Creation Sabbath Origin

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf.

Scripture does say God spoke to them directly, and shows God reasoning with Cain concerning sin (Genesis 4:6-8). I don't think God would leave out a whole series of important instructions concerning their relationship, if He was having intimate conversations with them.

Best regards.

I know that God talks to Adam about not eating from the Good and evil tree. When Eve repeats those instructions to the serpent, she says something slightly different. Had God told her directly? Or did Adam?

I don't see that God talks to Cain and Abel about sacrifices.

He does talk to Cain about feelings and anger, and uses the word Sin.

But does Sin require full knowledge of the law, or is a knowledge of Good and evil enough?

In Romans 2, we learn that there are gentiles who do not have the law but still know at least some of the right things to do.

To me, God having conversations with those earliest humans doesn't lead to the necessary conclusion that he then gave them a body of laws, including laws about the Sabbath.

It looks to me like God made some changes after the flood, also. Now they could eat animals, and murderers were to be executed.

Peace be with you, my brother!

 

[BobRyan]

I know that God talks to Adam about not eating from the Good and evil tree.

And I know that the creation Sabbath origin comes from Gen 2:1-3 and is confirmed in Ex 20:11

 

[BobRyan]

Let's address this Cain/Abel argument.

How did Cain and Abel know to bring an offering to the Lord in the first place?

Genesis 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.

Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering.
​

Did Abel just get lucky and guess a blood offering would be accepted by God? Or did Abel know ahead of time?

God even warned Cain before he slew his brother.

Genesis 4:6-8 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Strong's H2403 sin (ḥaṭṭā'āṯ): sin, sinful​

Conclusion: They were intimately aware of the definition of sin according to God's law, which includes Sabbath observance. They knew not to murder, they knew the correct offering, they knew right from wrong, because God spoke to them and reasoned with them directly, as has been shown in Genesis 4:6-8.

Good point.

God says to Cain in Gen 4 "sin is at your door but you must master it" -- but it is only later in Moses' book that we see that murder is sin.

God says Noah was to take clean animals by pairs of 7 - in Gen 7... but we don't see the definition for "Clean animal" in Moses' books until Lev 11.

Gen 2:1-3 by contrast tells us that God right then and there sanctified "made holy" the 7th day and Ex 20:11 confirms that this alone makes the day binding on mankind. So that Jesus then says in Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath MADE for MANKIND and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" which speaks to the "making of both" that we see in Gen 2:1-3

Bringing us to the "Creation Sabbath origin" point.

 

[Leaf473]

And I know that the creation Sabbath origin comes from Gen 2:1-3 and is confirmed in Ex 20:11

Well, the Sabbath day originates in Genesis 2. We agree on that.

Peace, my man!

 

[Leaf473]

Were Adam and Eve told to remember that they were slaves in Egypt? Probably not. That would be a later addition.

If the Sabbath commandment can be added to, then how would we know what form it took in the garden of Eden?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Were Adam and Eve told to remember that they were slaves in Egypt? Probably not. That would be a later addition.

If the Sabbath commandment can be added to, then how would we know what form it took in the garden of Eden?

A statement is not the same as a commandment.

How do we know the sky is blue? At some point we should trust what has been explained in the scriptures.

 

[Leaf473]

A statement is not the same as a commandment.

How do we know the sky is blue? At some point we should trust what has been explained in the scriptures.

Well, in Deuteronomy 5 it says
Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm.

That looks to me like an imperative, a commandment... I don't think it's just a statement.

And Amen to trusting what has been explained in the scriptures! All things related to life and godliness, I think it says.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Well, in Deuteronomy 5 it says
Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm.

That looks to me like an imperative, a commandment... I don't think it's a just statement.

And Amen to trusting what has been explained in the scriptures! All things related to life and godliness, I think it says.

Which is different than the Sabbath commandment , that we see as a memorial to God’s creation. Deut 5 is Moses repeating what God said in Exodus 20.

We are all salves to sin and only God can bring us through to His Promise Land, by faith to believe what He asks of us is for our own good. We need to place our trust in Him, what He asks and not on what we think or feel is right.

 

[Leaf473]

Which is different than the Sabbath commandment , that we see as a memorial to God’s creation. Deut 5 is Moses repeating what God said in Exodus 20.

We are all salves to sin and only God can bring us through to His Promise Land, by faith to believe what He asks of us is for our own good. We need to place our trust in Him, what He asks and not on what we think or feel is right.

Yes, in Deuteronomy 5, Moses is repeating some things that God said in Exodus 20. He repeats the Sabbath commandment imo.

But some things are different. In Deuteronomy 5, we are told to remember that we were slaves in Egypt.

We definitely want to place our trust in him and do what he asks.

If you remember being a slave in Egypt, that's great. If you change that to remembering that you were a slave to sin, then that's keeping the principle of the commandment, not the letter imo.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, in Deuteronomy 5, Moses is repeating some things that God said in Exodus 20. He repeats the Sabbath commandment imo.

But some things are different. In Deuteronomy 5, we are told to remember that we were slaves in Egypt.

We definitely want to place our trust in him and do what he asks.

If you remember being a slave in Egypt, that's great. If you change that to remembering that you were a slave to sin, then that's keeping the principle of the commandment, not the letter imo.

