it to ourselves before God?"

That made sense in Paul's day, and it would make sense if I were living on a small Pacific Island where most everyone worshiped on the seventh day. I would happily join them and not say a word.

But how does it work on the internet? Here, Christians from all around the world are thrown together. I often question whether it's a good idea to discuss the law on the internet.

But then again, it seems like it could come up in unrelated discussions. One person might speculate that the mark of the beast could be an implanted chip that we have to use to buy or sell. Someone else says no, it's Sunday worship.

 

[HIM]

I agree, it's an individual matter.

And then later on in chapter 14, there's this:
22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who doesn’t judge himself in that which he approves.

Should we keep our thoughts on these things to ourselves?
"Have it to ourselves before God?"

That made sense in Paul's day, and it would make sense if I were living on a small Pacific Island where most everyone worshiped on the seventh day. I would happily join them and not say a word.

But how does it work on the internet? Here, Christians from all around the world are thrown together. I often question whether it's a good idea to discuss the law on the internet.

But then again, it seems like it could come up in unrelated discussions. One person might speculate that the mark of the beast could be an implanted chip that we have to use to buy or sell. Someone else says no, it's Sunday worship.

You would be wrong then.
No mention of the Sabbath in those verses. If Paul was speaking of the Sabbath or sabbaths he would have said so. The discussion in chapter 14 was not in respect to the Pentateuch. It was in relation to personal opinions and arguing over them not the Word of God. Verse one brings this out. And verse two's subject. Nowhere in the word of God are we commanded to eat only herbs.

New American Standard Bible
Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not to have quarrels over opinions.

One person has faith that he may eat all things, but the one who is weak eats only vegetables.

 

[HIM]

Well, I see right off that the word translated as Commandments in Deuteronomy 30:10 is Strong's 4687, mitsvah.
Strong's Hebrew: 4687. מִצְוָה (mitsvah) -- commandment

I remembered that Leviticus ends this way:
These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.

So therefore, the entire book of Leviticus is commandments. I'm not sure if that was what you were expecting me to find or not. The book of Leviticus has a lot of animal sacrifice laws in it, and usually people who say that some part of the law has stopped say that the animal sacrifice laws have stopped.

You're welcome to clarify, if you wish. Of course, I can study this on my own. But since this is a discussion forum, it seems like that would be something interesting to discuss.

No on Leviticus.
Lev 26:46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

And What about the commandments, statutes, ordinances and judgments. Look at all those words and see how they are used throughout the OT with Deut. 30:10-14 in mind. In particular verse 10. Because the commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law is the word that is in our hearts and mouths according to verse 14. And this is the New Covenant that is mentioned in 29:1. Which is that which Jeremiah prophesied in chapter 31 verse 31 due to their hard hearts in that they refused to receive it when it was first promised in Deut. 29:1 and 30:10-14.

Deut 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

And why does Romans 10:6-8 paraphrase Deut. 30:10-14?

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: )
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

 

[Leaf473]

You would be wrong then.
No mention of the Sabbath in those verses. If Paul was speaking of the Sabbath or sabbaths he would have said so. The discussion in chapter 14 was not in respect to the Pentateuch. It was in relation to personal opinions and arguing over them not the Word of God. Verse one brings this out. And verse two's subject. Nowhere in the word of God are we commanded to eat only herbs.

New American Standard Bible
Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not to have quarrels over opinions.

One person has faith that he may eat all things, but the one who is weak eats only vegetables.

The Sabbath is mentioned in Romans 14, yes and no. It talks about "all days". That would include the 7th Day, the feast days, and any other day a person can think of imo.

I agree that we are not commanded to eat only vegetables. But in practice, in a place like Rome or Corinth, in order to avoid supporting idolatry and to avoid eating unclean foods, some people decided to eat only vegetables. I think that probably included fruits and grains. Not sure.

That's how it looks to me.

 

[Leaf473]

No on Leviticus.
Lev 26:46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

And What about the commandments, statutes, ordinances and judgments. Look at all those words and see how they are used throughout the OT with Deut. 30:10-14 in mind. In particular verse 10. Because the commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law is the word that is in our hearts and mouths according to verse 14. And this is the New Covenant that is mentioned in 29:1. Which is that which Jeremiah prophesied in chapter 31 verse 31 due to their hard hearts in that they refused to receive it when it was first promised in Deut. 29:1 and 30:10-14.

Deut 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

And why does Romans 10:6-8 paraphrase Deut. 30:10-14?

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: )
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Yes, Leviticus 26
These are the statutes, ordinances, and laws, which the Lord made between him and the children of Israel in Mount Sinai by Moses.

Comparing with Leviticus 27
These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses for the children of Israel on Mount Sinai.

I see two possibilities:
The first is that Leviticus 1-26 is statutes, ordinances, and laws, while Leviticus 27 is commandments.

But I think much more likely is that commandments/mitzvah is a synonym for statutes, ordinances, and laws.

Kind of like how in English there's the common phrase Rules and regulations. Is there a significant difference? I can't think of one.

The city where I live has ordinances, the state has statutes. They are all called Laws.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes, Leviticus 26
These are the statutes, ordinances, and laws, which the Lord made between him and the children of Israel in Mount Sinai by Moses.