Yes, that was Moses reminding the Israelites what God has done for them, which is why it was Moses is speaking to them in Duet 5 and not God. God spoke in Exodus 20.

You are free to believe what you want, no one seems to convince you otherwise so if you think a commandment of God is not literal, you will have to wait and find out what Jesus says about that when He comes. God said He shows mercy to those who love Him and keep His commandments Exodus 20:6, not the principle of the commandments that can be interpreted as not having to really keep them or keep what is suitable to me. We could apply this to everything in scripture so in the end sadly we are not even following God.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes, that was Moses reminding the Israelites what God has done for them, which is why it was Moses is speaking to them in Duet 5 and not God. God spoke in Exodus 20.

You are free to believe what you want, no one seems to convince you otherwise so if you think a commandment of God is not literal, you will have to wait and find out what Jesus says about that when He comes. God said He shows mercy to those who love Him and keep His commandments Exodus 20:6, not the principle of the commandments that can be interpreted as not having to really keep them or keep what is suitable to me. We could apply this to everything in scripture so in the end we are not really following God.

Deuteronomy 5 goes on to say
These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly on the mountain out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. He wrote them on two tables of stone, and gave them to me.

That sounds like the same tablets in Exodus 20 to me.

I'm open to hearing what the scriptures, all of the scriptures, have to say. And I know you are, as well!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Deuteronomy 5 goes on to say
These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly on the mountain out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. He wrote them on two tables of stone, and gave them to me.

That sounds like the same tablets in Exodus 20 to me.

I'm open to hearing what the scriptures, all of the scriptures, have to say. And I know you are, as well!

It is the same tablet of stone, the Ten Commandments, I did not say otherwise. Moses repeated what God said from Exodus 20. if you think what Moses reminded them of what God did for them before going into the Ten Commandments somehow deletes the commandments, or that we should not take literal, that can be your free choice and something Jesus might ask about upon His Coming.

 

[Leaf473]

And relating some things back to the thread topic,

If it's true that

A statement is not the same as a commandment.

then the statements made in Genesis 2 regarding the seventh day are not commandments.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

And relating some things back to the thread topic,

If it's true that

then the statements made in Genesis 2 regarding the seventh day are not commandments.

We see the Sabbath is a commandment from Exodus 20:8-11 that relates directly back to Genesis 2.

 

[Leaf473]

It is the same tablet of stone, the Ten Commandments, I did not say otherwise. Moses repeated what God said from Exodus 20. if you think what Moses reminded them of what God did for them before going into the Ten Commandments somehow deletes the commandments, or that we should not take literal, that can be your free choice and something I am sure Jesus will ask about upon His Coming.

Yes, Deuteronomy 5 is the same 10 commandments. And it says these are the words that God wrote on the stones:

You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm: therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

And that's part of the ten commandments in Deuteronomy 5.

 

[Leaf473]

We see the Sabbath is a commandment from Exodus 20:8-11 that relates directly back to Genesis 2.

Yes, it relates back to Genesis 2. We agree on that

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, Deuteronomy 5 is the same 10 commandments. And it says these are the words that God wrote on the stones:

You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm: therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

And that's part of the ten commandments in Deuteronomy 5.

Thats Moses repeating the Ten Commandments- it is Moses speaking.

This is God speaking and what was written on stone by God's finger. Exodus 31:18

Exodus 20

20 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

 

[Leaf473]

Thats Moses repeating the Ten Commandments- it is Moses speaking.

This is God speaking and what was written on stone by God's finger. Exodus 31:18

Exodus 20

20 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

Well, we read in Deuteronomy 5
These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly on the mountain out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. He wrote them on two tables of stone, and gave them to me.

It's possible God wrote both sets of words on the stones.

Or it's possible that what God wrote on the stones was 10 words, words such as Idolatry, stealing, Sabbath. And both Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5 are editorial commentaries on those words.

Those are the two possibilities I can think of.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Well, we read in Deuteronomy 5
These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly on the mountain out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. He wrote them on two tables of stone, and gave them to me.

It's possible God wrote both sets of words on the stones.

Or it's possible that what God wrote on the stones was 10 words, words such as Idolatry, stealing, Sabbath. And both Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5 are editorial commentaries on those words.

Those are the two possibilities I can think of.

It is still Moses reviewing what God said in Duet 5 and God speaking in Exodus 20.

God wrote the EXACT words from the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 20 twice, because the first one Moses broke because when he came down the mountain the Israelites were worshiping false gods.

Deuteronomy 10:4
And He wrote on the tablets according to the first writing, the Ten Commandments, which the Lord had spoken to you in the mountain from the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly; and the Lord gave them to me.

 

[Leaf473]

It is still Moses reviewing what God said in Duet 5 and God speaking in Exodus 20.

God wrote the EXACT words from the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 20 twice, because the first one Moses broke because when he came down the mountain the Israelites were worshiping false gods.

Deuteronomy 10:4
And He wrote on the tablets according to the first writing, the Ten Commandments, which the Lord had spoken to you in the mountain from the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly; and the Lord gave them to me.

Yes, Moses is reviewing the situation.

He says that God said to remember that you were slaves in Egypt.

And he says that those words - about being slaves in Egypt - were written on the stone tablets.

So there's a bit of a difficulty in putting it all together imo.

That's why I offered two possibilities for resolving the issue in post #58.