Comparing with Leviticus 27
These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses for the children of Israel on Mount Sinai.

I see two possibilities:
The first is that Leviticus 1-26 is statutes, ordinances, and laws, while Leviticus 27 is commandments.

But I think much more likely is that commandments/mitzvah is a synonym for statutes, ordinances, and laws.

Kind of like how in English there's the common phrase Rules and regulations. Is there a significant difference? I can't think of one.

The city where I live has ordinances, the state has statutes. They are all called Laws.

Very good point. All laws are in effect and are enforceable unless otherwise changed or eliminated. Jesus Christ fulfilled the entire Law according to scripture, not just most of it, excluding ten commandments in it.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Very good point. All laws are in effect and are enforceable unless otherwise changed or eliminated. Jesus Christ fulfilled the entire Law according to scripture, not just most of it, excluding ten commandments in it.

Jesus seemed to say otherwise….

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I don’t think least means you will be there, but you’re welcome to test that theory. Jesus did provide us a warning: Matthew 7:21-23

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Are the saints the saved ones or lost ones?

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

It doesn't sound like all the laws ended and we are free to sin- which is defined as breaking God's law. 1 John 3:4, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7

 

[bbbbbbb]

Jesus seemed to say otherwise….

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I don’t think least means you will be there, but you’re welcome to test that theory.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Are the saints the saved ones or lost ones?

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

It doesn't sound like all the laws ended and we are free to sin- which is defined as breaking God's law. 1 John 3:4, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7

It is a great pity that some folks glory in their own ability to obey God's commandments.

 

[HIM]

It is a great pity that some folks glory in their own ability to obey God's commandments.

That ain’t what she said. Why not prove that her post is wrong within the context of the passage given?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It is a great pity that some folks glory in their own ability to obey God's commandments.

You mean glorifying God by doing what He asks of us, His righteousness Psalms 119:172, instead of what we deem as righteous, which is not saving or sanctifying. John 17:17

 

[Carl Emerson]

Very good point. All laws are in effect and are enforceable unless otherwise changed or eliminated. Jesus Christ fulfilled the entire Law according to scripture, not just most of it, excluding ten commandments in it.

Excluding ???

 

[HIM]

The Sabbath is mentioned in Romans 14, yes and no.

No not at all. You are wrong. Why not answer the points given derived from the the text rather than post an opinion which can not be derived from tue passage unless one inserts it?
No mention of the Sabbath in those verses. Not at all. If Paul was speaking of the Sabbath or sabbaths he would have said so. HE DIDN’T. The discussion in chapter 14 was not in respect to the Pentateuch. It was in relation to personal opinions and arguing over them not the Word of God. Verse one brings this out. And verse two's subject. Nowhere in the word of God are we commanded to eat only herbs.

New American Standard Bible
Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not to have quarrels over opinions.

One person has faith that he may eat all things, but the one who is weak eats only vegetables.

 

[HIM]

Enjoy your faith and your day...

Funny way to say you have no argument against what was said in the post you responded to.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Funny way to say you have no argument against what was said in the post you responded to.

Not at all - just heeding the word of Romans 14.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Excluding ???

Excluding the TEN COMMANDMENTS. Some folks believe that Jesus Christ set aside all but the TEN COMMANDMENTS when He fulfilled the Law. They do not believe that the TEN COMMANDMENTS were part of the Law as understood by Jesus and the apostles. Thus, they believe that only the TEN COMMANDMENTS remain to be kept by Christians and none of the other commandments of the Old Testament. Thus, they apparently believe that minor things such as sodomy, incest, and fornication are of no real interest to God, but that adultery is a major sin because it is the only sexual sin listed in the TEN COMMANDMENTS.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You mean glorifying God by doing what He asks of us, His righteousness Psalms 119:172, instead of what we deem as righteous, which is not saving or sanctifying. John 17:17

Precisely what is it that God asks of us? Is it to engage in nineteenth-century Protestant religious activities on Saturdays?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Precisely what is it that God asks of us? Is it to engage in nineteenth-century Protestant religious activities on Saturdays?

Did you know the God's Testimony, Ten Commandments was written by God's own finger Exodus 31:18 spoken by God's own voice Exodus 20, was placed in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple that is also revealed in heaven Revelation 11:19 Do you really think God is going to be okay with people in heaven keeping the commandments they feel like keeping and when everyone else gathers to worship Him on His holy Sabbath day in the New heaven and New Earth, Isaiah 66:22-23- you telling Him, no thanks this is too outdated for me to keep.

The Sabbath is not from the nineteenth century it was from the very beginning of time Genesis 2:1-3 God's perfect plan before sin, that man would worship God on His holy day Isaiah 58:13, Exodus 20:10 in His presence, which is exactly how it will be once everything is restored. God's will for us in heaven is not different for us now on earth.

If you don't want to worship God on His holy Sabbath day now, what makes you think you will all of a sudden want to in heaven? God loves each of us so much He will never force us to worship Him. We are called to worship Him in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24 and not worship in vain by placing man's ways over the commandments of God Matthew 15:3-9.

The saints keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus Revelation 14:12. I can only speak for myself, but I want to be one of His saints.